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Thameslink taking me to court over a fare I've already paid

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msil94

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On Good Friday this year, I was travelling to Turkey, so got a bus from Liverpool Street to London Bridge, and then took the Thameslink to Gatwick. The barrier let me through no problem. Around South Croydon, a ticket inspector comes up and asks me for my ticket. I used contactless on my phone to pay, so offered him my phone to scan. He did so, and it came up as declined, which was weird because the barrier let me through. He said it might be due to insufficient funds. I usually don't keep significant amounts of money in my current account because I've been a victim of fraud twice before, so it usually just stays in my Monzo pot and I transfer it as and when I need it. However, I always thought that rather than accept or decline it on the same day, it stays pending until the following morning when they attempt to take money out. Anyway, he read my my Miranda rights (bizarre), took down my details and told me I'd need to send proof of payment in the form of a bank statement. He let me off on my merry way, and I had a lovely 10 days in Turkey, the money coming out of my account to pay for the fare a few days later.

A few weeks back I finally get a letter from them asking to hear my side of the story. I tell them everything, send my bank statement (I'm attaching the letter I sent them), and get a response saying they're willing to settle out of court for £70. I send them back a letter asking their reasons for not accepting my proof as well as an annotated bank statement (with a nice big arrow coloured in with yellow and pink highlighter pointing to where it was paid). They reply saying that because the transaction says 'UNPAID FARES', it means I was travelling without a valid ticket.

I called TFL and told them my story, and they looked at my account, saw that the journey was indeed paid for and told me basically I'm in the clear. He said it was really weird they were still pursuing it, and that just because it says unpaid fares on my statement, doesn't mean I was travelling without a valid ticket. He agreed with me that they were a failing franchise who were trying to make a buck off me.

I also got in touch with a mate of mine who's a magistrate, and he deals with cases like this all the time, and he says it's pretty water tight as long as I have proof of payment.

All this makes me pretty confident I'd be able to win in court, but what do you think? Are there any problems with my case? Is there something I've missed? Is it worth letting them take me to court?
 

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msil94

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@msil94. Welcome to the forum. What was the actual amount taken from your payment account on 7th April?
Thanks for having me!

So, it didn't actually come out on the 7th April, it took a few days for it to come out (11th I think). The amount paid was £11.25 (£9.50 for the train, £1.75 for the bus)
 

swt_passenger

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Is your card registered on a TfL account? You might consider printing that out and using it as evidence as well.

No idea why your bank puts “unpaid” on a statement, unless it’s a poor attempt to explain it‘s only being paid a few days later than it happened? (This is now explained in a later post, #11.)
 
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Hadders

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Welcome to the forum.

This sounds very similar to a case I've linked to below, where there seems to be a known problem.


It sounds as though TfL and GTR need to get their heads together. I've looped in @MikeWh as he's our expert when it comes to contactless travel.
 

island

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Were you using an Android phone? There are known issues with them.
 

Haywain

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Has your card been registered on the TfL Oyster website? For a registered card you would be able to get a print out of the journey history, but I am not sure how long that is available for a bank card* - this is something else that @MikeWh will probably be able to advise on. If you are able to provide GTR with a journey history it will be more meaningful than a bank statement as it would show when the journey was undertaken and what fare was paid.


*The journey history will be available for a year, so this is definitely the way to get evidence of the journey made and paid for.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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£9.50 seems to be the Off Peak PAYG single fare from London Bridge / London Terminals to Gatwick Airport using a contactless payment card.

 

Ediswan

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No idea why your bank puts “unpaid” on a statement, unless it’s a poor attempt to explain it‘s only being paid a few days later than it happened?
Text descriptions of payments are usually (always ?) supplied by the party taking the payment, not the bank.
 

James H

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Some banks ‘enrich’ the merchant data (sometimes to the point of making it inaccurate)

Can you post a screenshot of what showed up on your Monzo account here?
 

furlong

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Oh dear - again! The train company needs to get its head around the fact that contactless is NOT a prepayment system. When you travel, you incur a liability to pay for your journeys the next day, and provision is made for later payment with no penalty.

You should refer GTR ever so politely to TfL's website which explains how contactless works! (You could also refer them to any of the ORR, your MP, the DfT, the press etc. for a variety of breaches here too.)

"A green light, accompanied by one beep, means that your contactless payment card has been accepted for travel."

"We will charge the fares(s) for the journey(s) to your account after you have completed your journey(s) for that day."

"If your card is declined when we submit it for payment, you authorise us to seek to take payment using your card details again on a number of additional occasions until we receive the full payment. This payment will show in your bank account as TFL.GOV.UK/CP TFL UNPAID FA. We will not seek payment on more than three occasions nor more than once a day nor for longer than 30 days after your payment was declined."
 

bob007

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Is this a case of where cooperating so eagerly has given them ammunition? Could or should the poster have replied differently to their “your side of the story” letter?
 

AdamWW

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Have they said what law they would intend to prosecute this under if not settled out of court?

I presume that there must have been a valid touch-in for the correct fare to have been (ultimately) charged automatically, so I would hope that a prosecution for failure to show a valid ticket or boarding a train without a valid ticket would fail.

What does that leave?
 

msil94

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Some banks ‘enrich’ the merchant data (sometimes to the point of making it inaccurate)

Can you post a screenshot of what showed up on your Monzo account here?
 

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30907

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Thanks. I would go with Furlong's approach here in post #11.

You could also point out that the payment to was made on the next working day after travel (it being the Easter weekend).
 

MrJeeves

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Not sure, as I don't use contactless in London, but aren't "Unpaid fares" transactions normally as a result of a failed attempt to take money before?

If this failed before, it's possible the OP's card could have actually been blocked until the funds could be taken.
 

furlong

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The point is simply whether the green light showed - the barrier opened - at the start of the journey. With contactless, everything else is irrelevant. If there were outstanding fares BEFORE the journey began, then the card wouldn't have been accepted for travel.
 

MrJeeves

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Is it not possible for the fares to attempt to be debited while OP is travelling, and then the card being blocked mid-journey? A long stretch, of course, stretching into hypotheticals now, I would say.
 

KGX

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Not sure, as I don't use contactless in London, but aren't "Unpaid fares" transactions normally as a result of a failed attempt to take money before?

If this failed before, it's possible the OP's card could have actually been blocked until the funds could be taken.
The OP has posted his bank account. Looks like it failed because he had no money in the account... but not sure why that even matters if he got through the gates!
 

AdamWW

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The OP has posted his bank account. Looks like it failed because he had no money in the account... but not sure why that even matters if he got through the gates!

Indeed. Once you've had a valid touch-in, it doesn't seem reasonable for it to be a criminal offence if a transaction goes through during travel which reduces the balance to zero.
 

swt_passenger

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Is it not possible for the fares to attempt to be debited while OP is travelling, and then the card being blocked mid-journey? A long stretch, of course, stretching into hypotheticals now, I would say.
I don’t believe so, because when using contactless they wait till the end of the day, (ie overnight at the end of the fares day), then operate daily or weekly capping for the recorded zones etc, and only then attempt to debit the card.
 

Sultan

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If this did go to court, where I assume it would be thrown out on a number of technicalities, can the OP request compensation at the time for the unnecessary effort and inconvenience in defending something that didn't need defending? Or is that a separate action that may or may not be successful?
 

Ediswan

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The OP has posted his bank account. Looks like it failed because he had no money in the account... but not sure why that even matters if he got through the gates!
It looks to me like the transaction shown was successful. Balance reduced from 12.42 to 1.17.
 

Dave W

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I'm confused by the mechanism where a card is accepted for travel by TfL (by virtue of access through gates), but then appears as declined on an RPI's reader. Does the reader interrogate TfL's system, or does it take a type of shadow payment from the card (which could indeed lead to showing as declined).

Not detracting from the fact that the OP held a valid means of travel by way of his contactless payment card, and so GTR are surely tying themselves up in knots.
 

AdamWW

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I'm confused by the mechanism where a card is accepted for travel by TfL (by virtue of access through gates), but then appears as declined on an RPI's reader. Does the reader interrogate TfL's system, or does it take a type of shadow payment from the card (which could indeed lead to showing as declined).

Not detracting from the fact that the OP held a valid means of travel by way of his contactless payment card, and so GTR are surely tying themselves up in knots.

My understanding is that with the TfL system none of the "taps" are actually transactions in the usual sense of the word; they just register the event and are used later on to work out how much to actually charge the card.

I thought that during an inspection it just registers the tap on the reader, and if when everything is reconciled at the end of the day there is an inspection record without a suitable tap in before and tap out afterwards then it charges a maximum fare.

(But not on buses where the inspector first downloads a list of tapped-in cards).

There seem to have been events reported here with Google Pay where the "card" was seen as invalid during an inspection and this was treated as fare evasion despite there being evidence of a valid tap in on the phone itself.
 

KGX

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It looks to me like the transaction shown was successful. Balance reduced from 12.42 to 1.17.
Yes, on the 11th. Journey was on the 7th. The balance increased to £12.42 after £10 was added on the 11th. The payment of £11.25 was then able to be taken.
Regardless though, I thought that could/does happen.
 

kristiang85

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If there was some sort of compensation scheme where, say, when a train operator wrongly makes a mistake of accusation of fare evasion and wastes a passenger's time having to deal with it and they have to pay £100 (in interests of equity), I'm sure these IT issues would be sorted very quickly....
 
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jumble

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On Good Friday this year, I was travelling to Turkey, so got a bus from Liverpool Street to London Bridge, and then took the Thameslink to Gatwick. The barrier let me through no problem. Around South Croydon, a ticket inspector comes up and asks me for my ticket. I used contactless on my phone to pay, so offered him my phone to scan. He did so, and it came up as declined, which was weird because the barrier let me through. He said it might be due to insufficient funds. I usually don't keep significant amounts of money in my current account because I've been a victim of fraud twice before, so it usually just stays in my Monzo pot and I transfer it as and when I need it. However, I always thought that rather than accept or decline it on the same day, it stays pending until the following morning when they attempt to take money out. Anyway, he read my my Miranda rights (bizarre), took down my details and told me I'd need to send proof of payment in the form of a bank statement. He let me off on my merry way, and I had a lovely 10 days in Turkey, the money coming out of my account to pay for the fare a few days later.

A few weeks back I finally get a letter from them asking to hear my side of the story. I tell them everything, send my bank statement (I'm attaching the letter I sent them), and get a response saying they're willing to settle out of court for £70. I send them back a letter asking their reasons for not accepting my proof as well as an annotated bank statement (with a nice big arrow coloured in with yellow and pink highlighter pointing to where it was paid). They reply saying that because the transaction says 'UNPAID FARES', it means I was travelling without a valid ticket.

I called TFL and told them my story, and they looked at my account, saw that the journey was indeed paid for and told me basically I'm in the clear. He said it was really weird they were still pursuing it, and that just because it says unpaid fares on my statement, doesn't mean I was travelling without a valid ticket. He agreed with me that they were a failing franchise who were trying to make a buck off me.

I also got in touch with a mate of mine who's a magistrate, and he deals with cases like this all the time, and he says it's pretty water tight as long as I have proof of payment.

All this makes me pretty confident I'd be able to win in court, but what do you think? Are there any problems with my case? Is there something I've missed? Is it worth letting them take me to court?
Perhaps ask TFL if the contactless system tries to take the fare and it is declined by the bank what happens next
Does it retry after an interval before giving up?
@MikeWh might know
 

AdamWW

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Perhaps ask TFL if the contactless system tries to take the fare and it is declined by the bank what happens next
Does it retry after an interval before giving up?
@MikeWh might know
Explained earlier in this thread.
 

MikeWh

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Thanks for all the mentions. I'm actually on holiday at the moment, but I've linked this thread to my contact at TfL.
 
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