TGV Dispatch methods

[Class999999]

Hi guys, does anyone know how the TGVs are dispatched in France, is it different methods depending on the station,
Also for that matter how does it work on other french services

 

[SHD]

The French standard dispatch procedure, applicable to all TOCs, is here: https://www.securite-ferroviaire.fr...tations/pdf/2023-03/rc-ab-2c-num-2-v2-mac.pdf

SNCF Voyageurs (the TOC) obviously has further, more precise procedures, but in a nutshell:

- when departing from the station of origin, or from a station where the train consist has been modified, the driver performs a series of checks and tests (brakes, safety systems, radio…) to ensure that the train is “ready for despatch”

- before departure, the driver must obtain positive confirmation that the “service des voyageurs” - all passenger-related duties have been satisfactorily performed and that doors are closed. Confirmation may be obtained by the driver himself for “EAS - équipement à agent seul” - DOO trains, by the driver from on-board staff, or from station staff. Transmission of information from on-bord staff to the driver may occur by voice but most frequently through the intercom - two rings of the cab bell activated by the guard’s special key.

- the driver must also positively ensure that he is actually authorised to proceed.

- to be even more specific, on a TGV, the process is as follows:
The guard stands at his door, ensuring that all passengers have boarded / alighted. The guard turns his key to the P position of the intercom device. The door-closing horn activates and all doors begin closing except the guard door. The guard waits for 30 seconds, visually checks that all doors are fully closed and that the on-board diagnosis system does not indicate a door-related fault. The guard sends a signal to the driver turning his key to S, a double bell rings in the cab, the driver checks that LSPO - his local doors-opened lamp - is off, checks that he is authorised to proceed, and starts driving. Meanwhile, the guard’s local door closes and the guard maintains the key on the P position for one more minute (to cater for an unexpected train stop).

 

[stadler]

The French standard dispatch procedure, applicable to all TOCs, is here: https://www.securite-ferroviaire.fr...tations/pdf/2023-03/rc-ab-2c-num-2-v2-mac.pdf

SNCF Voyageurs (the TOC) obviously has further, more precise procedures, but in a nutshell:

- when departing from the station of origin, or from a station where the train consist has been modified, the driver performs a series of checks and tests (brakes, safety systems, radio…) to ensure that the train is “ready for despatch”

- before departure, the driver must obtain positive confirmation that the “service des voyageurs” - all passenger-related duties have been satisfactorily performed and that doors are closed. Confirmation may be obtained by the driver himself for “EAS - équipement à agent seul” - DOO trains, by the driver from on-board staff, or from station staff. Transmission of information from on-bord staff to the driver may occur by voice but most frequently through the intercom - two rings of the cab bell activated by the guard’s special key.

- the driver must also positively ensure that he is actually authorised to proceed.

- to be even more specific, on a TGV, the process is as follows:
The guard stands at his door, ensuring that all passengers have boarded / alighted. The guard turns his key to the P position of the intercom device. The door-closing horn activates and all doors begin closing except the guard door. The guard waits for 30 seconds, visually checks that all doors are fully closed and that the on-board diagnosis system does not indicate a door-related fault. The guard sends a signal to the driver turning his key to S, a double bell rings in the cab, the driver checks that LSPO - his local doors-opened lamp - is off, checks that he is authorised to proceed, and starts driving. Meanwhile, the guard’s local door closes and the guard maintains the key on the P position for one more minute (to cater for an unexpected train stop).

Interesting to hear that they use bell codes. I thought that the UK (and a few other British empire countries like Australia and New Zealand etc) were unique in doing that. I know that Eurostar do but i never realised that the TGV does too.

So a two bell code happens by turning the key to a certain position once rather than pressing a bell button twice? Does the driver on TGV trains repeat the two bells back? Also does the guard have the ability to send any other bell codes (like emergency stop for example) like we have?

Also if i have understood you correctly the train starts moving with the guards local door open? So the local door only shuts once the train begins moving? In the UK almost none of our trains are able to move with a local door open (not even with a cab door open) so i am surprised that French health and safety even allows that?

 

[SHD]

I was not perfectly precise.
This video shows the process well :

At the beginning, you can hear the horn and you can see that the key is in the full clockwise position (P), which is a stable one. All other train doors are closing.
The guard leans out and checks visually. He waits a tiny little bit, turns the key into the neutral position, which triggers the closing sequence of his local door.
But he cannot leave the key in the neutral position, as all other doors would then be unlocked. So he turns the key again in the clockwise position.
When his local door is closed, he turns the key twice in the anti-clockwise direction (the position is not stable), which sends the bell signal to the driver.
He then puts the key a final time in the P position to ensure that all doors remain locked. Note that the speed interlock kicks in at 6 km/h anyway.

Another video where you only see the local door closing sequence:

 

[stadler]

I was not perfectly precise.
This video shows the process well :

At the beginning, you can hear the horn and you can see that the key is in the full clockwise position (P), which is a stable one. All other train doors are closing.
The guard leans out and checks visually. He waits a tiny little bit, turns the key into the neutral position, which triggers the closing sequence of his local door.
But he cannot leave the key in the neutral position, as all other doors would then be unlocked. So he turns the key again in the clockwise position.
When his local door is closed, he turns the key twice in the anti-clockwise direction (the position is not stable), which sends the bell signal to the driver.
He then puts the key a final time in the P position to ensure that all doors remain locked. Note that the speed interlock kicks in at 6 km/h anyway.

Another video where you only see the local door closing sequence:

Thank you for sharing those two videos. As someone who used to work as a Guard here in the UK it is always interesting to see how other countries do it.

So it seems each turn to the left plays one bell. So they turn it twice for two bells. I presume there could possibly be other bell codes as well. That first video (looks like an older TGV unit) is more of a buzzer sound and that second video (looks like a newer TGV unit) is more of a whistle sound.

It does seem like a rather complex way of doing it with all those various turns on the key switch. I wonder why they did not just install proper panels with a button to close the other doors and a button to close the local door and a bell button.

 

[signed]

It does seem like a rather complex way of doing it with all those various turns on the key switch. I wonder why they did not just install proper panels with a button to close the other doors and a button to close the local door and a bell button.

As a uninformed, I would suspect commonality accross the fleet. If it is that way on Réseau, it likely originated on Sud-Est sets back in the 80s.

 

[SHD]

I think that the keyed intercom system ("dispositif de correspondance" or "monocoup") is even older and was already in use in EMUs in the 1960s.

For your amusement, the door-closing vigilance sound alarm of older TGVs, which you describe as more of a buzzer sound, is called "ronfleur" in French, literally "the snorer".

 

[stadler]

I just found this video from CFL in Luxembourg but it looks like they use similar practices to the TGV trains:

If you look at both 00:40 and also 01:16 the guard turns her key to the right to close her local door and then immediately turns her key three times to the left which is presumably giving three bells. So it seems that they may use a three bells code. It looks like they use the same Berne key that SNCF use on the TGV units. I wonder if some TER trains in France may use this method too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also if i have understood you correctly the train starts moving with the guards local door open? So the local door only shuts once the train begins moving? In the UK almost none of our trains are able to move with a local door open (not even with a cab door open) so i am surprised that French health and safety even allows that?

This of course is safer for passengers as the guard can watch the train out and stop it in case of an incident. This in the UK is now lost.

I've mentioned it a few times, but I have witnessed an incident on Merseyrail which was only not fatal because the driver saw it in the DOO cameras and stopped. Yet there are lots of trains in the UK, indeed most of them, where once two have been given there is no practical chance of stopping an incident because nobody can see properly.

 

[SHD]

That Luxembourgish train is actually a French-made train (Z2 or Z11500 in SNCF parlance) in CFL livery.

 

[MarcVD]

Belgium : the driver has a tablet and the guard a smart watch. the guard closes the doors and then informs the
driver from his smartwatch that the train is ready to depart. Any other country using such a setup ?

 

[SHD]

What communications protocol does that new Belgian procedure rely on? GSM-R?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find that a curious approach which seems to me to have a big potential flaw - what if one of them is logged into the wrong train? It would be possible for a dispatch instruction to be given for a train that isn't ready to start without realising it. See also incidents that have occurred in the UK using signalling by voice radio.

 

[rvdborgt]

What communications protocol does that new Belgian procedure rely on? GSM-R?

I believe it does.

 

[MarcVD]

What communications protocol does that new Belgian procedure rely on? GSM-R?

As far as I know, no GSM-R, which would be impossible because there are no portable devices available that can use it. The smart watch communicates over Bluetooth to the guard's smartphone, and from there to the driver's tablet over plain IP using the regular service of a commercial mobile phone operator (I think it's Orange but not 100% sure of that). I think it also works with the internal SNCB network wifi coverage in the stations that have it. I have already witnessed difficulties to make that procedure work properly in tiny remote stations were mobile phone network coverage is a bit weak.