Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Failed Unit]

Looks like the 15th July is already going to be a failure. great northern advising a seriously reduced timetable. (Which is already very poor)

So much for a timetable they can resource. They are already saying they will fail day 1.

1 tph on the Moorgate route to Hertford / Welwyn
1 tph on London - Cambridge

Subject to staff of course.

 

[bramling]

Looks like the 15th July is already going to be a failure. great northern advising a seriously reduced timetable. (Which is already very poor)

So much for a timetable they can resource. They are already saying they will fail day 1.

I think it’s a fair bet that *if* this revised timetable doesn’t deliver a fair level of service pretty quickly then GTR’s position will become untenable. It would be interesting to see what happens then, as it’s a poison chalice for anyone to take on, least of all the DFT.

If this project is to salvage even a crumb of credibility then next week needs to go very well.

 

[OwenB]

I think it’s a fair bet that *if* this revised timetable doesn’t deliver a fair level of service pretty quickly then GTR’s position will become untenable. It would be interesting to see what happens then, as it’s a poison chalice for anyone to take on, least of all the DFT.

If this project is to salvage even a crumb of credibility then next week needs to go very well.

Anyone with knowledge of what's going on have an idea of how things are likely to turn out next week? I have my fingers crossed.

 

[Hadders]

I see that GTR have announced their enhanced compensation scheme.

https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/industrycomp/

Additional industry compensation
We understand that many customers have been affected by disruption to our services and we are very sorry for that.

In agreement with the Department for Transport we will be offering additional compensation through an industry compensation scheme for those Thameslink and Great Northern passengers most severely affected by disruption following May’s timetable change.

Additional industry compensation will be paid to qualifying season ticket holders according to the level of disruption experienced on Thameslink and Great Northern services
We continue to encourage all customers to claim compensation via our Delay Repay scheme whenever they experience a delay of 15 minutes or more and Enhanced Compensation where appropriate. To find out more please visit our Delay Repay page.

Nothing for people who travel regularly (2 or 3 times a week) but not often enough to warrant a season ticket.

 

[bramling]

Anyone with knowledge of what's going on have an idea of how things are likely to turn out next week? I have my fingers crossed.

From an operational point of view it ought to go better as there shouldn’t be the problem of what happens to a train which has no driver, so there shouldn’t be reactionary issues like an evening train cancelled due to no driver, then next morning’s working cancelled as the driver was there but the train never made it to the siding the previous night, et cetera.

However it depends on whether they have actually managed to devise something which is actually achievable. Three obvious risks spring to mind:
1) Will the stock be in the right place to start with? This could lead to a rocky start but should improve within a day or two.
2) Summer holiday time is fast approaching and this is a time when coverage is often at its worst, even for an operation which is not at its knees. At best this will not help matters.
3) We will still be left with late running as a result of the Thameslink concept. Expect erratic unplanned gaps to continue if your station is only served by core services at some or all times.

 

[OwenB]

From an operational point of view it ought to go better as there shouldn’t be the problem of what happens to a train which has no driver, so there shouldn’t be reactionary issues like an evening train cancelled due to no driver, then next morning’s working cancelled as the driver was there but the train never made it to the siding the previous night, et cetera.

However it depends on whether they have actually managed to devise something which is actually achievable. Three obvious risks spring to mind:
1) Will the stock be in the right place to start with? This could lead to a rocky start but should improve within a day or two.
2) Summer holiday time is fast approaching and this is a time when coverage is often at its worst, even for an operation which is not at its knees. At best this will not help matters.
3) We will still be left with late running as a result of the Thameslink concept. Expect erratic unplanned gaps to continue if your station is only served by core services at some or all times.

Thank you. Hopefully if there are some issues, it will be short term as you describe. I really hope this makes this a much more reliable commute, as it has been a stressful few weeks. I guess I am luckier than some in that the Moorgate line serves Hatfield and has been a saviour on more than one occasion.

On the plus side, I feel like I have learnt a great deal about how the railway works and the challenges involved since May, which has been very interesting to me.

 

[Chris999999]

Anyone with knowledge of what's going on have an idea of how things are likely to turn out next week? I have my fingers crossed.

It is quite clear. GTR have said they need 790 drivers for the new timetable. and they have 890 available.
Therefore there will not be any cancellations because drivers are not available.
From Monday PPM will be in the high 90s%.

 

[OwenB]

It is quite clear. GTR have said they need 790 drivers for the new timetable. and they have 890 available.
Therefore there will not be any cancellations because drivers are not available.
From Monday PPM will be in the high 90s%.

Thanks. So we are okay to bebe cautiously optimistic. Let's hope so!

 

[Failed Unit]

It is quite clear. GTR have said they need 790 drivers for the new timetable. and they have 890 available.
Therefore there will not be any cancellations because drivers are not available.
From Monday PPM will be in the high 90s%.

That joke really made my evening. I suspect next week will be just as bad as this week considering the great northern peak timetable has more peak trains in it than the current one they make such a hash of every single day. Will the 0727 Cambridge - London run? Occasionally.

 

[AM9]

The post I quoted suggested scrapping the Desiro’s - far more wasteful than a refurb.

Ah yes, sorry I should have guessed who was suggesting scrapping them. Still, it's not going to happen. Bar accidents, they have at least 30 years working life in them, just like their predecessors, the 319s.

 

[bramling]

That joke really made my evening. I suspect next week will be just as bad as this week considering the great northern peak timetable has more peak trains in it than the current one they make such a hash of every single day. Will the 0727 Cambridge - London run? Occasionally.

I’ll be surprised if they get a good PPM - even if we overlook the driver fiasco there’s still a lot of late running being transmitted through the core that isn’t getting recovered through padding. The more services run the more this will show up. And needless to say we can expect meltdown on the occasions there’s an infrastructure failure somewhere.

 

[bramling]

Ah yes, sorry I should have guessed who was suggesting scrapping them. Still, it's not going to happen. Bar accidents, they have at least 30 years working life in them, just like their predecessors, the 319s.

If you read elsewhere you’ll see I have proposed beneficial alternative uses for them at various times, in such a way that delivers increased capacity all round. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that.

Incidentally I wouldn’t bet your pension on the undesiros seeing out their time on ShamblesLink/. If anyone had suggested what would happen with the 707s it might have been considered unlikely, yet here we are with those.

 

[The Box Photter]

There are no 365's stored at Ely any more.

Putting two and two together, it appears there are more 365's in Passenger service now. So unless those at Ely have been stored somewhere else, your suggestion has already come to fruition, (as some on here forecast would happen).

There were a **** load of them stabled at Northampton when I passed through this afternoon.

Get them back in service to move passengers from where they live to where they work.

Enough with this "interim timetable" malarky. They've had long enough and been found sorely wanting.

Sack the lot and run some trains. It's that simple.

 

[Failed Unit]

Ah yes, sorry I should have guessed who was suggesting scrapping them. Still, it's not going to happen. Bar accidents, they have at least 30 years working life in them, just like their predecessors, the 319s.

I hope that one day they will get retro-fitted to modern standards, decent seats, usb points etc. Like the 717s. (Well seats may be rubbish in them). But other trains get improved over their life. Hopefully the 700s will.

 

[OwenB]

I hope that one day they will get retro-fitted to modern standards, decent seats, usb points etc. Like the 717s. (Well seats may be rubbish in them). But other trains get improved over their life. Hopefully the 700s will.

I think these 700s could be okay. They need a seating configuration where I don't have to saw off my own legs to sit by the window and seat padding of some sort, so it doesn't feel like I'm sitting on a concrete slab. Surely this is achievable. Someone mentioned a few days ago about taking out the seats in the middle that face each other and rearrange the seating from there.

Power points and USB ports are lower down my list!

 

[bramling]

I think these 700s could be okay. They need a seating configuration where I don't have to saw off my own legs to sit by the window and seat padding of some sort, so it doesn't feel like I'm sitting on a concrete slab. Surely this is achievable. Someone mentioned a few days ago about taking out the seats in the middle that face each other and rearrange the seating from there.

Power points and USB ports are lower down my list!

Just make the whole interior like the first class and they wouldn’t be too bad. Still a few other niggles though.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think these 700s could be okay. They need a seating configuration where I don't have to saw off my own legs to sit by the window and seat padding of some sort, so it doesn't feel like I'm sitting on a concrete slab. Surely this is achievable. Someone mentioned a few days ago about taking out the seats in the middle that face each other and rearrange the seating from there.

Power points and USB ports are lower down my list!

Low down on mine as well. But remember some people are on them for journeys over 2 hours. Likewise with the large gaps in the timetable and lack of information you soon flatten your phone battery at the moment trying to find out if / when the next train will run. But will leave this subject here as we have lots of threads about the poor specification of the class 700s interior.

 

[OwenB]

Just make the whole interior like the first class and they wouldn’t be too bad. Still a few other niggles though.

The ride isn't exactly smooth. But I guess they're with us for the long haul, so may as well do what they can to make them more comfortable. Making it like first class is now is a decent idea.

 

[OwenB]

Low down on mine as well. But remember some people are on them for journeys over 2 hours. Likewise with the large gaps in the timetable and lack of information you soon flatten your phone battery at the moment trying to find out if / when the next train will run. But will leave this subject here as we have lots of threads about the poor specification of the class 700s interior.

Bringing it back on point... Once the trains are more reliable and they reintroduce services, then the need decreases! Let's hope, anyway!

 

[Hadders]

If the 700s were fitted with a 365 style layout there’d be fine.

 

[Bungle965]

The ride isn't exactly smooth. But I guess they're with us for the long haul, so may as well do what they can to make them more comfortable. Making it like first class is now is a decent idea.

Almost all of Siemens products have what can be described as lively suspension. 185s are the worst that I have come across.
Sam

 

[Skimble19]

Anyone with knowledge of what's going on have an idea of how things are likely to turn out next week? I have my fingers crossed.

Sunday is likely to be bad, Monday may not be great but shouldn't (and I stress shouldn't, not won't!) be as bad as Mondays have been for the past 8 weeks. Tuesday onwards it should settle down and become fairly stable (finally!).

 

[Failed Unit]

Sunday is likely to be bad, Monday may not be great but shouldn't (and I stress shouldn't, not won't!) be as bad as Mondays have been for the past 8 weeks. Tuesday onwards it should settle down and become fairly stable (finally!).

Do you think that will include the weekends where the reduced timetable is already poor. But the cancellations result in frequent big gaps? Or is as far as you are aware then management only focusing on the weekdays as leisure travel isn’t important in their eyes?

 

[MML]

The new revised timetable on Monday should show what the real reasons for the failure have been.

If it operates successfully without cancellations, then they have overcome the rostering issues and are matching drivers with train plans, so are able to efficiently utilise the drivers and rolling stock.
On the other hand, as I suspect, if services remain effectively half-hour interval on most routes with cancellations persisting, then they still haven't trained sufficient drivers. My betting is on the latter, since most services on the MML are still doubled up with driver and instructor. And I still don't believe drivers are based in their correct locations yet.

A case of external communications still being removed from reality on the ground.

 

[Aictos]

If the 700s were fitted with a 365 style layout there’d be fine.

Not the current layout but the layout that the 317/6s have then yes as that was the best interior the 365s ever had.

 

[jon0844]

Drivers seem confident things will run a lot better. The information given to passengers will improve too, hopefully, with less 'on time' trains suddenly disappearing because the inbound/return workings weren't linked up to allow the non-existent train to show as delayed/cancelled automatically. Doing all of that manually was, well, what made all of these things so much worse in recent weeks.

I also hope we no longer need stop orders on trains that cause chaos and confusion for passengers and staff, with drivers able to refuse and then confuse matters more. Of course they can do this because it's their train, so it's not an attack on drivers, rather the fact that the information is then wrong. It just hasn't been possible to wait for confirmation that a driver accepted a stop order before putting information on the screen, and when that has been attempted you end up with trains stopping that aren't shown at all. Just as bad in many cases, as people have taken other trains or left the station to get a bus/taxi or whatever.

Monday requires getting stock into the right positions, but Tuesday onwards will almost certainly be a vast improvement. Perfect? Maybe not. Reliable? I think so. [come back and quote this to me next week!]

 

[OwenB]

Drivers seem confident things will run a lot better.

I think that's pretty relieving to hear. If those guys think things will be okay, then that's good to hear.

 

[tsr]

I also hope we no longer need stop orders on trains that cause chaos and confusion for passengers and staff, with drivers able to refuse and then confuse matters more. Of course they can do this because it's their train, so it's not an attack on drivers, rather the fact that the information is then wrong.

Refusing a stop order used to be a matter for investigation and potential disciplinary action. The clue is in the word “Order”. Unless there is a very good reason (eg. the stop is on a route which the crew don’t sign, it would cause severe overcrowding, or it would involve a diversion with substantial overtime worked) then the crew should not think they are optional. Yet this appears to be happening (and GTR Control don’t care much either) - some might say the tide of drivers refusing orders is a worrying symptom of the near-complete breakdown in relationships in some places.

 

[Hadders]

Refusing a stop order used to be a matter for investigation and potential disciplinary action. The clue is in the word “Order”. Unless there is a very good reason (eg. the stop is on a route which the crew don’t sign, it would cause severe overcrowding, or it would involve a diversion with substantial overtime worked) then the crew should not think they are optional. Yet this appears to be happening (and GTR Control don’t care much either) - some might say the tide of drivers refusing orders is a worrying symptom of the near-complete breakdown in relationships in some places.

I wonder if dispatch procedures are an issue. For example a special stop order on a 12-car 365 at Arlesey. Could a driver refuse such a stop if a platform dispatcher isn't available?

 

[arb]

Refusing a stop order used to be a matter for investigation and potential disciplinary action. The clue is in the word “Order”. Unless there is a very good reason (eg. the stop is on a route which the crew don’t sign, it would cause severe overcrowding, or it would involve a diversion with substantial overtime worked) then the crew should not think they are optional. Yet this appears to be happening (and GTR Control don’t care much either) - some might say the tide of drivers refusing orders is a worrying symptom of the near-complete breakdown in relationships in some places.

My commute misses the worst of the problems, but on the both of the two occasions that I've personally witnessed drivers refusing to make an extra stop that has been previously announced, it's been on safety grounds because the train has already been packed and bursting with passengers. Obviously I have no idea if my sample size of two accurately reflects the bigger situation