Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[otomous]

I was on a London - Cambridge fast on Thursday that was driven by one driver to Hitchin (where it wasn't timetabled to stop) and then another to Cambridge, and which had at least two drivers travelling as passengers.

I know nothing about operating a railway, so this is an ill informed rough guess. But I'm going to speculate that there's some kind of poor management / planning gone on there and that an ideal world would have put one of them in each of several trains. If whoever organised had had to also organise hotels for them heaven knows what would have happened.

Things can be more complicated than they appear. One train may take multiple drivers to a location with many trains waiting for them. Or they may be on their way to a course, or to start route learning, or just be on the way home. Drivers travel on trains for a variety of reasons.

 

[otomous]

At the end of the day the problem is quite simply there aren’t enough drivers. Whether they didn’t or couldn’t resource enough is a question which will come out in the wash no doubt, but it’s difficult to see how it couple be the latter given how many years they had to plan for this. All this talk about mismatches is to me a smokescreen, if they haven’t got drivers trained to run a timetable then they haven’t got enough - end of. I don’t think this is a driver flexibility issue - they are more than entitled to come in and do what they are contracted to do, in fact it’s quite likely most are fed up with the uncertainty, messing around and late finishes as much as everyone else.

There is a but, however. Once again my train in was full of a particularly rowdy bunch of drivers travelling pass. It certainly does not impress passengers to be travelling on a train with people behaving worse than some schoolchildren do, and it does not sound good at all to hear things like “I can’t wait to make the phone call later when I refuse to pick up” or “I got out of a whole first half of work because the train I was going pass on was packed and I told them it was too full to board”. This really isn’t impressive at all, and whilst one sympathises with the complete break-down of GTR’s operation, at the end of the day this sort of behaviour really lets the grade down IMO. At the very least this sort of talk should be confined to the messroom, and it’s not on to treat travelling pass on a busy train as some kind of messroom. Apart from anything else, were someone to secretly film on a mobile phone and it went to management, this could quite easily be seen as bringing the company into disrepute, assuming GTR could afford to let anyone go of course!

I do get very frustrated by such drivers, especially in public. Not in their defence but just as an observation, there’s always a few slackers in every work place. And we all always know who they are, sadly. Most are not like this.

 

[Fred26]

Call me thick, but since when has "revised timetable" = an emergency timetable. The two are completely seperate.

To all intents and purposes the current weekend timetable is an emergency timetable.

Train Planning/Control did well this weekend - planned engineering work, which must surely have been known about months ago, yet nothing in any system to show which services were cancelled, where buses were running, or the times they were running. In fact none of this information appeared in systems until first thing this morning when it became apparent to staff that the works had been completely forgotten about as services were cancelled at very short notice and replacement buses were not organised.
I'm struggling to remember the last time this happened.

Something new for me this week, now that GN control has moved from Kings Cross to Three Bridges, it is nigh on impossible to get hold of anyone, even for a simple thing like changing CIS. I've spent an average of 2-3 minutes waiting for someone to answer the phone. I could understand it, but it's not like there's one man and his dog at Three Bridges. There are staff there supposedly dealing with each aspect of each region - ie not any different to how things were at Kings Cross. Why it's such a struggle just to get someone to answer the phone I don't know.
Big things like the timetable issues are appalling, but I have no faith that that will be sorted when little things, like answering the phone is such an ordeal.

 

[Steve Harris]

To all intents and purposes the current weekend timetable is an emergency timetable.

Train Planning/Control did well this weekend - planned engineering work, which must surely have been known about months ago, yet nothing in any system to show which services were cancelled, where buses were running, or the times they were running. In fact none of this information appeared in systems until first thing this morning when it became apparent to staff that the works had been completely forgotten about as services were cancelled at very short notice and replacement buses were not organised.
I'm struggling to remember the last time this happened.

Something new for me this week, now that GN control has moved from Kings Cross to Three Bridges, it is nigh on impossible to get hold of anyone, even for a simple thing like changing CIS. I've spent an average of 2-3 minutes waiting for someone to answer the phone. I could understand it, but it's not like there's one man and his dog at Three Bridges. There are staff there supposedly dealing with each aspect of each region - ie not any different to how things were at Kings Cross. Why it's such a struggle just to get someone to answer the phone I don't know.
Big things like the timetable issues are appalling, but I have no faith that that will be sorted when little things, like answering the phone is such an ordeal.

Well things have certainly changed since i was on the railways in BR days!

Regards the phone not getting answered, they probably dont because it's yet another problem which has to be sorted.

 

[Surreytraveller]

And I imagine with all that is going on, everyone is trying to get through on the phone. They can only answer one call at a time

 

[Surreytraveller]

Has anyone noticed that GTRs “we must skip stop if something is late” policy doesn’t save much time.

I have seen a few such as the 0602 wgc - London leave 28 Mins late and arrive in London kx 28 Mins late.

This morning they decided to run the 0657 Cambridge - London non stop from Hitchin - Finsbury Park. It was 33 late at Hitchin. Arrived 28 late at Finsbury Park. Was it worth it for 5 minutes saving considering many stations it skipped only get an hourly service?

What are GTR trying to achieve?

Although a train running fast may not make up any time, running it fast prevents it losing more time.

 

[Failed Unit]

Although a train running fast may not make up any time, running it fast prevents it losing more time.

Not always. But must admit I don’t understand your logic here. If it takes 30 minutes to do 4 stops. Why is it better to run nonstop in 30 minutes then actually make the stops and still take 30 minutes.

Although this is GTR - they have no logic. They are just inept.

 

[Fred26]

Well things have certainly changed since i was on the railways in BR days!

Regards the phone not getting answered, they probably dont because it's yet another problem which has to be sorted.

Exactly.

And I imagine with all that is going on, everyone is trying to get through on the phone. They can only answer one call at a time

Yes, but this problem didn't exist with control at Kings Cross.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Not always. But must admit I don’t understand your logic here. If it takes 30 minutes to do 4 stops. Why is it better to run nonstop in 30 minutes then actually make the stops and still take 30 minutes.

Although this is GTR - they have no logic. They are just inept.

Several reasons - running it fast on fast lines to prevent it getting stuck behind a stopper; running it fast prevents it holding up following trains; running it fast prevents it being delayed by overcrowding.

 

[adrock1976]

My local MP has apparently given Grayling a vote of confidence and is now after Network Rail (as well as wanting Govia stripped of the <his words> franchise) by continuing to Tweet and post on Facebook about Mark Carne getting the CBE.

I am beginning to wonder if allowing Network Rail to be pushed under the bus will be a good way for the Government to use this to push for privatising Network Rail, or indeed going ahead with the idea of allowing future private operators more control of infrastructure.

In all of this, the DfT is still being 'protected' and seen as so desperately trying to help suffering passengers, without admitting to any part in the whole affair.

Being as Grayling has been given the vote of confidence and by using a football analogy here, Grayling should know exactly what happens when a chairperson/owner of a struggling football team gives their manager a vote of confidence and loses the next match. I.e. they are soon gone afterwards.

 

[Failed Unit]

Several reasons - running it fast on fast lines to prevent it getting stuck behind a stopper; running it fast prevents it holding up following trains; running it fast prevents it being delayed by overcrowding.

If they didn’t cancel so many trains in the first place overcrowding wouldn’t be an issue. But are they really running trains on the fast line? Hitchin - Finsbury Park should be possible non-stop in 20 minutes. Nothing else stops on the fast lines so it should gain time as nothing will obstruct its routes. I suspect it is still on the slow but just not stopping. Terrible customer service and not actually gaining anything.

 

[jon0844]

Mix up this evening with a Moorgate train running that wasn't scheduled. Got put into the system after the train had departed, and is running as a Thameslink service to Moorgate! Third train today that has run without anyone having a clue of its existence.

 

[Robsignals]

I do get very frustrated by such drivers, especially in public. Not in their defence but just as an observation, there’s always a few slackers in every work place. And we all always know who they are, sadly. Most are not like this.

I'm sure many drives are doing their best but when ASLEF made a new productivity agreement with GTR it was only narrowly accepted by members at the third attempt, this does suggest rather a lot of drivers are less than enthusiastic and some may be taking every opportunity to maximise disruption. I wonder how many drivers who've completed the specified number of Route Learning trips are requesting more before feeling ready for Assessment or are failing it.

 

[jon0844]

I've heard whispers that when new rosters are worked out in July there's a strong possibility many drivers will reject it.

 

[OwenB]

Huge gaps from Stevenage into King's Cross again. They really struggle with Monday early mornings. Thankfully the 6.07 HAT-KGX is actually running today, to my complete amazement (5.55, 6.25, 6.37 all cancelled). Not a good start to the week.

 

[Failed Unit]

Must admit this lack of information and amendments to the journey planner on the day are seriously annoying now we are in week 6.

Check last night 0802 WGC - London running. Pretty much a train ever 30 mins into Kx. 0732, 0802 and 0832.

Check again an the 0802 is removed on the often unadvertised 0822 is running. Good for the people from the Cambridgeshire villiages. But did they really no know about either of these changes until this morning? (Silly question this is GTR - they probably don’t actually plan until the driver books on)

 

[OwenB]

Must admit this lack of information and amendments to the journey planner on the day are seriously annoying now we are in week 6.

Check last night 0802 WGC - London running. Pretty much a train ever 30 mins into Kx. 0732, 0802 and 0832.

Check again an the 0802 is removed on the often unadvertised 0822 is running. Good for the people from the Cambridgeshire villiages. But did they really no know about either of these changes until this morning? (Silly question this is GTR - they probably don’t actually plan until the driver books on)

I woke up at around 3.45 and checked the trains (yes, it's that bad that my first thought is 'trains') and the 5.55, 6.25 and 6.37 HAT-KGX were all showing as 'on time'. This is doing my head in.

 

[frediculous]

0813, 0823 and the 0843 ("this will be cancelled as there's no driver" says the announcer) from Bromley South all cancelled this morning. Thameslink service to Sevenoaks currently on platform "Bus"!

 

[jon0844]

Must admit this lack of information and amendments to the journey planner on the day are seriously annoying now we are in week 6.

Check last night 0802 WGC - London running. Pretty much a train ever 30 mins into Kx. 0732, 0802 and 0832.

Check again an the 0802 is removed on the often unadvertised 0822 is running. Good for the people from the Cambridgeshire villiages. But did they really no know about either of these changes until this morning? (Silly question this is GTR - they probably don’t actually plan until the driver books on)

The 0802 was cancelled when the amended timetable went out overnight. Not enough 700s in the yard at WGC (just two). The 0532 ran without being advertised, so it might have made sense to hold that back as I doubt many people got on that one given nobody would have known it was there. Once the 0602 ran that was it for 700s until trains arrived from King's Cross to return (so no 0632 ran either).

The 0624 Moorgate also disappeared and did not run.

 

[OwenB]

The 0532 ran without being advertised

Great banter by the lads.

 

[otomous]

I'm sure many drives are doing their best but when ASLEF made a new productivity agreement with GTR it was only narrowly accepted by members at the third attempt, this does suggest rather a lot of drivers are less than enthusiastic and some may be taking every opportunity to maximise disruption. I wonder how many drivers who've completed the specified number of Route Learning trips are requesting more before feeling ready for Assessment or are failing it.

Drivers don’t fail route assessments. If they did questions would be asked about their abilities.

Rest assured it can be almost impossible to go through the steps required to sign a route due to shortages of personnel at every turn. It’s a chronic problem which I have experienced at every attempt to learn routes over the last decade - even when things are on an even keel - I’ve been ready to do the assessment many times and waited weeks for an assessor, only then to be told I have to do the learning again. Or be used for driving turns intermittently so I can’t get going with the learning properly.

You may not have noticed this, but the DFT, Network Rail, the ORR and the TOCs are quite capable of screwing up without any help from us.

 

[otomous]

I've heard whispers that when new rosters are worked out in July there's a strong possibility many drivers will reject it.

Drivers don’t reject rosters. Local Depot representatives reject rosters, usually because they break local agreements, are nigh on impossible to make work, or ignore rules on fatigue etc.

 

[ComUtoR]

I wonder how many drivers who've completed the specified number of Route Learning trips are requesting more before feeling ready for Assessment or are failing it.

The 'specified number of route learning trips' are a MINIMAL requirement and not a maximum. It is also a basic requirement and compliments other forms of route learning. You may also be required to attend a specific briefing, watch a specific video, etc.

With GTR there is a problem where route learners are being refused access to cabs or with various service cancellations they simply cannot get trips in with any degree of efficiency.

 

[jon0844]

Drivers don’t reject rosters. Local Depot representatives reject rosters, usually because they break local agreements, are nigh on impossible to make work, or ignore rules on fatigue etc.

Same thing at the end of the day isn't it? If enough drivers aren't happy, they'll be saying so.

 

[otomous]

Same thing at the end of the day isn't it? If enough drivers aren't happy, they'll be saying so.

No, not really. And you really overestimate the power of drivers! My Depot recently had a roster change which we’re not happy but we still have to work it, and are doing so.

 

[bramling]

The 0802 was cancelled when the amended timetable went out overnight. Not enough 700s in the yard at WGC (just two). The 0532 ran without being advertised, so it might have made sense to hold that back as I doubt many people got on that one given nobody would have known it was there. Once the 0602 ran that was it for 700s until trains arrived from King's Cross to return (so no 0632 ran either).

The 0624 Moorgate also disappeared and did not run.

Shaping up to be another dismal day. Every single northbound service from the core so far appears to have been either cancelled or minimum 10 late. How long does this shambles have to last before its sponsors come to realise they have backed a dead horse?

 

[Failed Unit]

Shaping up to be another dismal day. Every single northbound service from the core so far appears to have been either cancelled or minimum 10 late. How long does this shambles have to last before its sponsors come to realise they have backed a dead horse?

Agreed 6 weeks in (or 9 weeks after GTR allegedly got the timetable) the Kings Cross to Cambridge service is having one of its worse days.

You know the one that the route hasn’t changed - it is just GTR never trained enough drivers on the 700s.

I wish they would bring the 365s back onto these services. A 4 coach train is better than no train. Travelled back Saturday evening after a 3 hour gap in service. The pair of 387s operating the service were cosy.

 

[bramling]

Agreed 6 weeks in (or 9 weeks after GTR allegedly got the timetable) the Kings Cross to Cambridge service is having one of its worse days.

You know the one that the route hasn’t changed - it is just GTR never trained enough drivers on the 700s.

I wish they would bring the 365s back onto these services. A 4 coach train is better than no train. Travelled back Saturday evening after a 3 hour gap in service. The pair of 387s operating the service were cosy.

They should just run 2x365 and miss the three village stations. If done right they could still manage an hourly service which is what they had before.

I suspect an issue with getting the stored 365s back is depot space, especially with Hornsey now being full of undesiros going nowhere.

I suppose no one will be brave enough to make the decision - Thameslink is a disaster, we shouldn’t have tried to do what we did, now let’s bite the bullet and scale it back to something more workable. The 365s are a neat solution as they avoid the traction knowledge issue now, and provide part of the 50/50 service which will surely have to happen in the future. In that sense it’s a snag that 10 are now at the other end of the country, albeit only temporarily.

On a different note, we’ll see if the mythical 2119 KX to Peterborough runs this week!

 

[Robsignals]

Drivers don’t fail route assessments. If they did questions would be asked about their abilities.

Rest assured it can be almost impossible to go through the steps required to sign a route due to shortages of personnel at every turn. It’s a chronic problem which I have experienced at every attempt to learn routes over the last decade - even when things are on an even keel - I’ve been ready to do the assessment many times and waited weeks for an assessor, only then to be told I have to do the learning again. Or be used for driving turns intermittently so I can’t get going with the learning properly.

You may not have noticed this, but the DFT, Network Rail, the ORR and the TOCs are quite capable of screwing up without any help from us.

The 'specified number of route learning trips' are a MINIMAL requirement and not a maximum. It is also a basic requirement and compliments other forms of route learning. You may also be required to attend a specific briefing, watch a specific video, etc.

With GTR there is a problem where route learners are being refused access to cabs or with various service cancellations they simply cannot get trips in with any degree of efficiency.

​

Is it correct that drivers aren't route assessed until they say they're ready? There has to be an underlying trust that drivers want to qualify as soon as possible and I don't doubt that most do want to but if some want to cause disruption requesting more training would be one way.

 

[mrmatt]

I suppose no one will be brave enough to make the decision - Thameslink is a disaster, we shouldn’t have tried to do what we did, now let’s bite the bullet and scale it back to something more workable

Can you really see anyone publicly acknowledging that £7bn was spent and it won't be used to its full potential? I feel that's the big elephant in the room now - they can't be seen to have wasted all that money regardless as to whether they scale back now then bring back once they're properly resourced.