Tfw 158’s

[williamn]

Have they given up maintaining them? Now been on 5 different units and the A/C hasn’t worked on any of them!

 

[simonmpoulton]

I’m not convinced the AC has ever worked properly on any 158 that hasn’t been retrofitted with a different AC system!

 

[rjames87]

Every one that I have been on recently has had the windows open.

 

[Flying Snail]

I’m not convinced the AC has ever worked properly on any 158 that hasn’t been retrofitted with a different AC system!

They had the Liebherr system fitted haven't they?

Every one that I have been on recently has had the windows open.

IMO the presence of "emergency ventilation" is a big part of the problem. Because broken AC can be solved by opening windows the maintenance of the AC can be left as a nice to have option rather than a requirement.

The only operator that ever seemed to manage to reliably run most of their 158/9 with functioning AC was SWT.

 

[williamn]

IMO the presence of "emergency ventilation" is a big part of the problem. Because broken AC can be solved by opening windows the maintenance of the AC can be left as a nice to have option rather than a requirement.

There’s probably something in this, tho I would have been very glad of openable windows on Pendolinos on occasion!

My count of units with broken A/C is now up to 7!

 

[Blindtraveler]

If these units or indeed any 158 outside of southwestern Railway land is to have a long-term future career. This kit needs ripping out and replacing with the air chill system as found on the Chilton, turbos, etc

 

[Vanmanyo]

If these units or indeed any 158 outside of southwestern Railway land is to have a long-term future career. This kit needs ripping out and replacing with the air chill system as found on the Chilton, turbos, etc

AC works well on the chiltern 165s, but it has a habit to leak and flood the cabin so that would have to be fixed! 158 AC has always been poor though - I doubt there is much incentive to replace the AC kit now seeing as they are ending their working lives (at least with TFW).

 

[LittleRedTrain]

My TfW 158 from Birmingham to Aberystwyth yesterday morning seemed to have working AC (or at least the windows were shut and it wasn't getting too stuffy onboard even though busy).

The one back the other way had windows wide open as usual, and was held at Shrewsbury while they got fitters to sort out an issue with the saloon lighting. (Although it was light outside at the time, the guard didn't want to be coming back from Brum in the dark with only emergency lights, especially with the usual Saturday-night passengers).

Ultimately it got fixed and we left about 10mins late, but died again on the way south, and I see the return working from Birmingham International was cancelled 'due to a train fault'.

Couldn't get any power from the USB sockets on either unit!

 

[Western 52]

The power sockets rarely seem to work on TfW 158s. Or 150s. Seems better on their 153s but only table seats have sockets, and some have none.

 

[craigybagel]

They had the Liebherr system fitted haven't they?



IMO the presence of "emergency ventilation" is a big part of the problem. Because broken AC can be solved by opening windows the maintenance of the AC can be left as a nice to have option rather than a requirement.

The only operator that ever seemed to manage to reliably run most of their 158/9 with functioning AC was SWT.

Still the original EBAC system, which is still as unreliable as ever. It's nothing new.

If these units or indeed any 158 outside of southwestern Railway land is to have a long-term future career. This kit needs ripping out and replacing with the air chill system as found on the Chilton, turbos, etc

They're due for imminent replacement. If they do have a future long term career (and I'm not entirely convinced they do, they're pretty knackered), it's not at TfW.

 

[nwales58]

My (befuddled and possibly wrong) memory is that they were originally pressure ventilation with limited cooling. Back in the 90s that seemed wonderful, we put up with far greater in-vehicle temperatures on hot days back then, and very quiet compared to what they replaced.

At some point air conditioning (humidity control, as against heating+simple cooling) was fitted, but when? If the kit is 20+ years old unreliability would hardly be surprising.

 

[Ash Bridge]

My (befuddled and possibly wrong) memory is that they were originally pressure ventilation with limited cooling. Back in the 90s that seemed wonderful, we put up with far greater in-vehicle temperatures on hot days back then, and very quiet compared to what they replaced.

At some point air conditioning (humidity control, as against heating+simple cooling) was fitted, but when? If the kit is 20+ years old unreliability would hardly be surprising.

I’m sure the 158s were fitted with full AC from new unless my memory is also playing up?

 

[nwales58]

Found a definitive answer about the systems, on railforums inevitably:

Class 158 air-con

This extract is copied over from a reply on another thread; it is undoubtably the most informed and thorough answer to the perpetual question of why is Class 158 air-con always crap :| I thought it was well worth sharing as others on this thread have asked this question many a time. [If the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Ebac and Liebherr were retro-fits to the original system. Original system had cooling, whether that consitutes 'conditioning' needs an expert (humidity control?), my memory is that it was called pressure ventilation, not air conditioning, until more recently but I could be wrong.

 

[vicbury]

Found a definitive answer about the systems, on railforums inevitably:

Class 158 air-con

This extract is copied over from a reply on another thread; it is undoubtably the most informed and thorough answer to the perpetual question of why is Class 158 air-con always crap :| I thought it was well worth sharing as others on this thread have asked this question many a time. [If the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Ebac and Liebherr were retro-fits to the original system. Original system had cooling, whether that consitutes 'conditioning' needs an expert (humidity control?), my memory is that it was called pressure ventilation, not air conditioning, until more recently but I could be wrong.

Pressure ventilation? I have never been on a 158 with sufficient ventilation (GWR or TfW), let alone functioning air conditioning!

 

[williamn]

On my way home from Wales now on my 8th 158 with no aircon. Absolutely roasting!

And then thanks to my train terminating early at Shrewsbury I got to sample a 9th with no ac. Honestly, tfw are a terrible poster boy for nationalised railways, every single experience is terrible.

 

[EnriqueEspaña]

On my way home from Wales now on my 8th 158 with no aircon. Absolutely roasting!

And then thanks to my train terminating early at Shrewsbury I got to sample a 9th with no ac. Honestly, tfw are a terrible poster boy for nationalised railways, every single experience is terrible.

Make sure to let us know when you get on the 10th! By the sounds of it, shouldnt be long. I'd ask if you've raised a complaint, but they're not very good at responding, so have you tried tweeting them for a response?

 

[williamn]

Make sure to let us know when you get on the 10th! By the sounds of it, shouldnt be long. I'd ask if you've raised a complaint, but they're not very good at responding, so have you tried tweeting them for a response?

I was lucky enough to be on Avanti and Southern after, all with aircon. Only the Victoria line was hotter than TfW!

 

[simonmpoulton]

At the end of the day if you don’t complain then nothing will be done about it! I remember years ago when Arriva were in charge that there was one summer where an effort was made to get them working better - obviously this hasn’t continued with TFW

 

[Lurcheroo]

On my way home from Wales now on my 8th 158 with no aircon. Absolutely roasting!

And then thanks to my train terminating early at Shrewsbury I got to sample a 9th with no ac. Honestly, tfw are a terrible poster boy for nationalised railways, every single experience is terrible.

At the end of the day if you don’t complain then nothing will be done about it! I remember years ago when Arriva were in charge that there was one summer where an effort was made to get them working better - obviously this hasn’t continued with TFW

So the cooling system, as craigeybagel says is EBAC and above a certain point (I want to say 28°C off the top of my head) will only reduce the inside temperature by a maximum of 6°C below the outside temperature.

if a train is busy the vestibule doors may get isolated to the open position which will mean the aircon is less effective and also, the aircon can be working but it still feels hit and stuffy so people will ask for the windows to be opened and eventually you give in and open them and then the aircon is rendered ineffective.
I took a train to a Pwllheli the other day that had reasonable aircon so they do work.

I was told (fairly reliably but have no proof) quite sometime before TFW came to exist, it was looked at refitting a better system but it would have required the entire roof to be removed and somewhat redesigned, so you can easily imagine how that wasn’t going to happen.

As for TFW they have invested in reliability modifications to the compressor bearings and condenser replacements.
They have employed a full time HVAC engineer at the Machynlleth depot and according to their own figures, 85% of the fleet have ‘serviceable units’.

Hope this provides actual answers to some of the speculation.

Additionally, 197’s have had some HVAC issues but these seem to be getting sorted so hopefully that will mean they have decently good and also reliable AC for the summer time.

tfw are a terrible poster boy for nationalised railways, every single experience is terrible.

The whole fleet is going through a major overhaul, pretty much anything old is being tossed out and all brand new is being brought in, unfortunately it brings its own headaches and TFW can’t really be held accountable for the pitfalls of 30+ year old rolling stock.
They have also acquired an additional 4 MK4 rakes to provide a fantastic offering between Cardiff and Manchester (I would highly recommend you check out 1st class and the onboard chef if you ever get the opportunity. You can get some very good value advanced tickets sometimes).

TFW have had 0 strikes days as the company have come to the table and negotiated with the trade unions to resolve issues as needed and even managed to strike up a 3 year pay deal for both drivers and Conductors (now re-named Train Managers as part of that deal) which includes bringing Sundays into the working week to ensure a more robust Sunday service the doesn’t rely on overtime and because train crew aren’t necessarily required to work so much extra (although some do really like the overtime pay!!) the chances for operational incidents to occur due to fatigue is reduced, therefore reducing the chances of disruption and creating a safer railway (which is already by far the safest mode of transport in the UK).

To add to this TFW have also trained an absurd amount of train Crew in the past 3 years, 300+ drivers a year for multiple years running and not far off as many train managers as well.
To do this they have created a significantly improved training centre in Chester (and possibly Cardiff but I have never been there) which I had the joy of spending 3 months at over the winter just gone for my driver training and it’s genuinely a fantastic facility (I kind of miss it)!
So you very rarely see TFW trains cancelled due to a lack of train crew.

It’s not all sunshine and roses I can totally appreciate (as I have often been stood on platforms or on trains with very unhappy passengers for what ever reason) but There’s probably even more great stuff I’ve not mentioned but I hope you get the point, being nationalised is doing great things for the railways of wales and I certainly don’t think they would be in as good a spot as they are now, or have the even greater improvements on the horizon if it was controlled by the Westminster government as many other TOC’s are.

 

[The exile]

I’m sure the 158s were fitted with full AC from new unless my memory is also playing up?

And it was p*** poor from the word go.

 

[williamn]

Hope this provides actual answers to some of the speculation.

I wasn’t speculation in terms of my experience. It’s a fact that 9/9 trains I travelled on in the last week have had no air con and windows open, and it hasn’t even been particularly hot.

I know that tfw are going through a huge fleet renewal but unfortunately from a passenger point of view most of my experiences with them for the last few years have been abysmal, with overcrowding and unsuitable stock substitutions - I particularly shudder at the memory of riding a 150 from Manchester to Carmarthen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And it was p*** poor from the word go.

It worked quite well on CFC refrigerants when they were built but has never worked well (same with the 166) with modern refrigerants which while they avoid the ozone layer damage are massively less effective in a system not designed for them. It's not a TfW thing, it's a BR 1990s DMU thing.

 

[py_megapixel]

if a train is busy the vestibule doors may get isolated to the open position which will mean the aircon is less effective and also, the aircon can be working but it still feels hit and stuffy so people will ask for the windows to be opened and eventually you give in and open them and then the aircon is rendered ineffective.

Excessive wear of the AC system caused by it constantly cooling warm air pulled in from outside is often cited as an issue on trains with opening windows and AC. Would it be possible, I wonder, to put microswitches on the windows which disable the AC when opened. Of course the AC would still be ineffective with the windows open, but at least when the windows were closed it would start working again.

 

[43096]

It's not a TfW thing, it's a BR 1990s DMU thing.

It’s a result of legislation changes.

 

[nwales58]

Picking up on:

Honestly, tfw are a terrible poster boy for nationalised railways, every single experience is terrible.

The passenger experience can be bad on 158s, especially Cambrian Coast in the summer, but no worse than under franchising. This tells you very little about 'nationalised' railways.

The frequent changes of plan during fleet replacement and the deep south modernisation tells another story: When the plan (fleet, not daily operations) is not going to work TfW can change it rapidly. Under DfT franchising or management contracts the operator does what is in the contract, even when it becomes clear that has problems or is plain stupid. Changing the contract takes time and money. The welsh government gives TfW objectives and a budget, TfW rail is better placed to adapt quickly in the way a wholly-commercial business would. That the chief executive is a career civil servant is a plus for plugging into its paymaster's decision making (despite some negatives not worth going into here).

So although the current situation is a mess in places it would be the same or probably worse under the DfT franchising model. Imagine what DfT decision making on the loco-hauled fleet or the Borderlands debacle would have been like, especially in the supposedly-commercial-in-reality-microcontrolled franchising days.

Structure, more than ownership, is what matters as the saying goes. I have confidence things really will get better eventually despite the current situation.

Remember in recent years there have been quite a few days when the only trains at Manchester Piccadilly were TfW. TfW seem to have agreed 7 day working with its staff so that trains can run 7 days a week. Obvious really. Several TOCs under private ownership+franchising then Dft-managed contracts had not, so it's not franchise versus nationalised.

To be clear: I am outside all this (retired) and have no axe to grind supporting anyone. I have been using Cambrian Coast, Conwy Valley and north coast services all year round, more than most on these forums, for 30 years so I suffer more. The reliability of a service that gets you home during an ice storm or serious flooding (thanks to all the Machynlleth+Pwllheli people, crews, fitters, network rail, arranging Lloyds and Mach Taxis when needed) is more important to locals than getting sweaty in summer.

Back on the thread: the 158s will improve when they are retired. Does anyone really want money diverted from something else to be spent on them now?

 

[Lurcheroo]

I wasn’t speculation in terms of my experience. It’s a fact that 9/9 trains I travelled on in the last week have had no air con and windows open, and it hasn’t even been particularly hot.

Sorry, I thought it went without saying that ‘an experience’ doesn’t constitute as speculation. But what TFW do or don’t do with their 158’s was speculation which, I hope I cleared up to some extent.

It really doesn’t take much for them to feel warm, and as I said the aircon May actually be functional but if the windows have been opened then it won’t do anything noticeable.
Unless you have been into the cupboard and checked the EBAC system, you don’t know if the AC is working or not.

Excessive wear of the AC system caused by it constantly cooling warm air pulled in from outside is often cited as an issue on trains with opening windows and AC. Would it be possible, I wonder, to put microswitches on the windows which disable the AC when opened. Of course the AC would still be ineffective with the windows open, but at least when the windows were closed it would start working again.

That’s a very good point, it could be possible, especially if new seals were out on the windows as some of them aren’t worth being shut even when they are locked haha.

It really doesn’t take much for them to feel warm, and as I said the aircon May actually be functional but if the windows have been opened then it won’t do anything noticeable.

Just want to say, I took a 158 onto the depot at Machynlleth so obviously void of any passengers.
Walking through, both coaches all windows open and vestibule doors isolated open, when I checked the AC, lovely cold air coming out of the roof vents on one coach only. Closed up the windows and vestibule doors and just 5 mins later it was noticeably cooler so the AC does work, but it does need a chance.

 

[simonmpoulton]

Purely an observation as I took a quick hop to Wrexham from Chester this morning to watch the 507's going off to Sims. 158830 and 158829 - they both had working air con blowing out cool air but the vestibule doors were isolated open and the windows were also open on 3 of the 4 carriages - obviously not going to be able to work properly! 158838 on the way back - same thing windows open but the ac was pumping out cold air!
Still a pleasant and smooth ride as always with the 158's - it's a real shame the 197's are replacing them!

 

[43096]

Purely an observation as I took a quick hop to Wrexham from Chester this morning to watch the 507's going off to Sims. 158830 and 158829 - they both had working air con blowing out cool air but the vestibule doors were isolated open and the windows were also open on 3 of the 4 carriages - obviously not going to be able to work properly! 158838 on the way back - same thing windows open but the ac was pumping out cold air!

That's been one of the biggest problems with 158 aircon since day one - crews opening the windows when not needed. Ask the maintainers and they'll tell you it is probably the single biggest issue.

 

[Lurcheroo]

That's been one of the biggest problems with 158 aircon since day one - crews opening the windows when not needed. Ask the maintainers and they'll tell you it is probably the single biggest issue.

I’ve been through on warm days and closed windows usually to the annoyance of passengers, usually only until the aircon begins to have some effect hahah!!

 

[slowroad]

That's been one of the biggest problems with 158 aircon since day one - crews opening the windows when not needed. Ask the maintainers and they'll tell you it is probably the single biggest issue.

If this is right, I genuinely don’t understand it. In my job I get lots of instructions from my managers and I carry them out. In this case are the instructions not given?