Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[jon0844]

Technically, yes, they are an agency. But a Dft run by railway folk would surely have seen the folly in introducing a timetable without having enough drivers, for example. GTR, or the nationalised equivalent, would not have underfunded driver recruitment and training simply to maximise profits.

I want the DfT to be asked if it refused to allow GTR to defer the changes until December. If it did, the mess is of its making and clearly the DfT would have been just as bad directly running things.

 

[Tw99]

I've seen a couple of mainstream media reports on the situation so far, and they've both been very poor at communicating what the real problem seems to be (i.e. lack of trained drivers). Given that the DfT communique didn't mention that at all, but the DfT must be well aware of it, you'd think that at least one enterprising media organisation would want to dig a bit further as the public statements seem to be trying to cover up the main issue.

 

[the Rat]

I've seen a couple of mainstream media reports on the situation so far, and they've both been very poor at communicating what the real problem seems to be (i.e. lack of trained drivers). Given that the DfT communique didn't mention that at all, but the DfT must be well aware of it, you'd think that at least one enterprising media organisation would want to dig a bit further as the public statements seem to be trying to cover up the main issue.

You're right that the public statements aren't accurately explaining things, but twas ever thus that governments try to gloss over their own culpability for poor administration. And the mistakes made in this instance are particularly dumb - I mean, even a reasonably-educated 5-year-old will know that trains need drivers!!

 

[jon0844]

You're right that the public statements aren't accurately explaining things, but twas ever thus that governments try to gloss over their own culpability for poor administration. And the mistakes made in this instance are particularly dumb - I mean, even a reasonably-educated 5-year-old will know that trains need drivers!!

But some people don't understand the actual problem. I've had people saying they should just stick the drivers in a simulator because that's how pilots learn to fly, unaware of the fact that it's not about drivers unable to drive a 700.

 

[ungreat]

GTR were given dates to implement stuff...regardless of readiness.

 

[87015]

My local MP (Grant Shapps) knows full well that it's not a franchise, but he's still appearing on TV saying GTR should be stripped of the franchise. He knows it's the right thing to say, but ultimately he also knows GTR isn't likely going anywhere.

You couldn’t have deffered the whole lot, too many other operators have had to move too many trains to make way for Thameslink... You’ll also note other operators also had significant late notice change to TT structures and got ready.

 

[Kanrakuq]

Anyway, if they're saying they were all no no no we won't be ready in time stop forcing us you pesky government, why their massive publicity about the amazing changes and the utterly demented attempt to implement the full timetable in the first few days, rather than just going public saying, "This is going to be terrible, but it's not our fault?" They certainly did a good job of looking like they had no idea nothing was ready.

 

[The Box Photter]

I agree that DfT is equally culpable. They either knew this was going to happen and pushed the timetable change through anyway, which is bad, or didn't know and just assumed that GTR knew what they were doing, which is worse.

Don't forget; however, that DfT are only implementing government policy. That policy seems rooted in the dogma that the free-market is the solution to all problems. The free market should be nowhere near any aspect of national infrastructure, such as utilities, NHS, roads, waterways and railways. That's because the free market's only aim is to make as much profit as possible for as little outlay as possible. GTR's primary responsibility is to deliver value to its shareholders, which it is attempting to do by maximising profit from the management contract handed out by DfT on behalf of HM Govt. Tory dogma has driven the notion that somehow the rail industry should cover its costs through ticket revenue and that any funding from taxation is in some way bad. Yet the majority of the funding for roads in the UK comes from general taxation, plus a contribution from VED and a small amount from tolls. This is acceptable because the road infrastructure is considered a benefit to the nation as a whole.

The same principle ought to apply to the railway. The network was systematically starved of investment by successive governments of all political persuasions, who thought they knew how to run things on the cheap. We should have electrified immediately after WWII or continued with strategic pockets of steam operation through until electrification was completed in the mid 1980s. Instead we wasted millions on building steam locos that had working lives of ten years or less, followed by unreliable diesels that had similarly short lives. There has never been a unified strategic plan for the railway, just petty tinkering and piecemeal projects, which get cancelled or descaled when the next government takes power.

How much money is being wasted on HS2 just to reduce the London - Birmingham journey time by 20 mins? £90 billion, £100 billion, £150 billion? You could use that money to electrify the GWML and MML.

The railway and Thameslink in particular, has been offered to private enterprise to see whether they could make it work and the great experiment has shown that men (or women) in sharp suits are no better at running the railway than men in greasy overalls were. The only difference is that now the trains have less comfortable seats and get reliveried more frequently. Oh, and the other differenece is that somewhere along the line, the men (or women) in the sharp suits and their shareholders get to syphon off some of the money that ought to be recycled into the railway to make things better.

We should be taking the railways back into public ownership immediately and begging railway operations experts from across the world to come and show us how to run a railway properly, because we sure as hell seem to have forgotten how to do it.

 

[jon0844]

Anyway, if they're saying they were all no no no we won't be ready in time stop forcing us you pesky government, why their massive publicity about the amazing changes and the utterly demented attempt to implement the full timetable in the first few days, rather than just going public saying, "This is going to be terrible, but it's not our fault?" They certainly did a good job of looking like they had no idea nothing was ready.

Would/will they ever come out and blame the DfT though?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I agree that DfT is equally culpable. They either knew this was going to happen and pushed the timetable change through anyway, which is bad, or didn't know and just assumed that GTR knew what they were doing, which is worse.

Don't forget; however, that DfT are only implementing government policy. That policy seems rooted in the dogma that the free-market is the solution to all problems. The free market should be nowhere near any aspect of national infrastructure, such as utilities, NHS, roads, waterways and railways. That's because the free market's only aim is to make as much profit as possible for as little outlay as possible. GTR's primary responsibility is to deliver value to its shareholders, which it is attempting to do by maximising profit from the management contract handed out by DfT on behalf of HM Govt. Tory dogma has driven the notion that somehow the rail industry should cover its costs through ticket revenue and that any funding from taxation is in some way bad. Yet the majority of the funding for roads in the UK comes from general taxation, plus a contribution from VED and a small amount from tolls. This is acceptable because the road infrastructure is considered a benefit to the nation as a whole.

The same principle ought to apply to the railway. The network was systematically starved of investment by successive governments of all political persuasions, who thought they knew how to run things on the cheap. We should have electrified immediately after WWII or continued with strategic pockets of steam operation through until electrification was completed in the mid 1980s. Instead we wasted millions on building steam locos that had working lives of ten years or less, followed by unreliable diesels that had similarly short lives. There has never been a unified strategic plan for the railway, just petty tinkering and piecemeal projects, which get cancelled or descaled when the next government takes power.

How much money is being wasted on HS2 just to reduce the London - Birmingham journey time by 20 mins? £90 billion, £100 billion, £150 billion? You could use that money to electrify the GWML and MML.

The railway and Thameslink in particular, has been offered to private enterprise to see whether they could make it work and the great experiment has shown that men (or women) in sharp suits are no better at running the railway than men in greasy overalls were. The only difference is that now the trains have less comfortable seats and get reliveried more frequently. Oh, and the other differenece is that somewhere along the line, the men (or women) in the sharp suits and their shareholders get to syphon off some of the money that ought to be recycled into the railway to make things better.

We should be taking the railways back into public ownership immediately and begging railway operations experts from across the world to come and show us how to run a railway properly, because we sure as hell seem to have forgotten how to do it.

You do not need to get railway experts from across the world (not that impressed frankly from what I have seen) , you might need to get some home grown expertise in the DfT , but not much chance as it is seen as workplace of almost last resort , with a hugely diminishing pool of railway expertise , some ex SRA. I know , I worked there for a while , on this project - and once I got my finances in a decent position (i.e 2 graduates through) , and only one to go - I stuck it for a year and resigned. Absolutely no pleasure , should never have gone there. Zero regrets either. (apart from the meltdown you see now)

 

[ijmad]

TL saying on Twitter that all their Peterborough services will be departing from Kings Cross this evening. Have they finally given up?

 

[greyman42]

Most posters probably missed Andy Burnham, Mayor of Manchester, on BBC Breakfast this morning. He claimed that the Government is ignoring the disruption to services caused by the new timetable as only passengers in the north are suffering problems and that if there were problems in the south, the Government would have taken action. I have emailed him to advise him that although some parts of the south are not suffering problems, this is certainly not the case in areas served by Govia Thameslink. He also stated that Manchester commuters are paying hundreds of pounds and not getting the service they paid for, I pointed out to him that they should thinks themselves lucky, London commuters are paying thousands of pounds and not getting a service.

Andy Burnham seems to of made a fool of himself with that statement. He is completely out of touch with what is going on with GTR.

 

[GordonT]

1. Roger Ford‏ @Captain_Deltic 24h24 hours ago
   
   
   Latest on Huntingdon-Stevenage evening service. 16.41 not in timetable. 17.11 and 17.41 cancelled. Next train shown as 18.41. However there is now a bus replacement service to Hitchin. Things getting worse
   

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

How much money is being wasted on HS2 just to reduce the London - Birmingham journey time by 20 mins? £90 billion, £100 billion, £150 billion? You could use that money to electrify the GWML and MML.

Only a small extract from an otherwise excellent post, but every part of this paragraph is completely wrong.

 

[bramling]

TL saying on Twitter that all their Peterborough services will be departing from Kings Cross this evening. Have they finally given up?

Politically, if the Horsham/Peterborough service gets binned, that will probably be it for this failed service - at least in its 2tph form. People have had a taste of the uncertainty it brings, and quite simply it doesn’t meet the needs of its users who want (need) to be able to rely on the service.

Perhaps a rethink needs to use Thameslink to provide the peak-hour fast services, a time of day when capacity is scarce, and not for the key all-day semi-fast service which provides the only service for some destinations.

It’s not just the driver issue - many of the through services which are running are picking up late running which is simply unrecoverable without causing disproportionate inconvenience.

 

[MikeWh]

I guess that explains why ticket acceptance on High Speed is only permitted between Gravesend and Rainham. So once you get to Strood you are still meant to change again onto other South Eastern trains at Gravesend. Not many people will put up with this hassle.

I'm not sure what this post is trying to say. You don't need a high speed ticket to use any high speed trains while on the classic routes. From Medway you only need a high speed ticket to travel beyond Gravesend towards London St Pancras.

 

[radamfi]

I'm not sure what this post is trying to say. You don't need a high speed ticket to use any high speed trains while on the classic routes. From Medway you only need a high speed ticket to travel beyond Gravesend towards London St Pancras.

What I mean is that many people will be end up getting a high speed ticket to as they won't want the hassle of changing twice, at Strood and Gravesend, which is what they have to do if they don't want to pay extra.

 

[JonathanH]

Politically, if the Horsham/Peterborough service gets binned, that will probably be it for this failed service - at least in its 2tph form. People have had a taste of the uncertainty it brings, and quite simply it doesn’t meet the needs of its users who want (need) to be able to rely on the service.

Perhaps a rethink needs to use Thameslink to provide the peak-hour fast services, a time of day when capacity is scarce, and not for the key all-day semi-fast service which provides the only service for some destinations.

It’s not just the driver issue - many of the through services which are running are picking up late running which is simply unrecoverable without causing disproportionate inconvenience.

Where do you propose that the service south of the river from Horsham terminates or should it just be permanently cancelled?

 

[CMS]

Deleted

 

[bramling]

Where do you propose that the service south of the river from Horsham terminates or should it just be permanently cancelled?

London Bridge should be the obvious starting point, given it has successfully terminated there for many years, and we’d only be talking about off-peak.

If that’s suddenly so unviable, send through Thameslink and terminate as close as possible north of the river - even Finsbury Park and reverse via Ferme Park flyover or Bowes Park siding as a last resort.

The powers that be should have thought about all this before gambling everything on FailedPlan2020. Now the passengers have to play their own lottery - how long will I have to wait for a train to Arlesey?

 

[radamfi]

There have also been coaches parked outside Three Bridges whenever I've passed the station this week.

 

[bramling]

From observation yesterday and today, local bus operators (notably Centrebus) have had vehicles standing outside St Albans City and Luton stations all day marked 'Rail Replacement'. I wonder if the contingency plan is to bustitute along the TL line or bus customers to Hitchin/Hatfield, given that these stations also are experiencing constant service disruption recently?

Another observation would have to be the shambles platforms A and B at St Pancras are proving to be... with only a single entrance/exit to each platform, unlike all other TL core stations, it is starting to look a bit 'RER-eqsue'. Would a second TL exit would ever be feasible?

On the GN side at least, the buses seem to be on standby to take punters to the smaller stations. This would seem to be after constant disasters where people have congregated en-masse at places like Hitchin trying to get to places like Arlesey or Sandy with gaps of several hours between trains, and needless to say the station staff taking mega amounts of abuse.

I wonder if so many buses will be available next week when the schools are back?

As for St Pancras, this was something which was predicted, so it’s no surprise to see issues arising.

 

[bramling]

Would/will they ever come out and blame the DfT though?

Perhaps only if and after they no longer have a role in rail franchises?

 

[Antman]

Most posters probably missed Andy Burnham, Mayor of Manchester, on BBC Breakfast this morning. He claimed that the Government is ignoring the disruption to services caused by the new timetable as only passengers in the north are suffering problems and that if there were problems in the south, the Government would have taken action. I have emailed him to advise him that although some parts of the south are not suffering problems, this is certainly not the case in areas served by Govia Thameslink. He also stated that Manchester commuters are paying hundreds of pounds and not getting the service they paid for, I pointed out to him that they should thinks themselves lucky, London commuters are paying thousands of pounds and not getting a service.

He's not the only one, I heard somebody else say on TV that the problems on Northern wouldn't be tolerated down south. Are things there really worse than the Thameslink saga?

 

[mmh]

Where do you propose that the service south of the river from Horsham terminates or should it just be permanently cancelled?

Um, London Bridge?

 

[Skimble19]

Skip stopping is apparently going to be stopped. Not sure how that's going impact the line, but this is one thing many people have demanded and has now been agreed.

It's not going to be completely stopped, just done better (well, that's the plan!). The idea is that if it's needed it'll be done before a train leaves a terminus, rather than once it's already full of people travelling to those stations no longer to be served. Obviously there may be occasions when it needs to be done on route but it's to be avoided unless necessary.

For those wondering about this weekend, GN will be on a revised timetable with all Outer services running into Kings Cross again.

There will also be a revised timetable in place for next week starting Monday, details to be released over the weekend.

 

[JonathanH]

London Bridge should be the obvious starting point, given it has successfully terminated there for many years, and we’d only be talking about off-peak.

If that’s suddenly so unviable, send through Thameslink and terminate as close as possible north of the river - even Finsbury Park and reverse via Ferme Park flyover or Bowes Park siding as a last resort.

The powers that be should have thought about all this before gambling everything on FailedPlan2020. Now the passengers have to play their own lottery - how long will I have to wait for a train to Arlesey?

Unfortunately, the timings result in a 27 minute turnaround at London Bridge (as evidenced by what is in RTT for tomorrow until it all gets cancelled in the morning). Whether a single platform is available all day just for the Horsham service, I don't know.

 

[bramling]

Unfortunately, the timings result in a 27 minute turnaround at London Bridge (as evidenced by what is in RTT for tomorrow until it all gets cancelled in the morning). Whether a single platform is available all day just for the Horsham service, I don't know.

I wouldn’t expect this would be something easily able to be implemented except as part of a timetable change, although the way things are at present something has to be done.

I wonder if the Ely-KX hourly service is another one which might better fit with TL. Again not ideal by any means, but if we *have* to send trains to GN then it does offer some benefits - Cambridge gets a non-stop service to Thameslink destinations, and removes a load of stations who are only served by Thameslink. The second Cambridge/Brighton service would then become Cambridge/KX. Potential issues could be power supply north of Cambridge, and platform lengths at some GN stations (although if operated by 387s then SDO could be used where necessary). This is just food for thought - I haven’t looked in great detail to see how well it would work.

 

[MAV39]

I agree that DfT is equally culpable. They either knew this was going to happen and pushed the timetable change through anyway, which is bad, or didn't know and just assumed that GTR knew what they were doing, which is worse.

Don't forget; however, that DfT are only implementing government policy. That policy seems rooted in the dogma that the free-market is the solution to all problems. The free market should be nowhere near any aspect of national infrastructure, such as utilities, NHS, roads, waterways and railways. That's because the free market's only aim is to make as much profit as possible for as little outlay as possible. GTR's primary responsibility is to deliver value to its shareholders, which it is attempting to do by maximising profit from the management contract handed out by DfT on behalf of HM Govt. Tory dogma has driven the notion that somehow the rail industry should cover its costs through ticket revenue and that any funding from taxation is in some way bad. Yet the majority of the funding for roads in the UK comes from general taxation, plus a contribution from VED and a small amount from tolls. This is acceptable because the road infrastructure is considered a benefit to the nation as a whole. ...

You appear to have forgotten the contribution to general taxation made by Hydrocarbon Oil Duty (Fuel Tax) plus the VAT on top.

Both Wikipedia and the RAC Foundation quote approximaely £32-36 billion was raised from motoring taxation in 2009, and that combined expenditure on roads by local and central government (also in 2009) was £10 billion.

 

[mmh]

Another observation would have to be the shambles platforms A and B at St Pancras are proving to be... with only a single entrance/exit to each platform, unlike all other TL core stations, it is starting to look a bit 'RER-eqsue'. Would a second TL exit would ever be feasible?

I've only changed at Blackfriars so far, thinking that would be the easiest place - a new build station after all. It was awful. None of the core stations are very suitable as interchange stations, with narrow platforms and entrances only at platform ends. 28 tph without any sort of segregation of arriving and departing passengers? A recipe for disaster. There's a reason the London Underground has convoluted one-way systems where it can. And they don't generally have passengers waiting for a particular train.

Blackfriars is interesting when it comes to Oyster as well. You can freely change platforms at the south end, at the north end you have to go through the barriers, and if TFL's list of allowed "out of station" interchanges is correct, I wonder if people can be charged different fares depending on which end of the platform they use.

EDIT: Strikethrough incorrect comment about no OSI at Blackfriars, there is between platforms 1 and 2-4 with a 10 minute time limit