Thameslink - how naive can I be?

[Falcon1200]

I'd always encourage station management or similar staff to visit their local Control (and vice versa) to see what its like; unfortunately these visits always seem to happen when there's no disruption and people are broadly twiddling their thumbs!

Agree 100%, and in addition I would say that training for all railway staff should include at least a shift, or preferably several, in both NR and TOC Controls. However on a really bad day such as the Thameslink incident discussed here the Controllers won't have a lot of time to speak to visitors !

Making short, sharp, prompt decisions can reduced the overall disruption, as can implementing arranged contingency plans.

There were occasions when I advocated withdrawing the train service from stations which could otherwise have been served because it would make a big difference to the overall disruption to the greatest number of passengers - Which is not to say that nothing should have been done for those stations, however.

 

[Horizon22]

Agree 100%, and in addition I would say that training for all railway staff should include at least a shift, or preferably several, in both NR and TOC Controls. However on a really bad day such as the Thameslink incident discussed here the Controllers won't have a lot of time to speak to visitors !



There were occasions when I advocated withdrawing the train service from stations which could otherwise have been served because it would make a big difference to the overall disruption to the greatest number of passengers - Which is not to say that nothing should have been done for those stations, however.

That's true - but even on a quiet day getting an idea of what is happening, what routes each control is responsible for, the tasks that may need to be done is helpful; most visitors are amazed by how many screens there are!

To some extent service control decisions are something of a "dark art" but only because you need to know a route like the back of your hand and have a general appreciation of what a operational decision to run fast / terminate short / call additionally / cancel / "step up" / reroute will do, and sometimes you need to do a best guess because nobody can assess every variable. And then that's something that has to be done ten times over all whilst other trains are being delayed and disrupted...

It's not an easy task and this why most TOCs will have (and should implement quickly!) contingency plans, although they cannot cover every forseeable variable. At a local level, the decision might appear completely crazy and no, a controller will not make a perfect decision every time, but there will be a "why and how" but that might not be evidently obvious. For instance Thameslink withdrawing a Rainham service would expect people to circulate via Southeastern instead.

 

[zwk500]

Agree 100%, and in addition I would say that training for all railway staff should include at least a shift, or preferably several, in both NR and TOC Controls. However on a really bad day such as the Thameslink incident discussed here the Controllers won't have a lot of time to speak to visitors !

I've found sitting at the back and watching people work at full throttle just as educational as having an in-depth chat with them during the lulls.

 

[Bald Rick]

First time I can remember a broken rail in the core, certainly the first time since it was all relaid over a decade ago.

The rail in the core is made from a special grade of steel to be more resistant to breaks and defects - much more expensive, but (until yesterday), much less likely to have a defect.

From the pictures I’ve seen this was a failure of a weld rather than the steel of the rail itself, with a small part of the railhead becoming detached (rather than a clean break through the rail).

 

[c52]

A punctual train seems to be in the platform for ages at St Pancras - maybe they could have cut that time down by 30 sec to compensate for the slow arrival.

 

[rg177]

I've found sitting at the back and watching people work at full throttle just as educational as having an in-depth chat with them during the lulls.

I remember being in the control room at Sandhills when something kicked off big-style on the Wirral Lines. It was quite fascinating to just step back and watch the staff get on with fighting to get services back to normal. Of course, Merseyrail is self contained too, so fairly small-scale compared to what you'd see elsewhere on the network.

 

[gingerheid]

Thameslink really makes me worry for Crossrail

We're now four (or two, either way my point remains) years into the new service and it is still utterly dire; days on which a full* pre 9am arrival service from either Cambridge or St Neots to the Core actually runs (whether or not on time) are still in the minority.

The prospect of this disaster in progress being merged with a more intensively used ECML is terrifying.

*where 'full' accepts that Cambridge to Maidstone will never exist (I hope).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crossrail is much simpler than Thameslink. In effect, Crossrail is basically the Merseyrail Northern Line in purple with higher capacity, and that runs extremely punctually.

Thameslink has a lot of knock-on that Crossrail doesn't, and that's why it never really works properly. Linking on all the extra stuff instead of it remaining a simple Bedford-Brighton and Sutton service was almost another Ordsall Chord in terms of being a bad plan with predictable results.

 

[jon0844]

A punctual train seems to be in the platform for ages at St Pancras - maybe they could have cut that time down by 30 sec to compensate for the slow arrival.

I assume it's all tightly regulated to ensure the trains slot in as required at both ends of the core, and given they aren't running at the full 24tph for now (I won't say if ever, given rail usage is increasing again and the Government telling everyone to go back to commuting) there's probably some slack in the current diagrams.

 

[Deepgreen]

ok so more of an infrastructure question really, but do the wheel flats (even if they're small) that some of these 700s are running around with contribute to the degrading of rails

Not especially and it's not the season for them really. I don't think the 700s' axle-loadings are very high anyway, so shouldn't be an issue.

 

[choochoochoo]

Well "Control" have to think about passengers as a big picture. With all due respect to this CSM, who is looking at the local needs of their area, if there is no semblanace of trains "back in the right place" the disruption will go on even longer because then crews and stock will be utterly displaced and then even more people will be disrupted for a longer period. Making short, sharp, prompt decisions can reduced the overall disruption, as can implementing arranged contingency plans.

As for communications, there's some truth in this but when the number of calls per hour goes from say 10 to 100, and the actions needed triples or quadruples, the number of staff within Control doesn't go up 10x, and calls have to be priortised on operational decisions. Occasionally this means that its hard to be abreast of every station issue at once which means there will be gaps in service. Especially true on Thameslink through the core which is very intense. In this instance you'd be looking at turning trains at St Pancras (High Level) and London Bridge, with maybe a service group able to use bays at Blackfriars (if they can weave within the Sevenoaks services). There will be unavoidable large gaps though because you've cut the capacity of the railway significantly - one of the flaws of through running a high-intensity service.

I'd always encourage station management or similar staff to visit their local Control (and vice versa) to see what its like; unfortunately these visits always seem to happen when there's no disruption and people are broadly twiddling their thumbs!

What I struggle to understand is why GTR don't use the upload facility on the 700 PIS so they can broadcast an update to passengers through that. If you can upload latest TfL tube line status why can't you send a message say to all trains saying the disruption is due to XXX ?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think the bigger issue with not running the Rainham service is that it leaves Higham completely unserved.

This is frustrating for Higham users, though usage I imagine is low but nevertheless frustrating for them, I wonder if it warrants HS1 trains stopping there in addition to Thameslink? There were plans for Higham to be served by HS1 trains in the beginning, but we’re dropped in favour of keeping on the old CX-Gillingham service.

 

[bramling]

I remember being in the control room at Sandhills when something kicked off big-style on the Wirral Lines. It was quite fascinating to just step back and watch the staff get on with fighting to get services back to normal. Of course, Merseyrail is self contained too, so fairly small-scale compared to what you'd see elsewhere on the network.

Merseyrail is horrific to get back after disruption for a number of reasons - the Liverpool Central-Kirkby services being tightly timed at each end, trains reversing in the platforms at Liverpool Central, the single-track stubs at Ormskirk, Kirkby and Hunts Cross, and on the Wirral side the lack of turnround time at the Liverpool end, the Borderlands Line services slotting in at Bidston, and the tight turnrounds at Chester. Recovering a disrupted Merseyrail service really isn't for the faint-hearted, especially doing it in a way which is passenger-friendly!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail is horrific to get back after disruption for a number of reasons - the Liverpool Central-Kirkby services being tightly timed at each end, trains reversing in the platforms at Liverpool Central, the single-track stubs at Ormskirk, Kirkby and Hunts Cross, and on the Wirral side the lack of turnround time at the Liverpool end, the Borderlands Line services slotting in at Bidston, and the tight turnrounds at Chester. Recovering a disrupted Merseyrail service really isn't for the faint-hearted, especially doing it in a way which is passenger-friendly!

If you were willing to cost everyone (in normal times) up to 15 minutes, you could do it fairly easily by just moving trains forward to/holding trains in platforms then releasing once the clock moves round to the next 15 minute slot. It would leave everything "stepped up", though, I suppose.

It helps that there's relatively little (if any at all, I forget what it's like at the moment) interworking between routes.

 

[Falcon1200]

That's true - but even on a quiet day getting an idea of what is happening, what routes each control is responsible for, the tasks that may need to be done is helpful; most visitors are amazed by how many screens there are!

True enough, although people would I think also benefit to some degree from seeing the pressure Controllers are under on an extreme day (Carmont sadly being a case in point). And that would apply to management too, particularly those who came into Control on a quiet day and wondered why they were paying all these people to sit drinking tea and chatting, as opposed to those who were delighted to see Controllers idle as it meant the railway was running well !

If you were willing to cost everyone (in normal times) up to 15 minutes, you could do it fairly easily by just moving trains forward to/holding trains in platforms then releasing once the clock moves round to the next 15 minute slot.

I did that one day, on a half-hourly service when trains were being delayed up to 30 minutes, however it put every Traincrew off-diagram and I had to be very careful not to end up with a train in one place and its relief crew somewhere else. IIRC it was a Sunday and the reduced service made it feasible.

 

[JaJaWa]

There’s a reason the JR East and JR Central Shinkansen networks have no physical track connection in Tokyo…

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes I would have thought so, platform's 1-3 aren't particularly busy most of the time.

How many trains per hour come through 1-3 ? What about the impact at North Kent East ?

 

[bramling]

If you were willing to cost everyone (in normal times) up to 15 minutes, you could do it fairly easily by just moving trains forward to/holding trains in platforms then releasing once the clock moves round to the next 15 minute slot. It would leave everything "stepped up", though, I suppose.

It helps that there's relatively little (if any at all, I forget what it's like at the moment) interworking between routes.

You can do this at a location where either every train has a crew relief (and your relieving drivers are all available, as opposed to being caught in the disruption somewhere) and/or if you have enough spares available to "make up" those for which you don't have drivers.

On Merseyrail the only places you'd be able to do this are Birkenhead Central, Kirkdale and Southport, in other words where the crew relief points are. But only if everyone required is in place. There's also the slight issue that you don't ideally want to be reforming a 3-car into a 6-car, or vice versa, nor a train which the depot wants back that night, etc etc etc.

 

[MattRat]

Trains cracking, rails snapping...

Alright, which one of you swapped all the metal for paper mache?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Every time there's a problem on the Thameslink Core we have a thread like this.

I'm not sure there's an easy solution though - if there was it would have been implemented by now. I think this kind of disruption is the price of having a very intensive service from many locations through the core. The only way to avoid this kind of problem would be to significantly cut back services/destinations to provide much more slack in the timetable. Not sure that would be ideal when you consider that most days the service runs without a problem.

There are solutions by diverting trains. Like Suttons into BFR and splitting the Cambridge - Brighton service either side of the core and put on an Earlswood and Salfords stops on the HRH-PBO's so you can remove the 9R's.

This weekend was awkward though with Victoria services already on diversion into LBG so lack of platform capacity as well so many additional knock on delays south of the river.

Anyhow mtce teams got it fixed overnight.

 

[jamesst]

If you were willing to cost everyone (in normal times) up to 15 minutes, you could do it fairly easily by just moving trains forward to/holding trains in platforms then releasing once the clock moves round to the next 15 minute slot. It would leave everything "stepped up", though, I suppose.

It helps that there's relatively little (if any at all, I forget what it's like at the moment) interworking between routes.

Yeah could never happen im afraid, the traincrew diagrams would be left all over the place which would be more of a hinderence to a return to normality. Not forgetting that drivers/guards diagrams can be quite different aswell.

 

[Bald Rick]

A punctual train seems to be in the platform for ages at St Pancras - maybe they could have cut that time down by 30 sec to compensate for the slow arrival.

60 seconds dwell time standard, but when running in ATO they will tend to arrive half a minute earlier, so the dwell is longer.

Anyhow mtce teams got it fixed overnight.

temporarily. Needs a proper fix.

 

[dk1]

It’s just how it is. These things happen on the railway lol

 

[Tetchytyke]

they were often unable to pass any information on to passengers because "control" wouldn't let them know what was happening

There's an aviation saying "aviate - navigate - communicate". You prioritise and communicating updates to CSMs is low down the list when the muck has hit the ventilation device and it's all hands on deck; communication comes when everything else is under control.

It no doubt helped that the S-Bahn shared its tracks with few other trains.

If Thameslink were self-contained we'd not be having the conversation. Everything would be delayed through the ESR but there wouldn't be any pathing issues elsewhere, everything could just plod along with the same delay.

Interestingly, the Frankfurt S-Bahn Wikipedia page has a whole section on punctuality problems caused by the twin-track tunnel

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Thameslink were self-contained we'd not be having the conversation. Everything would be delayed through the ESR but there wouldn't be any pathing issues elsewhere, everything could just plod along with the same delay.

Indeed. The problems it has are basically the same as that other bastion of running trains from everywhere to everywhere via a crowded 2-track central bit, Castlefield. You'd think those designing these things would learn, but oh no...

Meanwhile, Merseyrail and London Underground demonstrate very well how this sort of intensively-worked urban corridor can work pretty punctually.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Indeed. The problems it has are basically the same as that other bastion of running trains from everywhere to everywhere via a crowded 2-track central bit, Castlefield. You'd think those designing these things would learn, but oh no...

Meanwhile, Merseyrail and London Underground demonstrate very well how this sort of intensively-worked urban corridor can work pretty punctually.

Am I misunderstanding your points?

Both Merseyrail and London Underground are essentially two-track railways. (Yes, I know about the Metropolitan north of Harrow but it's hardly typical of the network.) Merseyrail has rather lower frequencies, which makes a huge difference in terms of the impact of a speed restriction or 'talking by' a failed signal.

I must be imagining all those "X line is part suspended" announcements. And I'm not talking about engineering works. Yes, in Zone 1 there is often a fairly straightforward alternative line(s) when there is a closure, which makes it less critical for many passengers, at least off-peak. This is obviously not possible for the Thameslink core. Neither is it a meaningful parallel to the 'Higham syndrome'. Getting stuck at West Harrow or Becontree is no fun at all.

Having few (or no) junctions is not a panacea.

 

[jon0844]

What I struggle to understand is why GTR don't use the upload facility on the 700 PIS so they can broadcast an update to passengers through that. If you can upload latest TfL tube line status why can't you send a message say to all trains saying the disruption is due to XXX ?

Because the necessary software updates to add the functionality they're capable of comes down to approval from the DfT and it would seem they struggled before the pandemic, and probably have little to no chance right now.

It is very annoying to only get TfL information and not information on GTR services (or indeed other services from major terminals/interchanges) and it would be especially useful for the deaf who won't necessarily hear manual announcements made by the driver.

 

[modernrail]

My biggest problem with Thameslink distribution, other than the frequency of it, is the utter lack of explanation and provision of a workaround.

For instance, when the northern line is running it can be a bridge between St P and London Bridge and/or Elephant and Castle. However, they never seem to make use of it to bridge a problem in the core, turning trains at either end.

 

[zwk500]

My biggest problem with Thameslink distribution, other than the frequency of it, is the utter lack of explanation and provision of a workaround.

For instance, when the northern line is running it can be a bridge between St P and London Bridge and/or Elephant and Castle. However, they never seem to make use of it to bridge a problem in the core, turning trains at either end.

Certainly at the moment with the bank rebuild cramming people onto the northern line isn't massively sensible, but even without that work the Northern line was already busy enough, and knowledgeable thameslink passengers would use it anyway, that advertising it any further would probably have created dangerous overloading.

 

[modernrail]

Certainly at the moment with the bank rebuild cramming people onto the northern line isn't massively sensible, but even without that work the Northern line was already busy enough, and knowledgeable thameslink passengers would use it anyway, that advertising it any further would probably have created dangerous overloading.

I am not sure I agree. At the moment obviously. The connection doesn’t exist. When it does exist people need to get from A to B even if that means being held to get on to platforms etc. A system like London’s has to have flexibility in that regard and that happens when other lines are down. For instance, northern line passengers are not being advised to stay at home during the blockade are they. Especially if they are civil servants They are told about workarounds that include very busy alternative routes.

The other reason I would have thought it sensible to turn services at London Bridge, E&C and St P is to help improve service recovery. I am not an expert in this regard at all but it seems to me the plan on TL is often to stack rather than turn, then cancellations galore, so the whole thing just seizes up and passengers are really left high and dry.