Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[ComUtoR]

Every train into the core now has a couple of minutes pathing time immediately before the core to improve RT presentation. What that means is that a train running RT already will wait just outside St P (southbound) or Blackfriars (northbound) for its correct slot.

The consequences of which are £$!£$" stupid.

 

[Failed Unit]

The consequences of which are £$!£$" stupid.

It will be interesting once the full timetable is in place how they regulate this.

If you look at the service now the Peterborough - Horsham service frequently gets in the way of the Kings Cross - Cambridge slow. Once they are going into the core of the Horsham is late and the Cambridge is on time will they swap them at Finsbury Park to make use of the padding or just keep them in the same order.

Late for this example means under 5 mins. Typical delay we get when minor stuff happens.

Going to a hard call for the signaller. Let the 5 minute late one off great northern in and delay the one off Bedford? Or let Bedford in and increase the GN delay.

A no win situation.

 

[sefton]

Just because they run between various cities doesn't make them InterCity for example you had the Class 166s/165s run Reading to London both cities in their own right as stopping services that didn't make them InterCity, it did however made them Outer Suburban services simply because of the type of traction used.

So you define Peterborough, Cambridge, and Brighton as suburbs of London despite it being an hour or two journey between cities due to the type of trains used.

Perhaps that is the underlying problem that led to the shockingly bad design of the 700s. Perhaps if the reality of the use had been considered, something fit for purpose would have resulted.

 

[Aictos]

So you define Peterborough, Cambridge, and Brighton as suburbs of London despite it being an hour or two journey between cities due to the type of trains used.

Perhaps that is the underlying problem that led to the shockingly bad design of the 700s. Perhaps if the reality of the use had been considered, something fit for purpose would have resulted.

I never said they were suburbs of London, I merely said they were Outer Suburban services which they have been for years.

Besides if they were InterCity services wouldn't the likes of LNER and Virgin Trains be operating them not to mention they cannot be classed as IC services because the 317s, 365s etc have never had a IC interior so they can't be classed as IC services.

 

[87015]

It will be interesting once the full timetable is in place how they regulate this.
.

TOC mouthpiece Modern Railways says that trains more than 120 seconds late won’t be permitted to enter the core is the “plan”.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

TOC mouthpiece Modern Railways says that trains more than 120 seconds late won’t be permitted to enter the core is the “plan”.

what will the trains do then? sprout wings?

 

[CMS]

Deleted

 

[bramling]

TOC mouthpiece Modern Railways says that trains more than 120 seconds late won’t be permitted to enter the core is the “plan”.

Does this forum have a joke section?!

I suppose they think the class 9 reporting numbers will magically ensure everything arrives right time...

 

[sprunt]

Besides if they were InterCity services wouldn't the likes of LNER and Virgin Trains be operating them not to mention they cannot be classed as IC services because the 317s, 365s etc have never had a IC interior so they can't be classed as IC services.

Nobody has suggested they are InterCity. They are, factually, inter city.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The eventual 2tph semi-fast Luton-Rainham is a joke.

This service is semi slow at best

 

[Aictos]

Nobody has suggested they are InterCity. They are, factually, inter city.

 

[sefton]

I never said they were suburbs of London, I merely said they were Outer Suburban services which they have been for years.

So what does a suburban service serve if it is not the suburbs!

 

[Spartacus]

TOC mouthpiece Modern Railways says that trains more than 120 seconds late won’t be permitted to enter the core is the “plan”.

I can imagine it now, 2 minute train diverted off, which due to the extra time it'll take will delay the RT behind it by 2 minutes, and so on, and so on, and so on........

 

[Ianno87]

The consequences of which are £$!£$" stupid.

Best tell that to numerous other cross-city high frequency railways around the globe where 'buffer' us near universally built in immediately approaching the core section. Global good practice, is what it is.

 

[Aictos]

So what does a suburban service serve if it is not the suburbs!

You seem to be assuming that there is no differences between a Inner Suburban service and a Outer Surburban service which there are and I will point out the differences using various examples so you can understand as it seems you with others can't tell the difference between a IC service and the two types of Suburban services!

A Inner Suburban service has a Metro layout and has a frequent stopping pattern often with stops quite close together as a example Waterloo to Weybridge or Moorgate to Stevenage via Hertford North, trains also don't have toilets.

A example of these trains are Class 313s, Class 455s etc...

A Outer Suburban service has a less intensive layout then the Metro layout and stops at less stops then the Inner Suburban service but more stops then the InterCity service often with a number of miles between stops as a example, Waterloo to Basingstoke or Kings Cross to Peterborough, trains DO have toilets.

A example of these trains are Class 365s, Class 450s etc...

Now a InterCity service has a IC layout and calls at far less stops then the Outer Suburban service often with 70 or so miles between stops for example London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly or London Paddington to Cardiff Central with more onboard facilities then the other two above such as a buffet/trolley service, onboard entertainment ie Beam and more comfortable seating.

A example of these trains are Class 390s, HSTs and Class 800s etc...

Also BR's view of the differences affecting the ECML are very much clear cut when they electrified the local services the official view was that the Class 313s operating Moorgate then all stations to either Welwyn Garden City or Hertford North was the inner suburban service with a ten minute frequency on the Moorgate to Wood Green section.

The Class 312s operating Kings Cross to Royston calling Finsbury Park, Potters Bar then all stations on a half hourly basis was the outer suburban service and this view was extended when Network South East operated their services to Huntingdon before extending them to Peterborough.

Also Inner Suburban services on the Midland Mainline serve London to St Albans/Luton with the Outer Suburban services serving London then St Albans/Luton then all stops to Bedford so now the lesson is finished maybe we can continue discussing the Thameslink timetable rather then going off topic?

 

[bramling]

Best tell that to numerous other cross-city high frequency railways around the globe where 'buffer' us near universally built in immediately approaching the core section. Global good practice, is what it is.

I wonder if implementing the new service without thinking to train the drivers beforehand was also global good practice.

I see there was another pathetic attempt at service recovery this morning. 9S00, the first northbound Brighton-Cambridge service, was delayed on the Brighton line, and was then amended to run non-stop from Finsbury Park to Cambridge - another ThamesLink FreshAir/ Express. The only snag was it evidently got stuck behind the on-time 2C00 King's Cross-Cambridge service when on the Cambridge branch, so despite missing five stops it actually managed to go from 21 late leaving Finsbury to 26 late arriving at Cambridge! 9S13, the return service, was then very badly delayed in consequence. Apart from showing GTR's control to be ineffective, at best, it's also a good foretaste of what will happen once the stopping service starts running through the core.

They *really* need to look at finding a way to considerably lengthen the turnround times at each end. This won't of course stop the delays from happening, but at least it will reduce the likelihood of recovery measures being necessary and delays then spreading to the following service. The GN side simply can't absorb delays from elsewhere - they simply multiply, and will do so more as further services are added (the second Cambridge/Brighton) or go through the core (the stopping services).

 

[Aictos]

I wonder if implementing the new service without thinking to train the drivers beforehand was also global good practice.

Now this is something I do agree with as the training ought to have been finished weeks if not months before they implemented the new service especially as both Southern and First Capital Connect both raised concerns that the training wouldn't be finished in time but as we know, both GTR, DfT and Network Rail all said there wasn't any issues.

 

[yorkie]

So you define Peterborough, Cambridge, and Brighton as suburbs of London despite it being an hour or two journey between cities due to the type of trains used.

You misunderstand. London to Peterborough/Cambridge/Brighton services absolutely are "outer suburban" services. I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word "suburban":

A suburb is a mixed-use or residential area, existing either as part of a city or urban area or as a separate residential community within commuting distance of a city.[1]

(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suburb#cite_note-1 Reference: [1] Hemakumara, GPTS, & Rainis, Ruslan. (2015))

So, what is London Kings Cross to Kings Lynn. An Intercity or Outer Suburban service ? (In your view).

It uses "outer suburban" rolling stock. At peak times, calling at places like Letchworth, it is clearly an "outer suburban" service throughout. Yes it has an off peak calling pattern that is not dissimilar to an IC train as far as Cambridge, but that doesn't make this an IC service. Beyond Cambridge the service is absolutely "outer suburban" in nature.

Can we please get back on topic, which is the Thameslink timetable. Thanks.

 

[Failed Unit]

TOC mouthpiece Modern Railways says that trains more than 120 seconds late won’t be permitted to enter the core is the “plan”.

Assume you mean in its time slot. I guess that makes sense. Keeps the other branch moving. Be interesting if services get swapped at Finsbury Park so a later running Cambridge is held to let an on-time Peterborough stay on time.

Really feel sorry for the signalling teams getting “class 9” blindness. Understand this is already happening Sarf of the river.

 

[bramling]

Assume you mean in its time slot. I guess that makes sense. Keeps the other branch moving. Be interesting if services get swapped at Finsbury Park so a later running Cambridge is held to let an on-time Peterborough stay on time.

Really feel sorry for the signalling teams getting “class 9” blindness. Understand this is already happening Sarf of the river.

If the quote is true, it shows Thameslink management are even more delusional than I previously thought. There’s simply no way they’re going to get their trains arriving at the core with that sort of precision. Not in a million years.

The class 9 headcodes are already proving pointless. Just have a watch on Open Train Times and it won’t be long before one sees something else get priority over a late Thameslink service at somewhere like Hitchin or Woolmer Green. Another Thameslink Programme fantasy, just like all the others!

 

[Aictos]

Thank you @yorkie for stepping in above!

As to headcodes, I understand why they chose Class 9 but as Class 1 and Class 2 worked for years before why change what didn't need changing?

Be interesting if services get swapped at Finsbury Park so a later running Cambridge is held to let an on-time Peterborough stay on time.

Absolutely and this is what ought to happen, what should not happen is for the delayed service to get priority over other services that are on time.

 

[bramling]

Absolutely and this is what ought to happen, what should not happen is for the delayed service to get priority over other services that are on time.

I can’t see that happening. There simply isn’t the track space to be playing trains at somewhere like Finsbury. We’re already seeing what happens with driver reliefs there, and as numerous recent examples have shown the comms between “control” and the signallers is proving weak.

It’s not normally feasible to reform service into a later path unless there’s a driver relief occurring and the right driver can be put on the reformed service. Even then there’s the added complication that the destination may change from something like Brighton to Horsham. That would certainly catch people out. Hmm, sounds customer unfriendly, I can see that appealing to GTR actually!

London Underground do reforms as above, always by crew relief, however they have the advantage that their stopping patterns are generally the same. The passenger wouldn’t know that their train has gone from being train 101 running 15 late to train 105 running on time at somewhere like Golders Green or Seven Sisters. It’s a wonderful way to get a whole load of trains back on time quickly and in one hit if done well. But it relies on mid-journey crew reliefs, identical service patterns, and ideally having a manager immediately on site to supervise. None of this applies to Thameslink, and with some of their poor control which we are seeing at the moment, frankly I don’t believe their setup would be up to doing it without things going wrong. And when it goes wrong it really does go wrong!

Meanwhile, as I write this, just caught in blocking back through Hitchin down platform - due to a late-running Thameslink ex Brighton. 8 minutes of late running picked up in a stroke...

 

[Aictos]

I can’t see that happening. There simply isn’t the track space to be playing trains at somewhere like Finsbury. We’re already seeing what happens with driver reliefs there, and as numerous recent examples have shown the comma between “control” and the signallers is proving weak.

It’s not normally feasible to reform service into a later path unless there’s a driver relief occurring and the right driver can be put on the reformed service. Even then there’s the added complication that the destination may change from something like Brighton to Horsham. That would certainly catch people out. Hmm, sounds customer unfriendly, I can see that appealing to GTR actually!

London Underground do reforms as above, always by crew relief, however they have the advantage that their stopping patterns are generally the same. It’s a wonderful way to get a whole load of trains back on time quickly and in one hit if done well. But it relies on mid-journey crew reliefs, and ideally having a manager immediately on site to supervise. None of this applies to Thameslink, and with some of their poor control which we are seeing at the moment, frankly I don’t believe their setup would be up to doing it without things going wrong.

The issue that GTR has is the fact that they don't have a co-ordinator at Finsbury Park who makes these decisions for example under First Capital Connect they actually introduced a co-ordinator role who's priority was to act as a liaison between the various TOCs there and FCC's own traincrew so in times of disruption they or not as the case might be they were the on site rep of the company with some freedom to make the decisions.

 

[jon0844]

The issue that GTR has is the fact that they don't have a co-ordinator at Finsbury Park who makes these decisions for example under First Capital Connect they actually introduced a co-ordinator role who's priority was to act as a liaison between the various TOCs there and FCC's own traincrew so in times of disruption they or not as the case might be they were the on site rep of the company with some freedom to make the decisions.

Apparently diagrams now have drivers, who sign on at King's Cross first, scheduled to travel pass on the last/latest possible train to Finsbury Park (hence the risk of becoming stuck behind the train you're taking over) rather that one service before (which would mean a wait, and therefore cost the company money).

Some drivers will use the tube to reduce the risk. Some won't. They're not required to use the tube and indeed have had to get TfL to rather reluctantly let them travel free if they do so.

I hope come December the new rosters and diagrams will solve this or the fun and games may continue.

Why can't King's Cross drivers starting from Finsbury Park sign on at FPK instead?

 

[CMS]

Deleted

 

[bramling]

Apparently diagrams now have drivers, who sign on at King's Cross first, scheduled to travel pass on the last/latest possible train to Finsbury Park (hence the risk of becoming stuck behind the train you're taking over) rather that one service before (which would mean a wait, and therefore cost the company money).

Some drivers will use the tube to reduce the risk. Some won't. They're not required to use the tube and indeed have had to get TfL to rather reluctantly let them travel free if they do so.

I hope come December the new rosters and diagrams will solve this or the fun and games may continue.

Why can't King's Cross drivers starting from Finsbury Park sign on at FPK instead?

It’s utter lunacy to have reliefs at Finsbury Park, whether the drivers book on there or elsewhere. The risk when travelling by Underground is of course that the driver can’t communicate, so any kind of delay and everyone is in the dark.

There was another fiasco this evening with 9S60, which was about 15 late through the core. At Hitchin they decided to run it past both a Horsham-Peterborough and a Kings Cross-Letchworth, but first had to wait for a Kings Cross-Cambridge to clear Hitchin down platform - this blocking both down lines for a while.

Evidently 9S60 was then run fast from Hitchin to Cambridge. Unlike when they tried it this morning, this time they managed to get it to overtake the KX-Cambridge stopping service using the old down line at Hitchin, but putting 8 minutes on that service in the process. Meanwhile the Peterborough and Letchworth services were blocking back on the down slow waiting to get through Hitchin. It looks like extra stops were then put on a KX-Ely service, so that was delayed too.

So one Thameslink service 15 late off the Southern region, and at least *four* other on-time services delayed in consequence by about 8 minutes each. A load of inconvenienced punters trying to get home dumped at Hitchin, and station staff getting loads of stick over it. Anyone unlucky enough to be on 9S60 heading from London to Baldock, Royston or Cambridge would have been delayed by a cool half an hour thanks to all this - 15 minutes standing on a core platform, and 15 minutes standing on a windswept cold platform at Hitchin.

How much longer can this shambles continue?

 

[WeGoAgain]

...rather that one service before (which would mean a wait, and therefore cost the company money).

Not sure it's as simple as that. Wait time anywhere will impact the Driver diagram thus daily/weekly hours accrued.

Why can't King's Cross drivers starting from Finsbury Park sign on at FPK instead?

There are no booking on facilities at Finsbury Park.

 

[WeGoAgain]

It’s utter lunacy to have reliefs at Finsbury Park...

Why do you think this?

 

[bramling]

Why do you think this?

For a start there’s no depot there - so the moment something goes wrong there’s the problem that crews are all over the place, and remote from anyone directly supervising the reliefs. There’s scope for crews to be delayed on route to the pickup point, and no spares readily available should things go wrong.

Even if there was a depot there it would still be problematic, as the moment a train finds itself with no relief it’s bound to be blocking something. Even off-peak the station has 10x GN, 5x TL and 5x EC passing through each way - plus open access, ECS and freight. Combined with a track layout that isn’t wonderfully forgiving, it’s asking for trouble - which is exactly what’s been happening. From many of the platforms there’s also no ready place to take a train out of service to if there’s no driver to take it forward. Even from platform 7 getting a 12-car out the way will be tricky at times, it’ll no doubt have to go to Hornsey, but either via the down slow no2 and Harringay Viaduct, or via Bowes Park siding - both time consuming for a driver whose supposed to be off the train (so potentially delaying their next pickup), and both routes may be blocked by other ECS moves at certain times of day.

Add to all this that the station is a congested (crime-ridden) dump, any last-minute platform change - which is common - will mean a driver waiting to take charge of a train will be delayed spending 2 or 3 minutes negotiating the subway.

 

[WeGoAgain]

For a start there’s no depot there - so the moment something goes wrong there’s the problem that crews are all over the place, and remote from anyone directly supervising the reliefs. There’s scope for crews to be delayed on route to the pickup point, and no spares readily available should things go wrong.

Even if there was a depot there it would still be problematic, as the moment a train finds itself with no relief it’s bound to be blocking something. Even off-peak the station has 10x GN, 5x TL and 5x EC passing through each way - plus open access, ECS and freight. Combined with a track layout that isn’t wonderfully forgiving, it’s asking for trouble - which is exactly what’s been happening. From many of the platforms there’s also no ready place to take a train out of service to if there’s no driver to take it forward. Even from platform 7 getting a 12-car out the way will be tricky at times.

I'm not sure these issues are specific to FPK and would almost certainly be possible issues at any location where a Depot does not exist. Even where a depot does exist, there is no guarantee of a physical supervisor being allocated there nor spare drivers (as they may have already been used).

IMO, the blocking of lines needn't be such a big issue as it is now (especially on the down), if only people knew what was going on/what they were doing. Delays to non TL services could possibly be reduced quite a bit if this were the case.

Add to all this that the station is a congested (crime-ridden) dump, any last-minute platform change - which is common - will mean a driver waiting to take charge of a train will be delayed spending 2 or 3 minutes negotiating the subway.

Point taken.