Thameslink Seat Reservations

[Hadders]

I've noticed that GTR have introduced counted place reservations on Bedford/Cambridge/Bedford to Brighton/Horsham services. Interestingly on Sundays only one train an hour from the GN side runs into the core, the other fast services terminates at Kings Cross and reservations aren't available on these services or on the stopping 'semi fast' services into Kings Cross.

Does anyone know what GTR are up to. Is this:

1. Because they're planning on introducing Advance fares
2. A half baked idea to try and manage the number of tickets sold for each train
3. Some other reason....

I really don't think this is a good idea for the following reasons:

1. The service from places like Bedford, Hitchin, Luton, St Albans, Stevenage etc is effectively turn up and go. This isn't compatible with Advance tickets, and GTR really ought to be looking to simplify fares by introducing PAYG rather complicating matters with Advance fares
2. People generally just get the first available train, especially on the way home and I foresee disputes and dissatisfaction if they try and enforce booked train only on Advance tickets
3. At stations in the core you need passengers to board the first train to their destination, not turning up early hanging around on the platform for their booked train. This could be an issue at stations like St Pancras
4. Anyone purchasing a flexible ticket online will automatically get a reservation, many people will mistakenly think they must travel on this train when it isn't the case
5. A passenger with a reservation will be under the impression they are going to get a seat and will be disappointed to find they only have a counted place on the train Why do GTR need counted places when there are no Advance tickets (or are they planning to introduce Advance tickets)
6. This causes issues with longer distance Advance tickets where GTR provide a local connection as you are mandated to get the booked train. I understand it is LNER policy that where LNER is a connecting TOC from Stevenage via London and vice versa e.g "AP London Reading" or "VWC & connections", LNER waives the need for travel on the exact LNER train booked on this relatively short journey, even though retail systems will force a reservation to be made. Will GTR operate a similar policy?

Can anyone shed any light....

 

[HughT]

I can't help with Hadders questions, but thought I might report that I travelled from CBG on Tuesday afternoon on a TL Brighton service, and there was no indication that they were looking for reservations. There were very few passengers, come to that...

We were early for a GN "non-stop", so hadn't had the chance to encounter "counted place reservations" at the booking stage (even though I booked online in advance and not at a station self-service machine). I can't see any sort of restriction working in practice. CBG passengers would soon find a way to disrupt/subvert/circumvent any such restrictions!

Suggestion 7: Limiting the *number* of GTR seats that can be used as "connecting services" for other operators' Advance tickets. (For example, we spent a few days in Edinburgh last week, and used either TL or GN services to SVG, in order to pick up LNER trains.) So, once that allocation is used up you wouldn't be allowed to book an Advance on the relevant mainline operator's service, even if there are spare seats. This sounds silly to me, but stranger things have happened.

OTOH... I was on the 0922 CBG-KGX a couple of Sundays ago, and passengers were reduced to sitting on the floor. So perhaps some sort of regulation might be useful (even though Hadders' report suggests this isn't planned)!?!

 

[Hadders]

Suggestion 7: Limiting the *number* of GTR seats that can be used as "connecting services" for other operators' Advance tickets. (For example, we spent a few days in Edinburgh last week, and used either TL or GN services to SVG, in order to pick up LNER trains.) So, once that allocation is used up you wouldn't be allowed to book an Advance on the relevant mainline operator's service, even if there are spare seats. This sounds silly to me, but stranger things have happened.

I did wonder about this. If it’s not the case it could very well be an unintended consequence.

OTOH... I was on the 0922 CBG-KGX a couple of Sundays ago, and passengers were reduced to sitting on the floor. So perhaps some sort of regulation might be useful (even though Hadders' report suggests this isn't planned)!?!

Sunday mornings is a very busy time for travel between Cambridge and London but I agree that passengers would soon find a way to circumnavigate any restrictions.

There aren’t any onboard staff to do any regular checks (other than occasional RPI appearances) and on a non-stop service asking you to leave the train at the next station isn’t exactly going to achieve anything.

As I said upthread I really don’t think reservations are compatible with any services going through the core.

 

[Geoff_K]

Just bought a London Terminals to Bedford return for the 15th October from the ticket office at CRY, and no counted place seat reservations were included.

 

[Hadders]

Just bought a London Terminals to Bedford return for the 15th October from the ticket office at CRY, and no counted place seat reservations were included.

You won’t get one at a ticket office if you’re buying a walk on ticket (although I suppose you could insist on one). but if you book online you’ll be asked if you want a seat reservation.

 

[JonathanH]

It is sometimes suggested that reservations were only introduced on Southern services to block "&connections" tickets being used to get to London and not go onwards with the 'Intercity' operator.

These through advance fares are now a lot more expensive than they once were but there may still be instances where it undercuts an anytime fare to London. It might be noted that there is a blanket restriction on advance tickets on Southeastern High Speed services for this very reason.

One nuisance of course is that connections in London can often be made very much quicker than the journey planners allow and so putting counted place reservations in does lead to journeys being slowed up.

 

[Haywain]

It is sometimes suggested that reservations were only introduced on Southern services to block "&connections" tickets being used to get to London and not go onwards with the 'Intercity' operator

If that were the case Southern wouldn’t choose to sell Advance tickets of their own.

 

[JonathanH]

If that were the case Southern wouldn’t choose to sell Advance tickets of their own.

They can make different quotas available at peak and off-peak times. I agree that Southern selling advances at off-peak times is a useful strategy. Blocking other operator's advance fares at peak times is also useful.

 

[Hadders]

One nuisance of course is that connections in London can often be made very much quicker than the journey planners allow and so putting counted place reservations in does lead to journeys being slowed up.

Alternatively passengers may wish to travel earlier on their connecting train.

This weekend I’m travelling to Devon for a time sensitive event. I have got a GWR & connections Advance ticket, the departure from Paddington having some redundancy built in should there be a delay.

I’d like to take an earlier connecting train from Stevenage on Saturday morning, wise given the recent Saturday cancellations we’re seeing at present. However, officially I cannot do this as I must travel on the reserved train…

I’m returning on Sunday afternoon, it should be possible to make the cross London connection faster than the journey planner allows, historically not a problem, just get the first train from St Pancras or Kings Cross. But officially that’s not allowed any more and I’ll need to wait on the platform at St Pancras….

I’d like to think this is an unintended consequence rather than part of the plan…..

 

[JonathanH]

Alternatively passengers may wish to travel earlier on their connecting train.

This weekend I’m travelling to Devon for a time sensitive event. I have got a GWR & connections Advance ticket, the departure from Paddington having some redundancy built in should there be a delay.

There are booking engines that allow for an extended connection time so that isn't an insurmountable problem.

I’m returning on Sunday afternoon, it should be possible to make the cross London connection faster than the journey planner allows, historically not a problem, just get the first train from St Pancras or Kings Cross. But officially that’s not allowed any more and I’ll need to wait on the platform at St Pancras….

Yes, a wait is necessary. This is a shame but it does seem that making all trains reservable is the way the railway is going - eg the recent introduction of advance fares on the North Downs line at prices that start higher than the price of an off-peak single with a Network Railcard and where quotas sometimes 'wag the dog' with the cost of the through journey.

I'm sure that the 'connection' operator would prefer you to pay for their ticket for more flexibility.

 

[Hadders]

Yes, a wait is necessary. This is a shame but it does seem that making all trains reservable is the way the railway is going - eg the recent introduction of advance fares on the North Downs line at prices that start higher than the price of an off-peak single with a Network Railcard and where quotas sometimes 'wag the dog' with the cost of the through journey.

Train companies and the DfT keep saying they want to simplify fares while at the same time making them more complicated.

 

[Haywain]

Does anyone know what GTR are up to. Is this:

1. Because they're planning on introducing Advance fares
2. A half baked idea to try and manage the number of tickets sold for each train
3. Some other reason....

I have no idea what they are up to, but it seems very strange to introduce reservations without introducing Advance tickets. If this is designed to manage "... & Connections" tickets it seems rather odd. Either way, if they want it to work they'll need to do a lot more ticket checking than they currently bother with.

 

[Starmill]

The same sort of issues apply on the Buxton and Southport lines unfortunately. There's little you can do about it.

 

[Hadders]

Given it’s all DOO I can’t see them doing any significant additional onboard ticket checks, and the gateline barriers won’t detect if the wrong train has been used.

There is the potential for significant reputation all damage - passenger buys cheapest Advance ticket but just travels on the first available train like they’ve always done, get away with it for years due to lack of onboard checks. Then one day they get chinged and it all kicks off….

I really don’t see why they’re doing this at all.

 

[Starmill]

I have no idea what they are up to, but it seems very strange to introduce reservations without introducing Advance tickets.

Northern do it fairly often. They did it to Southport for years, and they still do it to Buxton today, to give a couple of examples.

 

[Ianno87]

I first got them on Cambridge-Brighton services back in July (a "seat" reservation from City Thameslink!).

My (probably wrong) theory is that it's a precursor to offering Thameslink Advance tickets on the Brighton Main Line as a replacement for brand-specific flexible tickets.

My reasoning is that they are applied on Cambridge-Brighton services, but not on Cambridge-King's Cross stopping services (also Thameslink branded)

 

[Hadders]

I first got them on Cambridge-Brighton services back in July (a "seat" reservation from City Thameslink!).

My (probably wrong) theory is that it's a precursor to offering Thameslink Advance tickets on the Brighton Main Line as a replacement for brand-specific flexible tickets.

My reasoning is that they are applied on Cambridge-Brighton services, but not on Cambridge-King's Cross stopping services (also Thameslink branded)

You could be right, AFAIK reservations aren’t available on the Cambridge Cruiser services either.

 

[Ianno87]

You could be right, AFAIK reservations aren’t available on the Cambridge Cruiser services either.

No, they are not.

 

[Haywain]

Northern do it fairly often. They did it to Southport for years, and they still do it to Buxton today, to give a couple of examples.

The difference is that Northern services are far more likely to have ticket checking, simply because they are not DOO.

 

[Starmill]

The difference is that Northern services are far more likely to have ticket checking, simply because they are not DOO.

Does that really make any difference? If nobody making a journey only on that train will have an Advance ticket?

 

[MikeWM]

OTOH... I was on the 0922 CBG-KGX a couple of Sundays ago, and passengers were reduced to sitting on the floor. So perhaps some sort of regulation might be useful (even though Hadders' report suggests this isn't planned)!?!

The problem with that one is that it is also the first service of the day from north of Cambridge, which I have moaned about from time to time on here As such, pre-Covid it was incredibly busy.

I got it for the first time in a while a month or so ago and at least with the 8-car extension program I could get a seat getting on at Ely, which was tough work when it was only 4-cars...

 

[arb]

How is the average person, who hasn't read this thread, meant to know which trains are reservable and which trains are not (and hence which ones they're allowed to use on the unreserved leg of an advance ticket)?

For as long as I can recall, I've bought advance tickets from "somewhere the other side of London" back home to Cambridge/Ely. The trains from London to Cambridge have never had a reserved seat on a specific train. The journey planner has always (obviously) routed me onto the fast non-stop train from London to Cambridge, but I've often opted for the semi-fast (now Thameslink) to Cambridge instead, because it is often a much quieter train and much more pleasant journey.

Now if I buy such a ticket, the journey planner will still route me on the fast non-stop Great Northern train, so it won't give me a seat reservation. So I won't ever find out that there are now seat reservations on the Thameslink semi-fasts. But then I do what I've always done: go to St Pancras and get on the semi-fast Thameslink train, assuming that's fine because I don't have a seat reservation for a specific train, so "obviously" I can get on any train. But all of a sudden I'm now on a reservable train without realising it, with an advance ticket and no seat reservation, and I'm liable for who knows what penalty? But only after I've done this several times without any issues, and then one day I happen to get unlucky and meet a ticket inspector?

 

[JonathanH]

How is the average person, who hasn't read this thread, meant to know which trains are reservable and which trains are not (and hence which ones they're allowed to use on the unreserved leg of an advance ticket)?

Advance tickets have always only been valid on the trains chosen at the time of booking, but the railway has decided not to provide any information on those trains on the ticket. Consequently there has been some freedom in choosing which train to catch. Clearly if a reservation is now printed on a ticket, that train must be used over that stretch of route.

The converse is more difficult and it would seem unlikely that an RPI could specifically target people using tickets without a reservation on trains where reservations are available. The best way of removing this confusion (for the operator) would now be to make the Great Northern Trains also reservable trains.

 

[Hadders]

Advance tickets have always only been valid on the trains chosen at the time of booking, but the railway has decided not to provide any information on those trains on the ticket. Consequently there has been some freedom in choosing which train to catch. Clearly if a reservation is now printed on a ticket, that train must be used over that stretch of route.

The converse is more difficult and it would seem unlikely that an RPI could specifically target people using tickets without a reservation on trains where reservations are available. The best way of removing this confusion (for the operator) would now be to make the Great Northern Trains also reservable trains.

Or just revert to what we had before with all Thameslink branded trains being unreservable. It's not exactly clear why reservations are available on these trains given that Advance tickets aren't sold for them.

 

[Starmill]

How is the average person, who hasn't read this thread, meant to know which trains are reservable and which trains are not (and hence which ones they're allowed to use on the unreserved leg of an advance ticket)?

It's impossible or very tricky to know for sure. You can of course consult an open data feed on a website for enthusiasts and industry followers... but who is going to do that?

 

[MrJeeves]

GTR really ought to be looking to simplify fares by introducing PAYG

Is this not already done with keyGo?​

 

[Hadders]

Is this not already done with keyGo?​

Not really, as it isn’t valid on other operators or TfL services. What’s needed is a fully integrated PAYG system.

 

[MrJeeves]

Not really, as it isn’t valid on other operators or TfL services. What’s needed is a fully integrated PAYG system.

We definitely do need that.

I do find it interesting that keyGo is valid on some select GWR services, and, most surprisingly, B&H buses.

 

[Ianno87]

Or just revert to what we had before with all Thameslink branded trains being unreservable. It's not exactly clear why reservations are available on these trains given that Advance tickets aren't sold for them.

Not *currently* sold... unless (as I hypothesised upthread) there is a plan to.

 

[johncrossley]

Is there a line that has reservations but doesn't have Advance tickets?

I do find it interesting that keyGo is valid on some select GWR services, and, most surprisingly, B&H buses.

The 'Key' brand started out as a Go-Ahead initiative across most of its bus and train companies many years ago, when Southern was a separate TOC to Thameslink. So Metrobus, Brighton & Hove and Southern all had Key cards and Southern was an early adopter of pay as you go. So adding Metrobus and Brighton & Hove to KeyGo didn't seem that crazy at the time. Still industry leading after all these years.