TfW Overcrowding

[trainophile]

Every single day there are people tweeting that they're having to stand for journeys of often several hours. Every day TfW apologise for the lack of capacity and assure us that they are using every available coach, and have new trains coming "soon".

So today I was somewhat shocked to see them advertising free travel for under-11s travelling with a fare paying adult. I have asked the question as to whether these children can occupy a seat while fare paying adults are having to stand, but have received no response.

My disillusion with this company falls to an even lower nadir .

 

[Llandudno]

Every single day there are people tweeting that they're having to stand for journeys of often several hours. Every day TfW apologise for the lack of capacity and assure us that they are using every available coach, and have new trains coming "soon".

So today I was somewhat shocked to see them advertising free travel for under-11s travelling with a fare paying adult. I have asked the question as to whether these children can occupy a seat while fare paying adults are having to stand, but have received no response.

My disillusion with this company falls to an even lower nadir .

Not to mention that under 16s can travel free at off peak times on TfW trains.

In many parts of Wales, off peak can be when trains are at their busiest…!

 

[trainophile]

Not to mention that under 16s can travel free at off peak times on TfW trains.

In many parts of Wales, off peak can be when trains are at their busiest…!

I didn't know that. It gets worse.

 

[L401CJF]

I believe this is a Welsh Government thing. Its been in place since last year if I remember rightly. In reality most people dont seem to know about it though!

 

[sd0733]

I believe this is a Welsh Government thing. Its been in place since last year if I remember rightly. In reality most people dont seem to know about it though!

It is a Government scheme, when it was brought up at the very beginning that there wasnt the capacity for this. Like you say though not a huge amount take it up, certainly not on the mainline in my experience and either buy normal child tickets on line before travel or buy them with a family railcard to get the discount as its cheaper.

 

[trainophile]

Well anyone who follows them on Twitter will now be all too aware of it, and I can't see them not wanting to take advantage.

 

[Towers]

Drakeford & Co in their make believe world of playing at running a country.

Draconian Covid measures (must be different from theEnglish at all costs), but directly causing overcrowding on the railways at the same time by not having the intelligence to keep hold of the Pacers a little longer. The NHS collapsing around their ears. And, shortly, pointless 20mph limits on every road they can get away with it on. Muppets.

Very obviously an organisation who are all about headlines and have little interest in what actually happens in the real world.

 

[Sheridan]

Drakeford & Co in their make believe world of playing at running a country.

Draconian Covid measures (must be different from theEnglish at all costs), but directly causing overcrowding on the railways at the same time by not having the intelligence to keep hold of the Pacers a little longer. The NHS collapsing around their ears. And, shortly, pointless 20mph limits on every road they can get away with it on. Muppets.

Very obviously an organisation who are all about headlines and have little interest in what actually happens in the real world.

I thought that Pacer withdrawal was a UK-wide decision?

 

[AgeoftheTrain7]

I thought that Pacer withdrawal was a UK-wide decision?

I think it was, yes - still, the Pacers were only ever used in the South Wales Valley Lines.
These routes are much less susceptible to overcrowding, even at peak and off-peak times.

The real problem with TfW (as someone who live in S Wales), is the Welsh Marches Line (Milford to Manchester.) Most stations have posters warning about severe overcrowding between Cardiff and Manchester, and TfW have even put buses on at Hereford, Shrewsbury and Crewe to get people off overcrowded trains and shuttle between stations. This seems to be a weekend thing...

Not helped at all by train formations commonly being 2-car 175s, or (ever more common), 2x 153s joined together, which always run late due to the fact they are unfit to run that length of line.

 

[185143]

I think it was, yes - still, the Pacers were only ever used in the South Wales Valley Lines.
These routes are much less susceptible to overcrowding, even at peak and off-peak times.

The real problem with TfW (as someone who live in S Wales), is the Welsh Marches Line (Milford to Manchester.) Most stations have posters warning about severe overcrowding between Cardiff and Manchester, and TfW have even put buses on at Hereford, Shrewsbury and Crewe to get people off overcrowded trains and shuttle between stations. This seems to be a weekend thing...

Not helped at all by train formations commonly being 2-car 175s, or (ever more common), 2x 153s joined together, which always run late due to the fact they are unfit to run that length of line.

Last time I travelled on that route on a Sunday, there were messages on the station PIS that "trains are very busy today with some full+standing".

Given that about 3 in 4 were cancelled it was hardly surprising! Though I was travelling in comfort on a fairly empty 175, until Cwmbran at least and there were only a handful standing for the short run into Newport. Suspect there was a combination of people being palmed off via Birmingham, a coach Shrewsbury-Hereford and simply giving up. From looking at social media when I arrived in Cardiff it made for grim reading of Northbound trains! Though they did say to their credit that a report was being filed of the particular problem trains and being passed to their superiors.

 

[Towers]

I thought that Pacer withdrawal was a UK-wide decision?

It may have been a network-wide strategy, however it was painfully obvious that Wales would be left short of capacity upon their removal without replacement.

I disagree that the Valleys don't suffer crowding; I travelled (legally!) during the restrictions on a service formed of a single Class 150, fairly shortly after the Pacers had gone. Amidst a sea of signage etc ramming the importance of keeping apart and all that jazz. The train was crush loaded. What a nonsense. The decision to grant the Pacers a stay of execution for the duration of social distancing etc should have been a no-brainer, but of course was completely missed.

 

[Jozhua]

The UK's DMU shortage continues to strike!

Noticing a trend that the worst overcrowded operators/routes tend to be on non-electrified lines.

A lot of it is almost certainly connected to the loss of electrification schemes in other areas preventing cascading of old diesel units.

Worse still, as these assets near end of life, there isn't the desire, nor capacity to buy loads of DMUs, when we have less than 20 years until planned total electrification of the network. Bombardier didn't have any DMUs available, at least until their merger with Alstom.

Meanwhile, even underfunded routes with electrification often benefit from a plentiful supply of cascade units from the South East, which aren't new, but provide more seats and acceptable performance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A shedload of DMUs are already on order which will render a load of 150s, 158s and 175s spare, plus the 222s soon. It's a problem now but it won't be in a year or two.

 

[trainophile]

I think it was, yes - still, the Pacers were only ever used in the South Wales Valley Lines.
These routes are much less susceptible to overcrowding, even at peak and off-peak times.

The real problem with TfW (as someone who live in S Wales), is the Welsh Marches Line (Milford to Manchester.) Most stations have posters warning about severe overcrowding between Cardiff and Manchester, and TfW have even put buses on at Hereford, Shrewsbury and Crewe to get people off overcrowded trains and shuttle between stations. This seems to be a weekend thing...

Not helped at all by train formations commonly being 2-car 175s, or (ever more common), 2x 153s joined together, which always run late due to the fact they are unfit to run that length of line.

We have a theory that because the Marches is largely not in Wales, they have no incentive to worry about those of us in England who are stuck with no alternative.

 

[wobman]

I think it was, yes - still, the Pacers were only ever used in the South Wales Valley Lines.
These routes are much less susceptible to overcrowding, even at peak and off-peak times.

The real problem with TfW (as someone who live in S Wales), is the Welsh Marches Line (Milford to Manchester.) Most stations have posters warning about severe overcrowding between Cardiff and Manchester, and TfW have even put buses on at Hereford, Shrewsbury and Crewe to get people off overcrowded trains and shuttle between stations. This seems to be a weekend thing...

Not helped at all by train formations commonly being 2-car 175s, or (ever more common), 2x 153s joined together, which always run late due to the fact they are unfit to run that length of line.

The routes with problems with overcrowding on the wales and borders franchise are most of them to be honest, the Birmingham services get very bust the Manchester routes get very busy etc

This weekend will be chaos all over the network and as most Bank Holidays the units aren't available to cover the amount of passengers travelling. N Wales in the summer had buses at most busy stations taking the excess passengers.

Tfw have recognised this by ordering 77 x 197s more Mk4s and Stadler units I the south, but it all takes time to get them into service and train up yhe teaincrew. unfortunately this year will be a busy time until the new stock gets into service.

 

[Jozhua]

A shedload of DMUs are already on order which will render a load of 150s, 158s and 175s spare, plus the 222s soon. It's a problem now but it won't be in a year or two.

This is true - I hope this improves the situation significantly.

At the present time, no 15X unit should be going to the scrap, as the DMU shortage is very severe. Perhaps cannibalise the most unreliable units for spares.

 

[185143]

Just done Crewe-Aberystwyth with TfW.

2 car 175 from Crewe, full and standing. Seemed to have been even busier on arrival.

Followed by a 2 car 158 across the Cambrian main line from Shrewsbury, standing room only initially, but would have been perfectly adequate had it been fully formed. The bigger problem by far was that both the toilets were out of use! We had to have an emergency toilet stop at Machynlleth as a result.

 

[Anonymous10]

new trains are due next year with a larger fleet to allow longer trains ie 2+3 cars or 2+2 will be common possibly longer on some routes. however these things take time and until they arrive there's not alot tfw can do as they have taken a large amount of 153s to try to minimise the issue already

 

[Anonymous10]

We have a theory that because the Marches is largely not in Wales, they have no incentive to worry about those of us in England who are stuck with no alternative.

please remember new trains are coming and tfw neither have the stock or the ability with the 175s to run 4 or 5 car trains in passenger service due to the door controls on those units if i remember correctly. once the new stock arrives you would hope 3 car trains will be the minimum on that route and there will be 4 or 5 car loco hauled sets too

 

[trainophile]

I think I heard that the majority of the new trains on order are two coaches, the plan being to double them up. Call me a cynic but I'll believe that when I see it.

24 hours on and I still haven't had a reply about the free child seats. Today's Twitter has the usual selection of complaints about rammed services though.

 

[Techniquest]

It's all fine and good telling us new trains are coming, yes we know, in the meantime we're enduring overcrowded baby 175s and getting most fed up of it! Yesterday the 0533 from Holyhead to Cardiff was a single 158 when I saw it roll into Hereford, I dread to think what the load was like on that. Fortunately my train back from Shrewsbury was a 3 car 175, having endured a baby 175 heading north.

Stock shortages etc happen, yes, but it's still not fun. 2 car trains turning up vice MK4 sets is getting too much of a joke.

trainophile, you probably won't get a reply. I'm also a bit cynical about their rolling stock plan, I'd like to believe it will go to plan (apart from unexpected problems) but I'm not confident in it.

 

[py_megapixel]

I'm not really sure what ousting children from their seats would achieve. I understand the argument that they haven't paid a fare, but the National Rail Conditions of Travel are pretty clear that paying a fare doesn't entitle you to a seat anyway.

 

[trainophile]

Well under-5's (?) who travel free aren't supposed to occupy a seat that is needed for a fare payer, and the current situation with TfW is absolutely dire anyway, so you'd think they might hold back on filling yet more scarce seats with non-paying passengers, regardless of their age. I take it you aren't a TfW user? Try searching their page on Twitter if you use it. Photos daily of people rammed in like sardines. Totally unacceptable. They're not all that cheap either.

 

[Anonymous10]

It's all fine and good telling us new trains are coming, yes we know, in the meantime we're enduring overcrowded baby 175s and getting most fed up of it! Yesterday the 0533 from Holyhead to Cardiff was a single 158 when I saw it roll into Hereford, I dread to think what the load was like on that. Fortunately my train back from Shrewsbury was a 3 car 175, having endured a baby 175 heading north.

Stock shortages etc happen, yes, but it's still not fun. 2 car trains turning up vice MK4 sets is getting too much of a joke.

trainophile, you probably won't get a reply. I'm also a bit cynical about their rolling stock plan, I'd like to believe it will go to plan (apart from unexpected problems) but I'm not confident in it.

im not entirely sure what grumbling about it when you know new stock is coming will do there's no spare dmus that are prm compliant meaning tfw are stuck with what they have. things will get better we just have to sit tight

 

[wobman]

Well under-5's (?) who travel free aren't supposed to occupy a seat that is needed for a fare payer, and the current situation with TfW is absolutely dire anyway, so you'd think they might hold back on filling yet more scarce seats with non-paying passengers, regardless of their age. I take it you aren't a TfW user? Try searching their page on Twitter if you use it. Photos daily of people rammed in like sardines. Totally unacceptable. They're not all that cheap either.

So would you really ask an under 5 year old child to stand up so you can sit on a seat ? I've never seen that happen.

Tfw are getting as many 197 units as the DFT will let them, the DFT specified 56 x 2 car and 21 x 3 car 197 units. Tfw have also purchased extra Mk4s from the failed GC project they are up and above there franchise plan.

Tfw have inherited a franchise that was a zero growth 15yr DFT devised franchise that was awarded to ATW, that is why the wales and borders franchise is in such a mess. Plus covid has added to the chaos as all training has been heavily delayed, resulting in traincrew no trained on certain traction and trainees delayed being productive.

 

[Pete_uk]

Hold on Welsh folk. The Welsh rail network will be unrecognisable in a couple of years time.

 

[trainophile]

So would you really ask an under 5 year old child to stand up so you can sit on a seat ? I've never seen that happen.

Tfw are getting as many 197 units as the DFT will let them, the DFT specified 56 x 2 car and 21 x 3 car 197 units. Tfw have also purchased extra Mk4s from the failed GC project they are up and above there franchise plan.

Tfw have inherited a franchise that was a zero growth 15yr DFT devised franchise that was awarded to ATW, that is why the wales and borders franchise is in such a mess. Plus covid has added to the chaos as all training has been heavily delayed, resulting in traincrew no trained on certain traction and trainees delayed being productive.

Sorry if this makes me an ogre, but too right I would. As I expect would most pensioners. Young children are supposed to sit on the lap of the accompanying parent if the train is crowded. I appreciate that's not practical with 5-11 year olds, hence my surprise at the idea of letting them travel free on already overcrowded trains.

Hold on Welsh folk. The Welsh rail network will be unrecognisable in a couple of years time.

Pedant alert - it's not the Welsh folk I represent here! It's those who have the misfortune to live in England yet be reliant on Transport for Wales to get where we need to go.

 

[py_megapixel]

I appreciate that's not practical with 5-11 year olds, hence my surprise at the idea of letting them travel free on already overcrowded trains.

It's not always practical with 4 year olds. Especially if there's barely enough room for the parent on their own!

I share your frustration with the overcrowding (I don't use TfW often, but Northern has been through many of the same pains a few years ago) but worse than an overcrowded train is an overcrowded train full of annoyed kids, which is what you would have if everyone who decided they didn't fancy standing attempted to move a young child out of a seat.

I think the correct solution would have been to wait for the rolling stock to be replaced before introducing free travel for children. Ultimately, any policy which relies on people vacating seats on request is liable to lead to conflict, so it's best avoided apart from where it's actually essential to ensure the service is accessible to all (such as people who have mobility impairments and simply cannot stand for extended periods).

 

[L401CJF]

Unfortunately its a franchise thats suffered from lack of investment for decades, main issues currently is a lack of units as discussed, plus youve got the 175s which due to lack of gangways are hard to operate on a lot of routes in multiple because of the lack of gangways. Stations with short platforms of which there are many, means locking out the rear unit for those stations and faffing around rounding passengers up from the rear unit for the next station etc before locking it out - or the whole journey (which defeats the object).

Hopefully with the 197s and their gangways, it should be possible to run more longer trains with their selective door system, and passengers can move through the gangway into the correct coach. Unfortunately these things take time but hopefully after years of neglect, things should improve.

 

[Envoy]

I understand that plenty of the new Class 197’s are now built & lying in sidings at various places but no TfW staff have even started the few days of training it takes to operate them. Covid and some fault issues seem to be the reason given for the delay. I also understand that the first depot to get these 197’s will be Chester but that is at present the main depot for the 175’s. Perhaps they will have a sudden swop over?

It is also disappointing that the Mark 4 coaches hauled by Class 67 locomotives have also failed to make an appearance - apart from one or two services on the Holyhead to Cardiff run on weekdays only.