TfW Standard Plus

[507020]

Upgrades are suspended with no replacement date now lined up as far as I'm aware.

If/when it comes in I'd be amazed if anyone with any sort of first class ticket had issues in there irrespective of whether it's official policy or not.

The website says you can upgrade on the following routes, subject to availability:

• Shrewsbury - Birmingham
• Cambrian Line: Aberystwyth/Pwllheli - Shrewsbury
• North Wales Coast Line: Crewe - Holyhead
• Marches Line: Newport - Crewe/Manchester
• South Wales Mainline: Swansea - Severn Tunnel Junction
• West Wales Lines: Swansea - Fishguard, Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock

I take that to mean that if 197113 - 197126 appear on any other service, then it will be declassified, but is the case. For example the 1 a day Wrexham - Lime Street. The list would suggest that Shrewsbury - Chester is excluded, despite this having first class on Mk4s.

Not only that. If the Standard Plus area is only fitted to 3 car units, but ETCS is only fitted to 2 car units, how will it work on the Cambrian, or through services to Birmingham International?

I had the upgraded seat from Crewe to Newport on 8 August with no charge, but the only other time I’ve had it was from East Didsbury to Manchester Oxford Road when it was first introduced and it was definitely declassified then.

 

[Kite159]

The website says you can upgrade on the following routes, subject to availability:

• Shrewsbury - Birmingham
• Cambrian Line: Aberystwyth/Pwllheli - Shrewsbury
• North Wales Coast Line: Crewe - Holyhead
• Marches Line: Newport - Crewe/Manchester
• South Wales Mainline: Swansea - Severn Tunnel Junction
• West Wales Lines: Swansea - Fishguard, Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock

I take that to mean that if 197113 - 197126 appear on any other service, then it will be declassified, but is the case. For example the 1 a day Wrexham - Lime Street. The list would suggest that Shrewsbury - Chester is excluded, despite this having first class on Mk4s.

Not only that. If the Standard Plus area is only fitted to 3 car units, but ETCS is only fitted to 2 car units, how will it work on the Cambrian, or through services to Birmingham International?

I had the upgraded seat from Crewe to Newport on 8 August with no charge, but the only other time I’ve had it was from East Didsbury to Manchester Oxford Road when it was first introduced and it was definitely declassified then.

And what happens on a Cheltenham service after Severn Tunnel Junction, does it become declassified etc?

 

[Krokodil]

I take that to mean that if 197113 - 197126 appear on any other service, then it will be declassified

You assume wrong. Fares are in the system even for the Conwy Valley (the route is now barred to three cars, though they have been up in the past).

 

[Bletchleyite]

You assume wrong. Fares are in the system even for the Conwy Valley (the route is now barred to three cars, though they have been up in the past).

Why's that, does the middle coach clout something? Three cars in summer would be very useful!

 

[Krokodil]

Why's that, does the middle coach clout something? Three cars in summer would be very useful!

The ASDO was never set up to dealing with three car sets so the doors of the rear coach won't open even when platformed. The staggered way that the door control panels are arranged mean that it's not always possible to override (Betws on the down being the main issue here). The issue of what happens when the wheelchair door is off of the platform and you have a wheelchair user needing to board/alight was never resolved (forget commonsense solutions like just giving six to draw forward and overriding the ASDO), obviously this is an issue at any short platform but unlike Llanfairpwll and Valley we frequently need to put ramps down on the Conwy Valley so it's a more frequent issue.

The guards moaned about working the sets and were told "you can't refuse to take one, just get on with it and see if it can be swapped out later". So roll on a few months, guard rings up from the early morning train to see if a swap can be arranged for the second trip and was told that they had been banned - without anyone actually being told at the time. All hell broke loose, Control insisted on cancelling the return working etc.

 

[Towers]

The ASDO was never set up to dealing with three car sets so the doors of the rear coach won't open even when platformed. The staggered way that the door control panels are arranged mean that it's not always possible to override (Betws on the down being the main issue here). The issue of what happens when the wheelchair door is off of the platform and you have a wheelchair user needing to board/alight was never resolved (forget commonsense solutions like just giving six to draw forward and overriding the ASDO), obviously this is an issue at any short platform but unlike Llanfairpwll and Valley we frequently need to put ramps down on the Conwy Valley so it's a more frequent issue.

The guards moaned about working the sets and were told "you can't refuse to take one, just get on with it and see if it can be swapped out later". So roll on a few months, guard rings up from the early morning train to see if a swap can be arranged for the second trip and was told that they had been banned - without anyone actually being told at the time. All hell broke loose, Control insisted on cancelling the return working etc.

BR old school management would be spinning in their graves at the way the current industry makes such a dog’s dinner of introducing new rolling stock. Yikes!

 

[507020]

And what happens on a Cheltenham service after Severn Tunnel Junction, does it become declassified etc?

This is what the TfW website says. Cheltenham services come from Maesteg not Swansea. I’m not sure why it wasn’t logical for these to remain 170s for standardisation with CrossCountry. The long term plan for 231s with 756s on the valleys doesn’t make sense when there is no electrification on the valleys at all, but Cheltenham services run under the wires to Newport. Either way the FLIRTs only have one class of accommodation so this is route isn’t really valid.

You assume wrong. Fares are in the system even for the Conwy Valley (the route is now barred to three cars, though they have been up in the past).

But on any route where 3 car 197s are and always will be banned banned like the Cambrian or the Conwy Valley, or where other stock is used like the FLIRTs, it will be impossible for Standard Plus accommodation to be available, so these fares shouldn’t exist.

This doesn’t explain where it will or won’t be declassified when the units fitted with it do appear. Clearly existence of fares for it doesn’t instigate that these fares are chargeable when there are instances of them being nonsensical.

 

[Krokodil]

But on any route where 3 car 197s are and always will be banned banned like the Cambrian or the Conwy Valley, or where other stock is used like the FLIRTs, it will be impossible for Standard Plus accommodation to be available, so these fares shouldn’t exist.

The three cars weren't always banned on the Conwy Valley (indeed at least one of the composite ones has been to Blaenau) and there's no guarantee that they will always be banned either. I suspect that eventually all units will be fitted with ETCS as the WCML gets upgraded - the only reason they weren't done from the outset appears to be that fitting new units with the kit has to be funded by the TOC whereas upgrading units already in use where infrastructure changes makes it necessary gets paid for by Network Rail.

This doesn’t explain where it will or won’t be declassified when the units fitted with it do appear. Clearly existence of fares for it doesn’t instigate that these fares are chargeable when there are instances of them being nonsensical.

This idea that the accommodation will be declassified if the units run away from the list of routes on the website is one which exists in your imagination only. GWR don't declassify First class on the IETs even though they've been cascaded onto regional services.

 

[Belperpete]

If I recall correctly, the signs above the windows say that you are paying for the extra leg room. Is that the only difference? I don't recall the seats themselves being any different.

I also found the signage potentially very confusing. There was a sign on top the window on the other side of the train, but no sign on the window my side, despite the seats looking the same and spaced the same! It would surely be better if the seats themselves were shown as Premium. With nothing on the outside of the train, or in the entrance way to those bays, I can see a lot of people getting caught. I didn't realise until I had been sat down for awhile and saw the signage above the opposite window that I was (possibly) in a Premium seat. At least with Avanti's standard premium, it is a whole coach, and the seats themselves are clearly shown, not just random seats in a coach like TfW seem to be doing.

And what is going to happen when the train is full and the only seats left are Standard Premium? Is the guard going to insist that you either stand or pay?

What is the legal position with this if you refuse to pay the supplement? If I have a valid ticket for the journey, could I be prosecuted for not paying the correct fare? Do the Conditions of Carriage or Penalty Fare regulations recognise Premium as a separate class of travel?

 

[Krokodil]

If I recall correctly, the signs above the windows say that you are paying for the extra leg room. Is that the only difference? I don't recall the seats themselves being any different.

The seats are quite different. More cushioned, they recline, there's a pillow attached to the headrest (assuming that it hasn't been nicked, most have), the layout is 2+1, there's a decent table even for the "airline" seats...

or in the entrance way to those bays

The internal doors have a banner "Standard Plus" across them

not just random seats in a coach like TfW seem to be doing.

Random seats? It's exactly the same arrangement as any other composite vehicle in any rail vehicle I can think of off hand (Mk1 BCK, 108s, 350s, 800s...). It's a seperate saloon segregated from the rest of the train by a partition (complete with sliding doors to keep the noise of the delinquent classes out).

 

[Belperpete]

The seats are quite different. More cushioned, they recline, there's a pillow attached to the headrest (assuming that it hasn't been nicked, most have), the layout is 2+1, there's a decent table even for the "airline" seats...


The internal doors have a banner "Standard Plus" across them


Random seats? It's exactly the same arrangement as any other composite vehicle in any rail vehicle I can think of off hand (Mk1 BCK, 108s, 350s, 800s...). It's a seperate saloon segregated from the rest of the train by a partition (complete with sliding doors to keep the noise of the delinquent classes out).

It was the first time that I had travelled on a 197, so I just assumed that the decent seat and table were due to a 197 being better than a 150. It was certainly nowhere near what I would expect of first class. There was certainly no pillow, and I don't recall the seat reclining - but then I wasn't expecting it to so wouldn't have been looking for it. I don't associate a table as being an indication that a higher fare applies. And I don't recall seeing any sign on a partition door, but to be honest I don't recall there being a partition door - it would already have been open as I followed other people in.

The signage is certainly far less clear than first class, where there are signs on the outside of a coach that you can see before you get in, on every window once you are in, and every seat. And certainly far less obvious than in Avanti's standard premium.

You would be hard pushed not to know that you are sitting in a first class seat. Whereas the first I knew that Standard Premium even existed on TfW was some time after I had sat down, when I spotted the sign above the opposite window. And that signage was only above certain seats, certainly not above them all, leading me to believe that only those particular seats were premium. The clear impression that those signs gave me is that you are paying extra for those particular face to face seats that have extra leg room. I certainly wasn't aware that it applied to every seat in that saloon, including the airline seats, indeed I was considering moving to one of those airline seats to avoid paying the supplement! Based on my experience of travelling on a 197 for the first time, there are going to be a lot of people who aren't regular users of them getting caught out. The signage needs to be far better, or they are going to be getting a lot of people resisting paying where it isn't clear.

Until I read this thread, I had assumed that they had done the same thing in each coach - a way of making some extra money where the regular seats happened to be slightly further apart.

 

[Lewisham2221]

It was the first time that I had travelled on a 197, so I just assumed that the decent seat and table were due to a 197 being better than a 150. It was certainly nowhere near what I would expect of first class. There was certainly no pillow, and I don't recall the seat reclining - but then I wasn't expecting it to so wouldn't have been looking for it. I don't associate a table as being an indication that a higher fare applies. And I don't recall seeing any sign on a partition door, but to be honest I don't recall there being a partition door - it would already have been open as I followed other people in.

The signage is certainly far less clear than first class, where there are signs on the outside of a coach that you can see before you get in, on every window once you are in, and every seat. And certainly far less obvious than in Avanti's standard premium.

You would be hard pushed not to know that you are sitting in a first class seat. Whereas the first I knew that Standard Premium even existed on TfW was some time after I had sat down, when I spotted the sign above the opposite window. And that signage was only above certain seats, certainly not above them all, leading me to believe that only those particular seats were premium. The clear impression that those signs gave me is that you are paying extra for those particular face to face seats that have extra leg room. I certainly wasn't aware that it applied to every seat in that saloon, including the airline seats, indeed I was considering moving to one of those airline seats to avoid paying the supplement! Based on my experience of travelling on a 197 for the first time, there are going to be a lot of people who aren't regular users of them getting caught out. The signage needs to be far better, or they are going to be getting a lot of people resisting paying where it isn't clear.

Until I read this thread, I had assumed that they had done the same thing in each coach - a way of making some extra money where the regular seats happened to be slightly further apart.

Is it possible that you weren't actually sitting in the Standard Plus section, but in a standard seat? The units which have Standard Plus have an advertising banner at roughly alternating windows throughout the standard sections. You would almost certainly be able to tell the difference between Standard and Standard Plus, the latter has:

• 2+1 seating
• Table at every seat
• Wider, reclining seats with more cushioning and a headrest cushion*
• A table light
• A smallish section at the end of the DMS (non-toilet carriage), with a partition and door (with Standard Plus branding) separating it from the rest of the train

 

[Kite159]

This idea that the accommodation will be declassified if the units run away from the list of routes on the website is one which exists in your imagination only. GWR don't declassify First class on the IETs even though they've been cascaded onto regional services.

And GWR went the other way to introduce first class fares for those routes which are served by the regional IETs where they didn't previously exist.

Although first class on those services do carry fresh air

 

[Bikeman78]

This idea that the accommodation will be declassified if the units run away from the list of routes on the website is one which exists in your imagination only. GWR don't declassify First class on the IETs even though they've been cascaded onto regional services.

If that is the case, why is there a list at all? I think it will cause hassle on trains such as the 1723 Cardiff to Maesteg, if standard plus is chargeable.

 

[Woolos 22]

It is interesting that standard plus is Swansea to severn tunnel juction when it 197 are in the future years are not plan to operate to Cheltenham .

 

[Krokodil]

If that is the case, why is there a list at all?

Presumably to promote the service to business travellers. Though the choice of routes seems weird

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Upgrades are suspended with no replacement date now lined up as far as I'm aware.

That still the case? No ticket inspection between Ludlow and Wilmslow on yesterday's 1249 Cardiff Central->Manchester Piccadilly TfW service operated by 197116.

 

[MP393]

That still the case? No ticket inspection between Ludlow and Wilmslow on yesterday's 1249 Cardiff Central->Manchester Piccadilly TfW service operated by 197116.

It’s still the case yes, no further updates have been sent out so still all standard class

 

[Bikeman78]

That still the case? No ticket inspection between Ludlow and Wilmslow on yesterday's 1249 Cardiff Central->Manchester Piccadilly TfW service operated by 197116.

The public seem to have got wise to the standard plus seats. On my last trip, every seat was taken but the standard section of the same coach was less than half full.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The public seem to have got wise to the standard plus seats. On my last trip, every seat was taken but the standard section of the same coach was less than half full.

Lucky to get any seat yesterday. Full and standing between Crewe and Shrewsbury on the way down to Ludlow earlier yesterday in a wedged two car Class 197.

 

[Western 52]

Although tfw have apparently abandoned standard plus now, the branding remains on the units. I was a lone passenger in SP in 197121 earlier today, with others all avoiding it probably as they thought it costs more. Presumably they will remove the branding eventually.