TFW 2024 Timetable consultation.

[Lurcheroo]

They have never mentioned any sort of improvement on the Shrewsbury - Manchester corridor since Welsh Government took over the franchise.

Yet, they previously mentioned the Welsh Marches line was the only profitable line they operate:

Transport for Wales to shake up train timetables

"Massive" changes to travel patterns since Covid prompt summer review, top official says.

www.bbc.com

So my point stands - and realistically they should be looking to enhancing what is profitable to boost ridership to help subsidise the rest of the network, which 1 additional train set shuttling between Crewe and Shrewsbury would help to achieve - freeing up capacity on the Manchester-South Wales service and enhancing connectivity at Crewe/Shrewsbury to improve the wider network's accessibility.

Well they have, by making all through services 5 cars and adding MK4’s with 1st class and full kitchen capability. And as Craigybagel says, more of these services stopping at Nantwich and Whitchurch.

Let’s just clarify that their profitable route is (was) Cardiff - Manchester. NOT Shrewsbury - Crewe.
What you DONT do is Chuck more services that won’t see many passengers and burn all the profit away.
What you is worth doing, is giving all your services significantly more capacity and have some more call at the 2 busiest stops on that portion of the route in the hours where there’s no Shrewsbury - Crewe shuttle.

It’s not just 1 unit. It’s all the train crew, diagramming alterations and track access charges that must be paid.

A large part of the demand on the route, to Nantwich especially, is from Manchester and not just Crewe - and unfortunately, due to the legacy of the appalling resignalling of the line, you can't give very quick connections between a local and a fast service to get around it that way. To be fair, Manchester - Cardiff will still get every second service running more limited stop (Crewe - Shrewsbury - Ludlow), and Nantwich & Whitchurch will still get a ~hourly service alternating between Crewe and Manchester, it does seem like a decent compromise, and a much better investment of limited resources than in running an hourly local service.

Sounds like as bout as good a compromise as could be hoped for really.

What strikes me is that the proposed timetables have complete disregard to connections. I've raised it before but users of the HOWL in south Shropshire / East Powys would be prevented from making journeys to Hereford / S. Wales as the connections at Craven Arms are completely unreasonable / excessively long in the morning and evening. This will have demonstrable adverse implications for students travelling to Hereford Sixth Form who rely on the current satisfactory connection at Craven Arms. Hopefully they can review this...

In the consultation There is a question specifically about connections and a question specifically talking about local / regional considerations and gives example of class times.
Make sure you respond and give that info to them.

 

[Jez]

A large part of the demand on the route, to Nantwich especially, is from Manchester and not just Crewe - and unfortunately, due to the legacy of the appalling resignalling of the line, you can't give very quick connections between a local and a fast service to get around it that way. To be fair, Manchester - Cardiff will still get every second service running more limited stop (Crewe - Shrewsbury - Ludlow), and Nantwich & Whitchurch will still get a ~hourly service alternating between Crewe and Manchester, it does seem like a decent compromise, and a much better investment of limited resources than in running an hourly local service.

Fair enough and I suppose its difficult to please both long distance passengers and those from local stops who want a direct service to Manchester. Its a pity there isnt a path for a second Manchester service which could be all stops Shrewsbury to Manchester with the fast one just calling at Crewe, Wilmslow and Stockport.

 

[Topological]

To be fair, the marginal impact of calls between Shrewsbury and Crewe is small.

It is the impact of only having 2 carriages that is far more pressing, especially those carriages are a 150.

Just to get a regular 3 car service between Manchester and Cardiff would be a welcome step. That is not a timetable thing though, it is an allocation thing.

If the choice is 197/1 calling at all stations between Shrewsbury and Crewe (including Prees et al) then that will always beat a 150 that doesnt'.

 

[Krokodil]

They have never mentioned any sort of improvement on the Shrewsbury - Manchester corridor since Welsh Government took over the franchise.

Have you missed those Mk4 sets and the future plan to run 5-car 197s?

 

[Topological]

Have you missed those Mk4 sets and the future plan to run 5-car 197s?

Or the regular 150 or 153x2 combinations for when the Mk4 breaks down?

The Mk4 vanity project may be an improvement to people who like 30+ year-old English cast-offs, but for those who want a reliable service they are far from an improvement. Not one day has the full 2 hourly service from Cardiff ran, it is not even planned to because the 06:35 and 14:50(ish) from Cardiff are not even booked to be Mk4.

An improvement would be a regular service that turns up and has space now, or indeed at any point since the "improvement" of replacing the 175s began.

Normal people don't want a whole carriage of first class and a buffet within the 5 (and remember many have that within 4). Yes the remaining standard class has more seats than a 3 car 197 (in the correct standard only formation), but a 5 car 197 will offer more standard seats so would be better for ALL the services.

What regular users of the Marches see only too clearly is that announcements of jam tomorrow with TfW really just means more mess today.

 

[Krokodil]

Or the regular 150 or 153x2 combinations for when the Mk4 breaks down?

The previous poster was complaining that since taking over from ATW, TfW had no plans to make improvements to Shrewsbury-Manchester. I simply pointed out that there were improvements planned, some of which had already happened. Looking at yesterday's allocations, there were no 150s about, and the only pair of 153s were deputising for a 197.

 

[Envoy]

The market to South Wales would be tiny. Nearly everyone will either use the bus to Cardiff, park at Merthyr Tydfil, Ebbw Vale Parkway or Abergavenny for a train to Cardiff, or simply drive the whole way.

The connections at Craven Arms matter as a reasonable connection is likely to attract tourists to do the southern Wales circular route including The Marches, Heart of Wales and SWML - whether clockwise or anti-clockwise.

Most students can’t drive and don’t have cars.

 

[Topological]

The previous poster was complaining that since taking over from ATW, TfW had no plans to make improvements to Shrewsbury-Manchester. I simply pointed out that there were improvements planned, some of which had already happened. Looking at yesterday's allocations, there were no 150s about, and the only pair of 153s were deputising for a 197.

The 197 was presumably deputising for one of the missing Mk4 (even if it was only deputising for the missing Mk4 diagram is the one that is still not officially diagrammed despite all the rubbish about a 2-hourly service)

I agree it is harsh to say TfW have no plans, but it is very fair to say they had the wrong plans and that the plans are delivering a daily mess on the Marches that does little for Shrewsbury to Manchester over the past 2 years.

Open it out to Swansea to Manchester and the whole thing is a disaster, about to become even worse.

 

[Cestrian21]

I think you may have missed most of what has been said. We would all love improvements. And so would TFW. They are having to close a £150 million deficit and are having to delay any improvements that they committed too.

It’s not that “it doesn’t enter their thoughts” it’s that they’re not in a position to do so at the moment.

I get that TFW have to find substantial savings to reduce taxpayer subsidy. What I find slightly hard to understand is why the WCB network is facing cuts & deferments, whilst the CVL network appears to be unaffected.

I'd have thought that the WCB services require less subsidy than CVL services (as fares are much lower on CVL) and in a post Covid-19 world have far greater growth potential due to the strength of the leisure travel market when compared to commuter travel.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The 197 was presumably deputising for one of the missing Mk4 (even if it was only deputising for the missing Mk4 diagram is the one that is still not officially diagrammed despite all the rubbish about a 2-hourly service)

I agree it is harsh to say TfW have no plans, but it is very fair to say they had the wrong plans and that the plans are delivering a daily mess on the Marches that does little for Shrewsbury to Manchester over the past 2 years.

Open it out to Swansea to Manchester and the whole thing is a disaster, about to become even worse.

Just to point out, and yea I know it’s a rarity, but yesterday and today there are 3 5car MK4’s, 1 4car MK4 and a 3 car 197 covering the 5 diagrams.

I get that TFW have to find substantial savings to reduce taxpayer subsidy. What I find slightly hard to understand is why the WCB network is facing cuts & deferments, whilst the CVL network appears to be unaffected.

I'd have thought that the WCB services require less subsidy than CVL services (as fares are much lower on CVL) and in a post Covid-19 world have far greater growth potential due to the strength of the leisure travel market when compared to commuter travel.

So, it’s not to reduce tax payer subsidy so to speak, it’s that the amount of subsidy they get plus their fare revenue would leave a defective of £150 million. So the Welsh government stepped in and provided that additional money but said it could not do that for the next year. Which ultimately means TFW have to do something about it in preparation.

The WCB timetable has been announced and they stated that the updated CVL timetable will be coming soon. So there could be huge cuts to the CVL or there could be none. We don’t know yet. Frankly the WCB changes don’t seem like £150 million a year to me, but we will have to wait and see.

 

[Dai Corner]

The connections at Craven Arms matter as a reasonable connection is likely to attract tourists to do the southern Wales circular route including The Marches, Heart of Wales and SWML - whether clockwise or anti-clockwise.

Most students can’t drive and don’t have cars.

On the other hand, tourists might want to spend some time in Craven Arms eating and exploring the town. Their numbers must be tiny compared with those of students travelling every day though.

 

[Topological]

Just to point out, and yea I know it’s a rarity, but yesterday and today there are 3 5car MK4’s, 1 4car MK4 and a 3 car 197 covering the 5 diagrams.

That is impressive. Now they just need to do it every day that it is advertised to be that (or a reasonable percentage) hehe.

 

[Lurcheroo]

That is impressive. Now they just need to do it every day that it is advertised to be that (or a reasonable percentage) hehe.

I agree, it is. It’s certainly been a long road and I have no doubt it’ll get a hit worse again at some point but we should enjoy it whilst it’s here ha!
The 5 car project is almost done so we will see what the end of that brings.

 

[Caaardiff]

The June timetable change will see an uplift to Valleys services, meaning the majority of the 150's will be required for CVL routes. There will also be some 153's leaving the fleet. So hopefully in the near future seeing 150/153's on the marches will be a rareity, excluding the ones that are booked for Heart of Wales & Crewe Shrewsbury rotations.

With bus Franchising coming under TFW in the future, it's an opportunity for TFW and WG to streamline public transport. One would hope that any reductions in rail services will see some kind of bus service replace it as a minimum.

 

[Cambrian359]

Or the regular 150 or 153x2 combinations for when the Mk4 breaks down?

The Mk4 vanity project may be an improvement to people who like 30+ year-old English cast-offs, but for those who want a reliable service they are far from an improvement. Not one day has the full 2 hourly service from Cardiff ran, it is not even planned to because the 06:35 and 14:50(ish) from Cardiff are not even booked to be Mk4.

An improvement would be a regular service that turns up and has space now, or indeed at any point since the "improvement" of replacing the 175s began.

Normal people don't want a whole carriage of first class and a buffet within the 5 (and remember many have that within 4). Yes the remaining standard class has more seats than a 3 car 197 (in the correct standard only formation), but a 5 car 197 will offer more standard seats so would be better for ALL the services.

What regular users of the Marches see only too clearly is that announcements of jam tomorrow with TfW really just means more mess today.

Mk4s are here and need to be made to work now as the alternative is chronic short formations across the network to fill the gap if we get rid of them. (Same goes for the 230s) . As new stock isn’t going to be ordered in the current financial climate.

TFW are clearly trying to attract more people and higher ticket payers to the Cardiff-Manchester route to help pay for the operations elsewhere (should be easily achievable between a capital city and a larger city).
Personally I don’t care if they are old cast offs from another country, if they attract more people back to the railway then it’s a success regardless of age.

Same goes with the Cambrian line, I’d rather see the 158s for another ten years(even if they are mobile ovens in summer) if it meant a full hourly service along the whole line with 4 car formations in summer where needed! than have 2 or 4 hourly services on new 2 car trains….

 

[peter166]

Just for information I've uploaded a combined copy of the timetable spreadsheets to the opening post just for posterity when they're inevitably taken down from TfWs website.

Hello
Thank you for downloading the proposed timetables but unfortunately, like on the TfW website, I am unable to read this type of file on my tablet. Is there a way of viewing the timetables as PDF files?

 

[Henffordd]

On the other hand, tourists might want to spend some time in Craven Arms eating and exploring the town. Their numbers must be tiny compared with those of students travelling every day though.

Have you ever been to the town?

 

[Bikeman78]

I'd have thought that the WCB services require less subsidy than CVL services (as fares are much lower on CVL) and in a post Covid-19 world have far greater growth potential due to the strength of the leisure travel market when compared to commuter travel.

From my observations, peak time valleys trains are totally wedged again; even the 231s on the Rhymney line are pretty full. Off peak loadings are quiet generally, except Saturdays which are full of shoppers. I caught the Saturday 150 diagram from Llanishen a few weeks ago. I could barely squeeze on.

 

[Dai Corner]

Have you ever been to the town?

Yes. Mainly for the excellent Land of Lost Content museum which I see has since closed down, sadly.

 

[Envoy]

On the other hand, tourists might want to spend some time in Craven Arms eating and exploring the town. Their numbers must be tiny compared with those of students travelling every day though.

I called into Craven Arms briefly. Looked a dump to me. If Ludlow had been where Craven Arms is, that it would have been an ideal place to hang out while changing trains.

Stokesay Castle is I think about a mile to the south and well worth seeing. However, I am not sure if a footpath links Craven Arms station to Stokesay Castle? If not, it would be a good idea of one was created - perhaps alongside the railway?

 

[Jez]

The June timetable change will see an uplift to Valleys services, meaning the majority of the 150's will be required for CVL routes. There will also be some 153's leaving the fleet. So hopefully in the near future seeing 150/153's on the marches will be a rareity, excluding the ones that are booked for Heart of Wales & Crewe Shrewsbury rotations.

To be fair we were told.tnat about a year ago about no more 150s and 153s 'soon' on the long distance Marches routes. They are far less likely to turn up now that the 197s are operating the majority of services but its still far too often IMO.

To be fair they often find a 158 to deputise for a 197 where they can which is acceptable but its not always possible for a 158 as they are needed for the Cambrian.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I called into Craven Arms briefly. Looked a dump to me. If Ludlow had been where Craven Arms is, that it would have been an ideal place to hang out while changing trains.

Stokesay Castle is I think about a mile to the south and well worth seeing. However, I am not sure if a footpath links Craven Arms station to Stokesay Castle? If not, it would be a good idea of one was created - perhaps alongside the railway?

There is a footpath alongside the road to Stokesay Castle, and also a path through the park round the back of the Secret Hills Discovery Centre. Arguably the path should be upgraded to be a shared-use cycleway as the A49 is horrible.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Mk4s are here and need to be made to work now as the alternative is chronic short formations across the network to fill the gap if we get rid of them. (Same goes for the 230s) . As new stock isn’t going to be ordered in the current financial climate.

TFW are clearly trying to attract more people and higher ticket payers to the Cardiff-Manchester route to help pay for the operations elsewhere (should be easily achievable between a capital city and a larger city).
Personally I don’t care if they are old cast offs from another country, if they attract more people back to the railway then it’s a success regardless of age.

Same goes with the Cambrian line, I’d rather see the 158s for another ten years(even if they are mobile ovens in summer) if it meant a full hourly service along the whole line with 4 car formations in summer where needed! than have 2 or 4 hourly services on new 2 car trains….

You are definitely correct. All of the planned stock needs to stay and to work. The rhetoric of them being “English castoffs” is rubbish. If they work and provide a better service then I’m all in!

As for the 158’s staying on the Cambrian, they’ve been work horses, they really have, but they’re tired.
Personally, I can’t stand being on them in the super hot summer time, same for 150’s and 153’s.

Last year the wife, myself and 1 year old holidayed to Devon. We wanted to go to Paignton and out nearest station was Exmouth and we caught a direct train to Paignton. Ideal. 4 car 150, not overcrowded but absolutely roasting.
We have Priv cards so get 75% off but the conductor said don’t bother and we travelled for free. The return was a 150 to Exeter with a change to a 150 to Exmouth, again both trains absolutely roasting. Travelled for free again.
Despite it not costing us a penny and the trains being rather convenient, we swore not to use the train again and to just drive in our 9 year old car with fantastic air conditioning as the whole week was just absolutely gorgeous weather !

Now back to the Cambrian, our daughter absolutely loves the beach, by far her favourite place. We get free travel on TFW services but the thought of getting onto a horrible sweat box for a 2 hour trip, each way, to Barmouth is a straight no for us. So we end up driving. We both have travelled a fair bit on the 197’s and quite like them and think we will use the train much more during the summer as they have functioning air conditioning.
Now imagine trying to convince people who have to pay full fares to get on 35 year old stiflingly hot trains. Clearly many do, but if we want to encourage more revenue (and that means more passengers) to our line then rolling stock needs to change and have what has become a basic function of most cars on the road today.

In terms of units, currently you’ll find about 15 different 158’s out of 24 travel on the Cambrian over the course of a day.
With 21 ERTMS 197’s and then being more contained to the Cambrian than the 158’s there should be plenty of rolling stock to cover the work and have more 4 cars running.

 

[duffield]

There is a footpath alongside the road to Stokesay Castle, and also a path through the park round the back of the Secret Hills Discovery Centre. Arguably the path should be upgraded to be a shared-use cycleway as the A49 is horrible.

And there's a path along the east bank of the river Omny to Stokesay bridge. Looking further afield, there seem to be some nice varied circular walk possibilities which include the castle - I've added this to my (ever growing) list.

 

[Starmill]

The connections at Craven Arms matter as a reasonable connection is likely to attract tourists to do the southern Wales circular route including The Marches, Heart of Wales and SWML - whether clockwise or anti-clockwise.

Most students can’t drive and don’t have cars.

How many people are bothered about a long wait in Craven Arms of they're doing a circular route? And a wait somewhere with a town centre may even be what they'd want. Sure, loads of people are unable to drive, but that doesn't have anything to do with the connections at Craven Arms does it? There's no market for them which is why it's not worth slowing down long-distance services to improve them.

 

[ainsworth74]

Hello
Thank you for downloading the proposed timetables but unfortunately, like on the TfW website, I am unable to read this type of file on my tablet. Is there a way of viewing the timetables as PDF files?

I'll have a go but it might turn out quite clunky!

 

[Tom125]

The market to South Wales would be tiny. Nearly everyone will either use the bus to Cardiff, park at Merthyr Tydfil, Ebbw Vale Parkway or Abergavenny for a train to Cardiff, or simply drive the whole way.

That’s exactly what I do from mid Wales- I drive from Aberdyfi to Ebbw Vale or Abercynon depending on my mood and take the train to Cardiff. (Abergavenny is too expensive)

 

[frodshamfella]

The deferral of Liverpool to North/South Wales isn't exactly the end of the world nor is it a surprise. Realistically on the Chester to Shrewsbury section you need additional signalling blocks between Wrexham and Gobowen.

Connections generally arnt too bad to/from the Coast with the service from Liverpool arriving into Chester at XX30 (ish) and the Llandudno service departing at XX50 (ish). Coming the other way you've got the service from Holyhead to Cardiff/Birmingham arriving from XX15-XX35 ish depending on the hour, so generally 20mins or so wait in each direction as the Liverpool departs at XX40 (43 usually i think).

Heading towards Shrewsbury however is rubbish as you've generally not long missed one and have nearly an hour (sometimes more) to wait.

I wouldn't say the Liverpool shuttles are a waste of money, they are pretty well used with plenty of passengers originating from North Wales/Shrewsbury lines heading to Liverpool and South Parkway. Get a fair few using it to get to Liverpool Airport too. Plus you can often fill all the seats at Frodsham with people heading to Liverpool, it does have a purpose even if it is just a shuttle and not running to its full potential. Hopefully the long term plans don't get binned.

EDIT - Interestingly, they've not planned to axe the 2 trains per hour on the Wrexham-Bidston line which I was half expecting they would!

I use it from Frodsham to Liverpool and a lot of people use it from there, but it's disappointing that direct services from Liverpool to North and South Wales that were promised are still not there, years later.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

How many people are bothered about a long wait in Craven Arms of they're doing a circular route? And a wait somewhere with a town centre may even be what they'd want. Sure, loads of people are unable to drive, but that doesn't have anything to do with the connections at Craven Arms does it? There's no market for them which is why it's not worth slowing down long-distance services to improve them.

I'm sure very few people do the circuit, and Craven Arms as discussed is a bit of a one-horse town.

But if the Welsh Government's strategy for improving the popularity of the Heart of Wales line is growing the tourism market, as per the new Active Travel 153s, then it does rather presume that people can actually reach the HoWL. Decent connections from Hereford are part of that, as well as from Shrewsbury and the other end of the line at Swansea/Llanelli. There's a non-negligible catchment for loading a bike or a pair of walking boots onto a train somewhere in the broad south-west Midlands / Cotswolds / Severn Vale area, and heading for the enhanced walker/cyclist-friendly HoWL.

 

[Starmill]

I'm sure very few people do the circuit, and Craven Arms as discussed is a bit of a one-horse town.

But if the Welsh Government's strategy for improving the popularity of the Heart of Wales line is growing the tourism market, as per the new Active Travel 153s, then it does rather presume that people can actually reach the HoWL. Decent connections from Hereford are part of that, as well as from Shrewsbury and the other end of the line at Swansea/Llanelli. There's a non-negligible catchment for loading a bike or a pair of walking boots onto a train somewhere in the broad south-west Midlands / Cotswolds / Severn Vale area, and heading for the enhanced walker/cyclist-friendly HoWL.

At the end of the day if that strategy were workable they wouldn't be cutting one of the services.

Look at it this way. TfW took a decision to spend significantly more in real terms on a restructure of the rail services company's staff terms, mainly by way of needing a big increase in staff numbers. This was done with the laudable objectives of improving staff retention and morale, increasing reliability by reducing self-inflicted delays and cancellations due to crew shortages, and running more services both all week in certain areas and also in particular on Sundays. These objectives broadly are being met over the course of this and next financial year. Unfortunately, the cost of these measures in real terms is very high, and it's obvious that this means that with a background in softer margins and tighter than expected budgets these are the easiest targets.

On balance the approach is likely a lot better than in England where industrial action and appalling productivity are making everything worse.