TfW website selling tickets that are not valid?

[0B00]

Seems it’s possible to buy a Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton advance single with 16-25 railcard for a train at 0730 on a weekday and pay under £12.00. I always thought fares were rounded up to the minimum fare if the RC discount took them under the threshold. Now the issue is my friend has had a penalty fare for £114 issued on arrival at Wolverhampton having purchased such a ticket for £3.95 for the 0730 train on 9-1-24. Looking now, the other permutations are all rounded up to £12 but for example on 19-1 I can get that as AP for £7.90. Am I missing something here?

 

[skyhigh]

Advances aren't subject to the minimum fare rule.

 

[ExpressTrain]

Seems it’s possible to buy a Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton advance single with 16-25 railcard for a train at 0730 on a weekday and pay under £12.00. I always thought fares were rounded up to the minimum fare if the RC discount took them under the threshold. Now the issue is my friend has had a penalty fare for £114 issued on arrival at Wolverhampton having purchased such a ticket for £3.95 for the 0730 train on 9-1-24. Looking now, the other permutations are all rounded up to £12 but for example on 19-1 I can get that as AP for £7.90. Am I missing something here?

If your friend had an advance for that timed train and the appropriate railcard then the penalty fare is invalid because as stated above, the minimum fare does not apply to advances. They should appeal it.

I had a similar issue last year with TfW revenue staff in Shrewsbury with an advance for that train but going to Birmingham instead of wolves. They insisted the ticket was not valid and I needed to buy a new one. Bought one to keep the inspectors happy, then got it refunded later by TfW.

 

[yorkie]

Seems it’s possible to buy a Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton advance single with 16-25 railcard for a train at 0730 on a weekday and pay under £12.00.

Perfectly valid; there is no minimum fare on this ticket type

I always thought fares were rounded up to the minimum fare if the RC discount took them under the threshold.

Yes it would be rounded to £12 (or, if cheaper, an undiscounted ticket should be sold) if the journey is during the months of September to June (i.e. not during July/August) and if it was a ticket type which is subject to the minimum. There is no minimum fare for Advance fares.

Now the issue is my friend has had a penalty fare for £114 issued on arrival at Wolverhampton having purchased such a ticket for £3.95 for the 0730 train on 9-1-24. Looking now, the other permutations are all rounded up to £12 but for example on 19-1 I can get that as AP for £7.90. Am I missing something here?

The Penalty Fare was incorrectly issued; the PF should be refunded and an apology issued by the relevant train company (I would guess this is perhaps West Midlands Trains?)

 

[Haywain]

Now the issue is my friend has had a penalty fare for £114 issued on arrival at Wolverhampton having purchased such a ticket for £3.95 for the 0730 train on 9-1-24.

Is this definitely the reason for the Penalty Fare being issued? Or is there a possibility your friend wasn't actually on the train they had booked.

 

[0B00]

Is this definitely the reason for the Penalty Fare being issued? Or is there a possibility your friend wasn't actually on the train they had booked.

Sure is. Issued at 0812. Train arrived at 0808. Reason stated as OTHER.

Perfectly valid; there is no minimum fare on this ticket type

Yes it would be rounded to £12 (or, if cheaper, an undiscounted ticket should be sold) if the journey is during the months of September to June (i.e. not during July/August) and if it was a ticket type which is subject to the minimum. There is no minimum fare for Advance fares.

The Penalty Fare was incorrectly issued; the PF should be refunded and an apology issued by the relevant train company (I would guess this is perhaps West Midlands Trains?)

Thought so. Sadly he appealed immediately and the appeal was declined! I’ve told him to re-appeal.

 

[fandroid]

I have had a quick look for published information on 16-25 Railcards that mention the exemption from the minimum fare rule for Advance tickets. That exemption is absent from the FAQ that are published. Does anyone have access to the complete T&Cs?

 

[800Travel]

I have had a quick look for published information on 16-25 Railcards that mention the exemption from the minimum fare rule for Advance tickets. That exemption is absent from the FAQ that are published. Does anyone have access to the complete T&Cs?

This link is for the 16-25 railcard terms

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

The relevant section is 4.5:

Conditions of use of the 16-25 Railcard

...

4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare. This minimum fare does not apply to:

4.5.1. Advance tickets; or

4.5.2. journeys on public holidays; or

4.5.3. journeys during July and August.

At the time of printing, the minimum fare is £12. The minimum fare is subject to change during the validity of your Railcard - check website for the most up to date information.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This link is for the 16-25 railcard terms

Railcard Terms & Conditions - 16-25 Railcard

A 16-25 Railcard costs just �30 and it'll save you 1/3 on rail fares throughout Great Britain for a whole year.

www.16-25railcard.co.uk

See in particular, clause 4.5.1

Extracts...

4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare. This minimum fare does not apply to:

4.5.1. Advance tickets; or

4.5.2. journeys on public holidays; or

4.5.3. journeys during July and August.

At the time of printing, the minimum fare is £12. The minimum fare is subject to change during the validity of your Railcard - check website for the most up to date information.

 

[fandroid]

I have found it now. But there are plenty of mentions of the minimum fare that do not include the Advance ticket exemptions. Here is an extract:

 

[trainophile]

How did the OP's friend buy the ticket? If they bought it from a valid itinerary either online or at a ticket office there shouldn't have been any issue raised.

 

[Alex365Dash]

How did the OP's friend buy the ticket? If they bought it from a valid itinerary either online or at a ticket office there shouldn't have been any issue raised.

Considering it’s an Advance, I’d say the likelihood of having the ticket without a valid itinerary is exactly zero! (Even the likes of a Flowbird ticket machine would’ve sold it against an itinerary.)

 

[Watershed]

Considering it’s an Advance, I’d say the likelihood of having the ticket without a valid itinerary is exactly zero! (Even the likes of a Flowbird ticket machine would’ve sold it against an itinerary.)

I think the question is more whether the OP's friend travelled on the train they booked.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think the question is more whether the OP's friend travelled on the train they booked.

I would tend to agree - considering it was confirmed that the advance was for the 0730 TfW train:

Seems it’s possible to buy a Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton advance single with 16-25 railcard for a train at 0730 on a weekday and pay under £12.00.

Checking on RealTimeTrains, it departed that day at 0732, and OP says

Train arrived at 0808.

which rather suggests that train travelled on was the 0810 WMR service, hence the problem?

 

[Snow1964]

The penalty fare is incorrect if using advance, and on the correct train. However it is correct if using another train instead.

Sounds like poor explanation of ticket needed to have £12 minimum, is reason for penalty, when it should have been your ticket is not for the train used, and thus not valid.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I would tend to agree - considering it was confirmed that the advance was for the 0730 TfW train:

Checking on RealTimeTrains, it departed that day at 0732, and OP says

which rather suggests that train travelled on was the 0810 WMR service, hence the problem?

0808 is the time that the TfW service arrived at Wolves, with the PF being issued there at 0812

 

[Snow1964]

0808 is the time that the TfW service arrived at Wolves, with the PF being issued there at 0812

So was PF issued on train, or on arrival at barrier (say 1-3 minutes after arrival, and 1-3 minutes time taken to issue it.)

If it was correct train then clearly staff at Wolverhampton are in wrong, and it training and managing failure by whoever runs the station. Sounds like person who rejected penalty also doesn't know what they are doing either. Complete lack of quality control and professionalism.

 

[0B00]

So was PF issued on train, or on arrival at barrier (say 1-3 minutes after arrival, and 1-3 minutes time taken to issue it.)

If it was correct train then clearly staff at Wolverhampton are in wrong, and it training and managing failure by whoever runs the station. Sounds like person who rejected penalty also doesn't know what they are doing either. Complete lack of quality control and professionalism.

Yes indeed. That is what happened.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes indeed. That is what happened.

Then your friend should appeal the Penalty Fare, citing that Advances do not have the minimum fare, and quoting the Railcard page URL confirming this. The appeal should be accepted. If it isn't, appeal twice more with differently worded versions of the same thing, as the third appeal is by a different set of people.

 

[0B00]

Update: After sending story to a director at TfW on Friday last week, the second appeal was allowed today. Good outcome for the lad, but shocking behaviour by WMT.