TfW 15x/17x withdrawals (17x now finished)

[sd0733]

There seem to be very few 175's in service today despite there being 7 booked diagrams.

Seems to just be 175102/113/115 on 175 diagrams. 108 is covering for a 197 and there's 3x150s and a 158 on the other 4 175 diagrams.

 

[MP393]

175102 has failed for the second day in a row, this time at Piccadilly with a door fault with 1V38 09:30 Picc - Carmarthen. Ran empty to Shrewsbury and is now on Abbey Foregate.

 

[Western 52]

Looks like only 113 out today west of Swansea

 

[33017]

There are two 175s out today and both are working west of Swansea.

175110
1V91 05.33 Holyhead - Cardiff
1B33 10.06 Cardiff - Milford
1B22 13.00 Milford - Cardiff

175113
1K01 04.46 Chester - Crewe
1V32 05.58 Crewe - Carmarthen
1B60 10.58 Carmarthen - Cardiff
1B39 13.48 Cardiff - Milford
1B64 17.00 Milford - Cardiff
1W64 20.05 Cardiff - Manchester

 

[Jez]

There are two 175s out today and both are working west of Swansea.

175110
1V91 05.33 Holyhead - Cardiff
1B33 10.06 Cardiff - Milford
1B22 13.00 Milford - Cardiff

175113
1K01 04.46 Chester - Crewe
1V32 05.58 Crewe - Carmarthen
1B60 10.58 Carmarthen - Cardiff
1B39 13.48 Cardiff - Milford
1B64 17.00 Milford - Cardiff
1W64 20.05 Cardiff - Manchester

I wonder what the reason is for the 1700 Milford to Cardiff and 2005 Cardiff to Manchester being 2 separate services, given its the same unit. It used to be a 158 I believe that did the 2005 Cardiff to Manchester as a way of swapping them between South Wales and Machynlleth . But now they are the same diagram it could be a through service.

 

[185]

I still don't see the locos+mk4 coaches as a long term suitable alternative, especially given the higher fuel cost.

We're replacing a 3-car 175 with a 2 and a third of standard - with a mostly empty 1st class coach but for two or three railway managers on passes, including one TFW exec who stays in Sth Wales for the working week then travels home in 1st Class back up to NW England at weekends... almost her own private carriage, whilst people are sat on the floor in vestibules (Corbyn style).

To make it viable, these rakes need an extra standard coach, far too many now seeing full & standing in 2⅓ coaches of standard class.

 

[Plasmanoodle]

I still don't see the locos+mk4 coaches as a long term suitable alternative, especially given the higher fuel cost.

We're replacing a 3-car 175 with a 2 and a third of standard - with a mostly empty 1st class coach but for two or three railway managers on passes, including one TFW exec who stays in Sth Wales for the working week then travels home in 1st Class back up to NW England at weekends... almost her own private carriage, whilst people are sat on the floor in vestibules (Corbyn style).

To make it viable, these rakes need an extra standard coach, far too many now seeing full & standing in 2⅓ coaches of standard class.

There is already a 5 car set out (3 1/2 cars standard, 1 car first class) and about, which I believe is due into passenger service this month or next.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

There is already a 5 car set out (3 1/2 cars standard, 1 car first class) and about, which I believe is due into passenger service this month or next.

Next month - mid October I think.

 

[Plodster]

.

 

[sd0733]

with a mostly empty 1st class coach but for two or three railway managers on passes, including one TFW exec who stays in Sth Wales for the working week then travels home in 1st Class back up to NW England at weekends... almost her own private carriage, whilst people are sat on the floor in vestibules (Corbyn style).

That's a long way from where First class runs in reality. Yes there's the odd train with loads of seats to fill in First but a lot are picking up quite well and is covering its cost already despite limited advertising and some poor availability of catering and/or sets. It's starting from an almost zero base so was never going to Fill from Day 1.

Granted the 4 car sets with 2 and a half Standard coaches aren't enough, the 5th car should make a big difference to capacity.

There is already a 5 car set out (3 1/2 cars standard, 1 car first class) and about, which I believe is due into passenger service this month or next.

23rd October the first 5 car is planned now. Hopefully all sets Will then follow by December timetable to allow the 5th diagram to start then.

 

[185]

There is already a 5 car set out (3 1/2 cars standard, 1 car first class) and about, which I believe is due into passenger service this month or next.

Brilliant. Knew it had been mooted previously, but wasn't sure if it was going ahead. It really needs it.

 

[33017]

I still don't see the locos+mk4 coaches as a long term suitable alternative, especially given the higher fuel cost.

We're replacing a 3-car 175 with a 2 and a third of standard - with a mostly empty 1st class coach but for two or three railway managers on passes, including one TFW exec who stays in Sth Wales for the working week then travels home in 1st Class back up to NW England at weekends... almost her own private carriage, whilst people are sat on the floor in vestibules (Corbyn style).

To make it viable, these rakes need an extra standard coach, far too many now seeing full & standing in 2⅓ coaches of standard class.

A 67 plus 5 Mk4s uses around 3,500 litres of fuel on an 800 mile diagram. A 3 car 175 running the same mileage uses 2,500. Pound for pound you get better mileage from the 67.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A 67 plus 5 Mk4s uses around 3,500 litres of fuel on an 800 mile diagram. A 3 car 175 running the same mileage uses 2,500. Pound for pound you get better mileage from the 67.

Yes but that doesn’t take away from the fact their (comparatively) space inefficient layout on a MK4 reduces capacity, as was being said.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Yes but that doesn’t take away from the fact their (comparatively) space inefficient layout on a 175 reduces capacity, as was being said.

Extrapolation on those maths puts that to bed though.

My basic maths gives 4150 for a five car 175 which doesn't have the same facilities such as buffet so even whilst being space inefficient surely has more passenger space than a Mk.4 set with a buffet etc?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A 67 plus 5 Mk4s uses around 3,500 litres of fuel on an 800 mile diagram. A 3 car 175 running the same mileage uses 2,500. Pound for pound you get better mileage from the 67.

Extrapolation on those maths puts that to bed though.

My basic maths gives 4150 for a five car 175 which doesn't have the same facilities such as buffet so even whilst being space inefficient surely has more passenger space than a Mk.4 set with a buffet etc?

Sorry I meant MK4 not 175.

 

[Northerngirl]

That's a long way from where First class runs in reality. Yes there's the odd train with loads of seats to fill in First but a lot are picking up quite well and is covering its cost already despite limited advertising and some poor availability of catering and/or sets. It's starting from an almost zero base so was never going to Fill from Day 1.

Granted the 4 car sets with 2 and a half Standard coaches aren't enough, the 5th car should make a big difference to capacity.


23rd October the first 5 car is planned now. Hopefully all sets Will then follow by December timetable to allow the 5th diagram to start then.

I'm not even sure that a 5th will fix it, I've not been any long journeys on them, but especially around Manchester they are absolutely cramped, people standing in everywhere but the empty 1st class compartment. Another thing I've noticed is especially in this weather, the buffet puts out so much heat its unbearable. I thank they need to put the 1st class in the buffet car and have 4 standard, that would help alot

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Sorry I meant MK4 not 175.

But either way it shows that five cars upwards is more efficient with loco haulage.

It doesn't take into account the extra length and signalling, but does put passengers per lt/kg of fuel favourably to the LCHS

Edit: forgot to mention 197s may change this, but we need to see numbers to confirm

 

[sd0733]

I'm not even sure that a 5th will fix it, I've not been any long journeys on them, but especially around Manchester they are absolutely cramped, people standing in everywhere but the empty 1st class compartment. Another thing I've noticed is especially in this weather, the buffet puts out so much heat its unbearable. I thank they need to put the 1st class in the buffet car and have 4 standard, that would help alot

Time will tell on that one.
First Is far from empty on many services and new things are being introduced to push it further, there's no way the SV has anywhere near enough seats as First on some services. It also means there's no First class wheelchair space and Not having any sockets. The plan is to push and increase the use of First class not kill it off.
The warm SVs are due to faulty air con on 2 sets the Last couple of days. The Aircon in those coaches is being upgraded and replaced and passengers on some sets have been complaining this week that its chilly.

 

[Rhydgaled]

But either way it shows that five cars upwards is more efficient with loco haulage.

It doesn't take into account the extra length and signalling, but does put passengers per lt/kg of fuel favourably to the LCHS

Edit: forgot to mention 197s may change this, but we need to see numbers to confirm

I found this FOI release from Northern which may help. This gives fuel consumption data for the 195s which I assume won't be vastly different from the 197s. Unfortunately, Northern don't appear to track fuel consumption by subclass so any useful conclusions are masked by the mix of 2 and 3 coach units.

I'm not even sure that a 5th will fix it, I've not been any long journeys on them, but especially around Manchester they are absolutely cramped, people standing in everywhere but the empty 1st class compartment. Another thing I've noticed is especially in this weather, the buffet puts out so much heat its unbearable. I thank they need to put the 1st class in the buffet car and have 4 standard, that would help alot

Time will tell on that one.
First Is far from empty on many services and new things are being introduced to push it further, there's no way the SV has anywhere near enough seats as First on some services. It also means there's no First class wheelchair space and Not having any sockets. The plan is to push and increase the use of First class not kill it off.
The warm SVs are due to faulty air con on 2 sets the Last couple of days. The Aircon in those coaches is being upgraded and replaced and passengers on some sets have been complaining this week that its chilly.

Of course, the mark 3 sets previously used on 'Gerald' (Holyhead-Cardiff 'premier service') had first class in the buffet car and three full coaches of standard. The orginal BR layout of the mark 4 SV coaches (Service Vehicle / buffet car) was first class as well, with 20 seats, which I believe was the case until GNER's Mallard refurb which saw the buffet car converted to standard (and possibly a standard class vehicle converted to first but I'm not sure on that - I know post-Mallard it was 5.5 coaches of standard and 3 coaches of first but not sure what the standard mark 4 formation was before that, only that there were two non-standard 'Pullman' rakes prior to Mallard with two buffet cars (both with first class seating I believe) and at least three normal first class coaches).

Unfortunately I've not got a seat plan for the Arriva Trains Wales mark 3 buffet cars, can anyone remember how many first class seats were available on 'Gerald'? Would be interesting to compare that to the 20 first class seat which were originally provided in the mark 4 buffet cars.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I found this FOI release from Northern which may help. This gives fuel consumption data for the 195s which I assume won't be vastly different from the 197s. Unfortunately, Northern don't appear to track fuel consumption by subclass so any useful conclusions are masked by the mix of 2 and 3 coach units.


Of course, the mark 3 sets previously used on 'Gerald' (Holyhead-Cardiff 'premier service') had first class in the buffet car and three full coaches of standard. The orginal BR layout of the mark 4 SV coaches (Service Vehicle / buffet car) was first class as well, with 20 seats, which I believe was the case until GNER's Mallard refurb which saw the buffet car converted to standard (and possibly a standard class vehicle converted to first but I'm not sure on that - I know post-Mallard it was 5.5 coaches of standard and 3 coaches of first but not sure what the standard mark 4 formation was before that, only that there were two non-standard 'Pullman' rakes prior to Mallard with two buffet cars (both with first class seating I believe) and at least three normal first class coaches).

Unfortunately I've not got a seat plan for the Arriva Trains Wales mark 3 buffet cars, can anyone remember how many first class seats were available on 'Gerald'? Would be interesting to compare that to the 20 first class seat which were originally provided in the mark 4 buffet cars.

I think it was different for each buffet car... if I remember rightly 10249 had 19 FC seats, the coach most commonly used on 'Gerald'.

 

[50002Superb]

Is this correct?

Realtime Trains | 1D30 0525 Manchester Airport to Llandudno | 09/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 1D30 0525 departure from Manchester Airport to Llandudno on 09/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I thought 111 was dead never to be seen again!?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is this correct?

Realtime Trains | 1D30 0525 Manchester Airport to Llandudno | 09/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 1D30 0525 departure from Manchester Airport to Llandudno on 09/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I thought 111 was dead never to be seen again!?

I believe 111 was the Longsight spare parts that was repaired.

 

[MP393]

Is this correct?

Realtime Trains | 1D30 0525 Manchester Airport to Llandudno | 09/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 1D30 0525 departure from Manchester Airport to Llandudno on 09/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I thought 111 was dead never to be seen again!?

I think that is an error. There are no moves for 175111 to go from Longsight - Chester in the last 30 days I can see on the system, however unless anybody eyeballs it I do not know for certain.

It is possible it’s just a typo, it happened on the Bidston line a few weeks back where a 231 was allocated instead of a 230, obviously very incorrect, but mistakes like that are possible!

 

[anthony263]

Saw 175114 on the 1307 Milford Haven to Cardiff service. Pretty busy but give it credit 114 seemed to be taking it in its stride

 

[MP393]

I think that is an error. There are no moves for 175111 to go from Longsight - Chester in the last 30 days I can see on the system, however unless anybody eyeballs it I do not know for certain.

It is possible it’s just a typo, it happened on the Bidston line a few weeks back where a 231 was allocated instead of a 230, obviously very incorrect, but mistakes like that are possible!

Confirmed as 197111, not 175111.

175111 is still very much at Longsight

 

[Jez]

Saw 175114 on the 1307 Milford Haven to Cardiff service. Pretty busy but give it credit 114 seemed to be taking it in its stride

I'm.on 175114 right now on delayed 1744 Cardiff to Swansea. It's the first 175 I've seen today. In terms of the air conditioning this beats every other train ive had today hands down (197s included!)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm.on 175114 right now on delayed 1744 Cardiff to Swansea. It's the first 175 I've seen today. In terms of the air conditioning this beats every other train ive had today hands down (197s included!)

Very interesting as much as I love 175s they always seem too hot for me.

 

[Jez]

Very interesting as much as I love 175s they always seem too hot for me.

Really? I've always found the 175s great when the air con works properly. There are often hot and cold places in each carriage. On the 197s the guard told people to move from.the front carriage of the 4 car formation (front car of 014) This was noticeably hotter than the other carriages when I walked through so an issue with the air con there. I didnt find 197110 that cool either. 048 and the other carriage of 014 were fine however.

 

[anthony263]

I'm.on 175114 right now on delayed 1744 Cardiff to Swansea. It's the first 175 I've seen today. In terms of the air conditioning this beats every other train ive had today hands down (197s included!)

114 seemed to be pretty busy when it passed however seemed to be taking it in its ztride. Normally in.ghis heat you can hear the fans trying to keep the engines cool however they didn't seem too loud compared to other times I've had 175s passing me

 

[Jez]

114 seemed to be pretty busy when it passed however seemed to be taking it in its ztride. Normally in.ghis heat you can hear the fans trying to keep the engines cool however they didn't seem too loud compared to other times I've had 175s passing me

It was quite busy on the 1744 as the GWR was late and we left before it. But i boarded at the end of Platform 3A and it seemed quieter in this carriage. It did seem very smooth and quiet. I wondered if one of the engines was out.