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TfW punctuality

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GWVillager

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This has been discussed here and there before, but never in one thread and never with any conclusive answers. Why is Transport for Wales’ punctuality, particularly on the Marches line, so poor? Trains are rarely less than 6 or 7 minutes late, and often much later.
 
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Phil from Mon

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This has been discussed here and there before, but never in one thread and never with any conclusive answers. Why is Transport for Wales’ punctuality, particularly on the Marches line, so poor? Trains are rarely less than 6 or 7 minutes late, and often much later.
Well! Last night (1523) we were 5 minutes late leaving Cardiff due to a red, and this had increased to 15 by the time we got to Chester, where we were booted out onto another unit which then got delayed again further at Fflint by a level crossing failure or signal failure (heard both) at Prestatyn. Arrived about 23 late in Bangor. These slight delays are a regular occurrence, individually they are small but over a year it builds up to a lot of time wasted.
 

liamf656

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This has been discussed here and there before, but never in one thread and never with any conclusive answers. Why is Transport for Wales’ punctuality, particularly on the Marches line, so poor? Trains are rarely less than 6 or 7 minutes late, and often much later.
Do you have examples of consistent late running? Recent RTT links?
 

Redonian

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Do you have examples of consistent late running? Recent RTT links?
Take this morning at Leominster but every day it's like this :
Southbound - 06:21 dep 07:08, 06:49 cancelled, 07:28 dep 07:40, 08:44 doesn't stop, passed 09:07, 09:26 dep 09:32, 09:54 dep 10:03
Northbound - 07:03 dep 07:11, 11:08 cancelled.
 

ValleyLines142

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Doesn't help either that the majority of Manchester-West Wales services are now split at Cardiff, and so usually platforms at Cardiff are filled with the terminating unit from Manchester and the new unit going onto Carmarthen, which if its late I imagine they'll hold the connection? Subsequently my GWR one day last week, which ran perfectly to time until literally outside Cardiff, was sat for 15 minutes at Cardiff East waiting for a platform!
 

GWVillager

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Do you have examples of consistent late running? Recent RTT links?
Just look at RTT at any station on the Marches really, Leominster is good as said: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:LEO/2023-11-30/1031

Well! Last night (1523) we were 5 minutes late leaving Cardiff due to a red, and this had increased to 15 by the time we got to Chester, where we were booted out onto another unit which then got delayed again further at Fflint by a level crossing failure or signal failure (heard both) at Prestatyn. Arrived about 23 late in Bangor. These slight delays are a regular occurrence, individually they are small but over a year it builds up to a lot of time wasted.
This is the sort of thing I’m talking about - but why is TfW so prone to it? Even when things are technically running fine, delays rack up quickly. Why, when other TOCs can manage better?
 

YorkRailFan

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Around 2 years ago, I was traveling with TFW between Church Stretton and Ludlow, the train was 60 minutes late (the next one was 10 minutes late) and was a packed 150, I was glad I was only going 2 stops, the train was going to Milford Haven! No RTT link as it was 2 years ago.
 

AlastairFraser

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Just look at RTT at any station on the Marches really, Leominster is good as said: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:LEO/2023-11-30/1031


This is the sort of thing I’m talking about - but why is TfW so prone to it? Even when things are technically running fine, delays rack up quickly. Why, when other TOCs can manage better?
A lot of the time, I think it's increased dwell times. This is improving with the new rolling stock though.
Additionally, the vulnerability of services using the Castlefield corridor to delays has serious knock on effects elsewhere.
 

GWVillager

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A lot of the time, I think it's increased dwell times. This is improving with the new rolling stock though.
No it’s not, dwell times are really quite bad with the 197s and Mk4s. Overcrowding might be increasing them, though.

Additionally, the vulnerability of services using the Castlefield corridor to delays has serious knock on effects elsewhere.
This can’t be a major factor, however.
 

AlastairFraser

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No it’s not, dwell times are really quite bad with the 197s and Mk4s. Overcrowding might be increasing them, though.


This can’t be a major factor, however.
I've not seen particularly long dwells with either types you've mention, but I've only experienced them on the English sides.
As for Castlefield delays, they can lead to crew out of position and the Manchester services intersect with so many other lines - so they pose a massive punctuality risk.
 

Envoy

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The Class 175’s which formed the bulk of the fleet on The Marches could do 100mph. These trains have been sent off lease by TfW. The new Class 197 trains can also do 100mph and are supposed to be 5 coaches on The Marches once all the fleet has arrived. Unfortunately, at present, they are operating as 2 or 3 car trains with 4 coaches if you are lucky.

The Class 67 loco hauled trains are operating with 4 coaches - one of which is first class and a kitchen also takes up space. So on both the trains that have replaced the 175’s, we have a capacity problem that leads to overcrowding and delays though it should be noted that many 175’s operated as only 2 or 3 coaches.

When neither the Class 67 hauled trains or the new 197’s are available, they replace them with Class 150/153 sprinters which are really meant for branch lines. These trains can only do 75mph whilst much of The Marches route allows for 90mph running.
 

GWVillager

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The Class 175’s which formed the bulk of the fleet on The Marches could do 100mph. These trains have been sent off lease by TfW. The new Class 197 trains can also do 100mph and are supposed to be 5 coaches on The Marches once all the fleet has arrived. Unfortunately, at present, they are operating as 2 or 3 car trains with 4 coaches if you are lucky.

The Class 67 loco hauled trains are operating with 4 coaches - one of which is first class and a kitchen also takes up space. So on both the trains that have replaced the 175’s, we have a capacity problem that leads to overcrowding and delays though it should be noted that many 175’s operated as only 2 or 3 coaches.

When neither the Class 67 hauled trains or the new 197’s are available, they replace them with Class 150/153 sprinters which are really meant for branch lines. These trains can only do 75mph whilst much of The Marches route allows for 90mph running.
Again, that doesn’t explain why 197s run late so often, or trains just depart their origin station late. Delays are found almost indiscriminately.

I've not seen particularly long dwells with either types you've mention, but I've only experienced them on the English sides.
As for Castlefield delays, they can lead to crew out of position and the Manchester services intersect with so many other lines - so they pose a massive punctuality risk.
Holyhead services run similarly late on the Marches, and many Manchester trains are terminated at Crewe or Wilmslow. It can’t be that to any noticeable degree.
 

YorkRailFan

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The Class 175’s which formed the bulk of the fleet on The Marches could do 100mph. These trains have been sent off lease by TfW. The new Class 197 trains can also do 100mph and are supposed to be 5 coaches on The Marches once all the fleet has arrived. Unfortunately, at present, they are operating as 2 or 3 car trains with 4 coaches if you are lucky.

The Class 67 loco hauled trains are operating with 4 coaches - one of which is first class and a kitchen also takes up space. So on both the trains that have replaced the 175’s, we have a capacity problem that leads to overcrowding and delays though it should be noted that many 175’s operated as only 2 or 3 coaches.

When neither the Class 67 hauled trains or the new 197’s are available, they replace them with Class 150/153 sprinters which are really meant for branch lines. These trains can only do 75mph whilst much of The Marches route allows for 90mph running.
Hence why TFW has resorted to using Sprinters, see here: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W26582/2023-11-30/detailed#allox_id=1
 

Steve B

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There are other factors that have a bearing on this: for instance delays are often cumulative - Why do trains often start their journey late? Because often they arrived late. Then because of the long block sections on some routes (I'm thinking Shrewsbury to Chester with some very lengthy block sections, and a single line section as well) then if one train is delayed then those following it have to wait for it to clear the section, which then makes those ones late as well, and so it goes on. This doesn't just affect that route, but also the other routes that particular unit will be operating on during the rest of the day.

Because the 175s have gone, but not all the 197s have arrived, older 150/153s are being used away from their usual routes, which don't always fit with the expectations of the timetable. For instance yesterday I caught a 150 from Wrexham that was supposed to go to Birmingham International. It started from Holyhead and was about 10 mins late at Wrexham. When we got to Shrewsbury (where I was leaving the train) the train (by now about 15mins late) was terminated and passengers for Birmingham transferred to a 158 in the adjacent platform (delaying things further) - possibly because the 150 wasn't suitable for the next service it would form from Birmingham - to Aberystwyth, which of course is out of bounds for 150s and needs the specially equipped 158s.

For another example, earlier in the month I again was going to Wrexham from Shrewsbury in the early morning, with an eventual destination on the Borderlands line. My train was delayed at Shrewsbury due to a late running freight train going to Dee Marsh on the Borderlands line. We were then held further at Gobowen waiting for the freight to clear the section at Wrexham. Meanwhile at Wrexham the Borderlands 230 was delayed by the same freight train being sent on ahead of it. Often the freights are held in platform 3 at Wrexham to give priority to the passenger trains, but on this occasion platform 3 was needed by my train that was terminating at Wrexham and platform 3 is the only platform signalled for that move. Holding the freight would have left my train waiting outside Wrexham, and the following Holyhead train waiting at Gobowen which would then would complicate things on the single line north of Wrexham heading towards Chester. So that one freight train delayed at least two passenger trains following it up the mainline with knock on effects on the North Wales Coast line, the line back to Shrewsbury and onto Birmingham (the next move for my delayed train), and a totally disrupted timetable on the Borderlands Line (which many would have blamed on the - on this occasion - totally innocent 230).

The answer to some of this will come once all the new trains are running (hence giving a more uniform and compatible fleet), and everyone is fully familiar with them, but the infrastructure also needs improving to increase capacity, and enable greater flexibility, and increase reliability - too often we hear of delays due to signal or points failures
 

DLyle44004

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The problem is that TfW as an institution doesn’t has much of an incentive to improve reliability. After WG takeover they are no longer accountable to the customers, only the electorate (including the 88 odd percent that don’t use / care about railways) - and much less the 0% of people in England who have a say in Senedd elections
 
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The problem is that TfW as an institution doesn’t has much of an incentive to improve reliability. After WG takeover they are no longer accountable to the customers, only the electorate (including the 88 odd percent that don’t use / care about railways) - and much less the 0% of people in England who have a say in Senedd elections
I do sympathise. As a frequent commuter by TfW, rail journeys are generally the most unpleasant part of my day.

But as a thought experiment, let's assume that TfW somehow magically got an incentive to improve reliability. What realistically could they do to improve things?
 

DLyle44004

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I do sympathise. As a frequent commuter by TfW, rail journeys are generally the most unpleasant part of my day.

But as a thought experiment, let's assume that TfW somehow magically got an incentive to improve reliability. What realistically could they do to improve things?
In the situation they have put themselves in, not much I expect.

My feeling is that a lot of these issues are a result of the push to deliver on the South Wales Metro taking attention away from the rest of their network. For example, the priority to train drivers on and run faster, higher capacity FLIRTs on the Rhymney line compared to slower 153s working to Manchester, etc.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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Living in North Wales, although not a massive TfW fan, I have to admit reliability and services are improving. We are getting extra Sunday services , later services. Its not perfect but it is better than it was. Might be a work in progress.
 

Llandudno

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Living in North Wales, although not a massive TfW fan, I have to admit reliability and services are improving. We are getting extra Sunday services , later services. Its not perfect but it is better than it was. Might be a work in progress.
Are we getting extra Sunday services and later evening services?

If so when and where…?

I will believe it when I see it!

Borderlands half hourly service and Liverpool to Llandudno service still not happened and I have my doubts if they ever will!
 

L401CJF

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Not overly familiar with the South or Marches in general but the most common reasons seem to be late inward stock (do they have to shunt out somewhere at Cardiff to turn back?), or stock late off Canton depot.

I must say the Marches seems to be a very unlucky line. I always get emails pretty much daily with either a broken down freight train, sheep on the line, a signal failure, a level crossing fault, etc etc.

A common reason for delay on 197s is using the ramp for wheelchair users etc. Takes a good few minutes with it being in 2 halves located at different ends of the carriage. Easily lose 5 minutes on a journey by boarding a wheelchair user at 1 stop and alighting them at another.

197s are notably improving performance on the North Wales coast however - its quite common to leave Chester a few minutes late and be on time again after a few stops, whereas a 175 would lose time as they took an age to hit linespeed.

Infrastructure is another drawback, mainly long signal sections - I've been held at Wrexham before due to a freight train ahead, which has to reach Gobowen before we can depart, and then again at Gobowen have to wait for it to clear the section to Shrewsbury. I've had the same coming the other way too, easy to lose at least 20mins if that happens!
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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Are we getting extra Sunday services and later evening services?

If so when and where…?

I will believe it when I see it!

Borderlands half hourly service and Liverpool to Llandudno service still not happened and I have my doubts if they ever will!
Sorry i can't post correctly as forum rules at this moment but just for something info for you.


 

Dai Corner

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Not overly familiar with the South or Marches in general but the most common reasons seem to be late inward stock (do they have to shunt out somewhere at Cardiff to turn back?), or stock late off Canton depot.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the main line platforms 0-4 are reversible since the last resignalling. However the usual mode of operation is for terminating Down trains is to arrive at 3 or 4 and shunt to 0, 1 or 2 to return in the Up direction. There isn't the capacity to let them lay over in the platforms.
 

1955LR

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A common reason for delay on 197s is using the ramp for wheelchair users etc. Takes a good few minutes with it being in 2 halves located at different ends of the carriage. Easily lose 5 minutes on a journey by boarding a wheelchair user at 1 stop and alighting them at another.
I was only speaking to a member of staff on the Heart of Wales line a couple of weeks ago who was complaining about the two piece ramp and the fact it is difficult to slot into position which was creating significant delay
 

Caaardiff

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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the main line platforms 0-4 are reversible since the last resignalling. However the usual mode of operation is for terminating Down trains is to arrive at 3 or 4 and shunt to 0, 1 or 2 to return in the Up direction. There isn't the capacity to let them lay over in the platforms.
A through service will be in platform for 2-5 minutes then carry on their way.
A terminating service will require a higher number of people to get off and then a shunt move which is usually to the brick yard, so having to wait for a clear path from the down platforms across the up line to get to the brick yard. Same if going to Canton awaiting a path with regular Valleys services in and out of the west.
 

Jez

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TFW punctuality seems to be getting worse. THe majority of times recently that ive turned up to catch a new 197 its been at least a few minutes late if not more.

Prime example yesterday, i turned up for the 17xx Swanline/Chester service, it was a little late and formed of 3 cars, it was very busy which surprised me. Then realising the Manchester service that should have been ahead of it was actually behind it and left Port Talbot a few minutes behind it, that explained why the Chester service was busier than i expected for a stopping service. 3 cars was definately needed to ensure nearly everyone had a seat. A look at RTT and both services were then significantly late after departure from Cardiff which means delay repay would apply to 2 sets of passengers. The Manchester was turned back at Crewe infact which isnt ideal for any Manchester passengers hoping to get the 2130 service.

Trains which pass through Swansea and 197s which attach to a second set at Cardiff ive noticed are particularly likely to pick up delays. Trains which arrive early at Swansea from further West can arrive on time but lose a lot of time at Swansea.

Terminating the Manchester,s at Cardiff every 2 hours has been a disaster for reliability. it only works well if everything runs to perfect time which of course it doesnt. It would make far more sense to run them through to Swansea (even if it had to be 1 train every 3 hours as a MK4) obviously then this would mean only 2 trains every 3 hours would run direct from Cardiff to Carmarthen (and beyond) it would make more sense as Swansea being bay platforms is much better for terminating trains. And with GWR also extending more trains to Carmarthen there should still be enough direct trains from Cardiff to West Wales to keep people happy.
 

74A

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If the driver could open the doors that would save 30 seconds at each stop. I'm amazed with the new stock it's still guard open.
 

sikejsudjek

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Several stations on the heart of Wales line are in the bottom 100 in the UK with regard to punctuality. It's a rare day when all services run.
 

Western 52

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Several stations on the heart of Wales line are in the bottom 100 in the UK with regard to punctuality. It's a rare day when all services run.
Indeed. Even though my TfW bus pass gives free travel on the line in winter, I still don't risk using the line because of the high chance of the last train not running. If only they could run the line reliably, it's a wonderful line with great potential.
 

Llandudno

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Sorry i can't post correctly as forum rules at this moment but just for something info for you.


So no mention of extra Sunday (apart from one Avanti substitute) and later evening trains

No mention of promised half hourly Borderlands trains or hourly Liverpool - Llandudno service.

Yep, believe it when I see it…!
 
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