The 2024 US presidential election.

[Purple Train]

You forgot immigration- probably number 1 or 2.

Note to self: do not go into politics unless you are absolutely certain you are suffering from no side effects of insomnia - quite the glaring omission, sorry!

 

[Busaholic]

It would have gone away, but then I think the Associated Press did a story to confirm it was fake (which then got it into the mainstream) and shortly after that, removed the article - prompting people to think that means the story is true (I think it was removed as it wasn't a story that the publishers thought appropriate to cover).

It's a story that will just keep on running it seems!

Nice to see the Magamob get a taste of their own tactics.

 

[birchesgreen]

There is plenty of mad stuff involving Vance that IS true though, latest i've seen is him saying in an interview that childless people should pay more tax to punish them.

 

[nw1]

You forgot immigration- probably number 1 or 2.

Immigration, taxes, guns, abortion. None of which are the real big issues IMO (well, not in the way the Right want things to be, at least). If I was an American I'd see my five priorities, in this order, as:

1. Introduce universal healthcare which doesn't cost silly amounts of money to access.
2. Address the growing authoritarianism of the Trumpist and evangelical right, who seem to want to take away many basic freedoms.
3. Address the gap between rich and poor in the USA more generally.
4. Work towards world stability with a focus in particular on Ukraine and the Middle East, but work to fight creeping authoritarianism more generally.
5. Address climate change. The USA includes locations currently blighted by extreme heat and has also experienced extreme floods - you'd think the average American would be more acutely aware of climate change than the average Northwestern European living in a much cooler and cloudier climate, as they suffer from its effects much more.

Of course people like JD Vance doubtless think such things are communist. I do wonder how members of the American evangelical right would cope if they fell on hard times, caused in no small part by their own system. Expect God to save them? And if he doesn't....?

 

[jfollows]

Immigration, taxes, guns, abortion. None of which are the real big issues IMO (well, not in the way the Right want things to be, at least). If I was an American I'd see my five priorities, in this order, as:

1. Introduce universal healthcare which doesn't cost silly amounts of money to access.
2. Address the growing authoritarianism of the Trumpist and evangelical right, who seem to want to take away many basic freedoms.
3. Address the gap between rich and poor in the USA more generally.
4. Work towards world stability with a focus in particular on Ukraine and the Middle East, but work to fight creeping authoritarianism more generally.
5. Address climate change. The USA includes locations currently blighted by extreme heat and has also experienced extreme floods - you'd think the average American would be more acutely aware of climate change than the average Northwestern European living in a much cooler and cloudier climate, as they suffer from its effects much more.

Of course people like JD Vance doubtless think such things are communist. I do wonder how members of the American evangelical right would cope if they fell on hard times, caused in no small part by their own system. Expect God to save them? And if he doesn't....?

It's a different world, with different values. You are trying to impose your values on a totally different country than either the UK or most of Western Europe.

Significant numbers of people think, and vote for people who think and say that the poor in the USA are undeserving, they got there through their own inadequacies, and ultimately it's down to God, who is of course an old white man with a beard. If the evangelical right fall on hard times, although they rarely seem to, it's their fault and God's will, and God will provide. And the rest of the world can go to hell, it's not important. And God will sort out climate change.

My point is that large numbers of Americans think this sort of stuff, whereas relatively small numbers of "Europeans" do. It's such a different country. It's about making it by your own means and skills, and anyone who doesn't only has themselves to blame, because in America anyone can make it. Here we generally believe in redistribution of wealth through government, it's only the nuances that we argue about, not the principle.

You (and I) would just be dismissed as harmless nutcases, strange foreigners with foreign values. US politicians know their voters, and what appeals to them, and none of your priorities do.

 

[nw1]

It's a different world, with different values. You are trying to impose your values on a totally different country than either the UK or most of Western Europe.

Significant numbers of people think, and vote for people who think and say that the poor in the USA are undeserving, they got there through their own inadequacies, and ultimately it's down to God, who is of course an old white man with a beard. If the evangelical right fall on hard times, although they rarely seem to, it's their fault and God's will, and God will provide. And the rest of the world can go to hell, it's not important. And God will sort out climate change.

My point is that large numbers of Americans think this sort of stuff, whereas relatively small numbers of "Europeans" do. It's such a different country. It's about making it by your own means and skills, and anyone who doesn't only has themselves to blame, because in America anyone can make it. Here we generally believe in redistribution of wealth through government, it's only the nuances that we argue about, not the principle.

You (and I) would just be dismissed as harmless nutcases, strange foreigners with foreign values. US politicians know their voters, and what appeals to them, and none of your priorities do.

It's strange because in some ways America is so familiar through its films, its TV, its film and rock stars, and its global brands and tech companies - yet in other ways, so alien.

I will say that most Americans I have spoken to (not a huge number, and always in the UK or in blue states) do seem to broadly share my values and are quite critical of "the system", but perhaps these were atypical. I have always stayed well clear of red states as they hold nothing of interest for me.

It should also be said that presumably a significant number of Americans do have more "European-style" or centre-left values: witness Black Lives Matter, the Palestine university protests, and the support of LGBTQ+ rights for example. This significant group presumably do indeed care about some or all of the points I listed above.

 

[jfollows]

It's strange because in some ways America is so familiar through its films, its TV, its pop stars, and its global brands and tech companies - yet in other ways, so alien.

I will say that most Americans I have spoken to (not a huge number, and always in the UK or in blue states) do seem to broadly share my values and are quite critical of "the system", but perhaps these were atypical. I have always stayed well clear of red states as they hold nothing of interest for me.

I think that's right, and of course my previous post was full of generalisations, but I've lived in various parts of the USA (albeit not recently) and there are only a few parts of it I would want to live in permanently. It's a great country filled with wonderful and generous people whom it was a pleasure to meet, but a lot of them hold values which are quite different from yours or mine.

 

[Magdalia]

Nicely ignoring the fact that Clinton is (if I remember correctly) a practising Methodist and Biden (ditto) a practising Catholic. But then I have noticed that certain branches of evangelicalism do get a little sniffy about other denominations.

Some historical perspective may be useful here.

The teachings of Jesus in the bible have nothing about church, that it an invention of St Paul.

In the early days of Christianity there were effectively 2 main churches, Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox.

The invention of printing led to a proliferation of dissent against the Roman Catholic Church.

Much of the early migration to the "New World" was dissenters fleeing from persecution.

With the proliferation of different churches (denominations), there has to be what marketing people would call product differentiation.

Different churches therefore choose different bits of the bible to elevate in importance to differentiate their product.

We are now going through the biggest communications revolution since the invention of printing, so it isn't surprising that religion is being affected by that.

 

[Yew]

Much of the early migration to the "New World" was dissenters fleeing from persecution.

Whilst this myth is typically told of the American "Pilgrim Fathers", in reality the reverse is true, many Puritans left Europe as they perceived things to be too liberal, compared to the highly-restricted lifestyle they wanted to lead.

 

[Gloster]

Do not be fooled by the fact that they speak the same language (sort of) and we can listen to their candidates speak and read their witterings without them having to be translated and explained by an intermediary. Their thought processes are completely different and as alien to ours as many a far distant tribe; they are generally further from ours than those of our geographical neighbours.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It's a different world, with different values. You are trying to impose your values on a totally different country than either the UK or most of Western Europe.

Yes I would agree with that. I think the key difference is that in the UK/Europe, a lot of the political culture these days is based on, expecting that the Government will provide everything and that if you're poor, you expect the Government to step in and stop you being poor, irrespective of whether you are making any effort yourself. In America it tends to be the opposite: The expectation is that you as an individual work to provide for yourself/your family and don't keep expecting the Government to do stuff for you. Thus, if you're poor and don't want to be, it's seen more as your responsibility to work to get yourself out of poverty. For that reason, @nw1's points 1 and 3 (universal healthcare, and reducing the gap between rich and poor) would be a tough sell in the US.

Having said that, I think @nw1's other points - addressing and condemning the Trumpist right's distaste for democracy, sorting out stability in the World, and addressing climate change, ought to be very well aligned with American values - it's just that the Republicans have to a large extent deserted the values of democracy and stability/international cooperation and gone all anti-science on climate change.

 

[Trainguy34]

Yeah who was it? Johnson wasn't it? Or was it Sunak? Not sure, I can't remember the date that the baton passed from one to the other.

Can't remember the exact dates, but it took them just over a month

 

[railfan99]

A recent poll claims Harris and Trump are neck and neck, but it's too early.

However what matters is the performance of each in November in the so-called 'swing states' that will decide the election, such as Georgia.

It doesn't matter that 'people in tech are largely socially liberal' because a goodly percentage live in California that with its 55 delegates is always going to be a Democratic win.

 

[jfollows]

Can't remember the exact dates, but it took them just over a month

Truss - remember her? - was PM when the Queen died, which was the original question.
6 September to 25 October 2022 were the dates between Boris Johnson & Rishi Sunak being PM.

 

[Trainguy34]

Truss - remember her? - was PM when the Queen died, which was the original question.
6 September to 25 October 2022 were the dates between Boris Johnson & Rishi Sunak being PM.

Oh yeah, outlived by a cabbage woman!

 

[jfollows]

Oh yeah, outlived by a cabbage woman!

Lettuce, to be pedantic, I think!
Sorry, well off topic now, I’ll shut up.

 

[edwin_m]

Can't remember the exact dates, but it took them just over a month

Can't place the name ... wasn't it something like ... "Lost Trust"?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think that's right, and of course my previous post was full of generalisations, but I've lived in various parts of the USA (albeit not recently) and there are only a few parts of it I would want to live in permanently. It's a great country filled with wonderful and generous people whom it was a pleasure to meet, but a lot of them hold values which are quite different from yours or mine.

And I have lived in the USA for 24 years. 12 in Missouri in the Kansas City area, 1 year in Indianapolis, 4 years in Dayton Ohio and 7 years in Dalton Georgia. What you say in your post is absolutely perfect. They are different. The older well educated ones and most of the rest can’t get their heads around the fact that Sir Winston Churchill was a hero who won the 2nd World War but then got thrashed in the General Election that followed. It makes zero sense to many Americans. They just think differently and have different values.

 

[brad465]

Trump saying the quiet part out loud:

x.com

x.com

Trump: “Get out and vote just this time. You won't have to do it anymore. Four more years it will be fixed. It'll be fine. You won't have to vote anymore...In four years you don't have to vote again. We'll have it fixed so good your not gonna have to vote.”

Video attached

 

[Bantamzen]

Trump saying the quiet part out loud:

x.com

x.com

But he didn't say that.. Well ok he did but he didn't mean it... It was a joke... You misunderstood what he was saying... Fake media... It's all a liberal conspiracy... The election is being stolen...

That should cover off most Trump supporters' excuses..

 

[Busaholic]

And I have lived in the USA for 24 years. 12 in Missouri in the Kansas City area, 1 year in Indianapolis, 4 years in Dayton Ohio and 7 years in Dalton Georgia. What you say in your post is absolutely perfect. They are different. The older well educated ones and most of the rest can’t get their heads around the fact that Sir Winston Churchill was a hero who won the 2nd World War but then got thrashed in the General Election that followed. It makes zero sense to many Americans. They just think differently and have different values.

I take all that, but it wasn't only Americans who couldn't get why Churchill got ditched in 1945. I was born in 1948, my father had commanded a tank in the war, revered Field Marshal Montgomery (to the extent I was given his first name as my third!) and became the treasurer of the local Conservative party. Later on, he left those party connections behind and supported the Labour party, but I'm sure there were many other mainly middle class people who at the time felt betrayed by the electorate. My father became a huge supporter of the NHS, incidentally, the creation of which coincided with my birth.

 

[birchesgreen]

Lettuce, to be pedantic, I think!
Sorry, well off topic now, I’ll shut up.

Its on topic in a way, there is a lot of speculation that Vance could be binned and some are using the lettuce meme.

 

[brad465]

Its on topic in a way, there is a lot of speculation that Vance could be binned and some are using the lettuce meme.

The situation between Vance and Trump would have to get really bad for this to happen. Even though Trump is now clearly the only "old demented guy" in this election now, the Democrats will still be impeded by chopping and changing candidates relatively last minute. If Trump ditches Vance he suddenly loses that advantage and if anything comes out worse, firstly because it will be fresher in voters' minds, second because Vance is clearly not in ill-health so it would clearly be Trump being short-sighted.

 

[Busaholic]

Its on topic in a way, there is a lot of speculation that Vance could be binned and some are using the lettuce meme.

They're scared out of their wits, which is great, but it's vital Harris picks the right running mate now. It should be a straight, white, under-55 male preferably from a swing state, and Senator Mark Kelly from Arizona seems the best bet as an ex-astronaut and a Navy veteran. He can appeal to some of those who wouldn't be attracted by Harris or Trump, but might have been by Vance.

 

[brad465]

They're scared out of their wits, which is great, but it's vital Harris picks the right running mate now. It should be a straight, white, under-55 male preferably from a swing state, and Senator Mark Kelly from Arizona seems the best bet as an ex-astronaut and a Navy veteran. He can appeal to some of those who wouldn't be attracted by Harris or Trump, but might have been by Vance.

Mark Kelly is 60, not under-55, however yes he would be a very good pick and bookies do currently have him as the favourite.

 

[birchesgreen]

The situation between Vance and Trump would have to get really bad for this to happen.

It is bad, Vance is bombing with the voters harder than a squadron of B-52s. They'll have to act fast though as ballot deadlines are fast approaching, i wonder if they are waiting to see who Harris picks as her running mate.

 

[Busaholic]

The situation between Vance and Trump would have to get really bad for this to happen. Even though Trump is now clearly the only "old demented guy" in this election now, the Democrats will still be impeded by chopping and changing candidates relatively last minute. If Trump ditches Vance he suddenly loses that advantage and if anything comes out worse, firstly because it will be fresher in voters' minds, second because Vance is clearly not in ill-health so it would clearly be Trump being short-sighted.

It wouldn't be Trump's decision, but his backers. The other big factor now is going to be the growing suspicion that Trump was not wounded by a bullet but either shrapnel or a piece of handrail, or some such, compounded by a refusal to produce the medical records.

 

[birchesgreen]

It wouldn't be Trump's decision, but his backers. The other big factor now is going to be the growing suspicion that Trump was not wounded by a bullet but either shrapnel or a piece of handrail, or some such, compounded by a refusal to produce the medical records.

Plus he's been spotted playing golf, sans ear bandage and without any apparent injury...

 

[Leven Railuser]

If I were a journalist in the Western Isles, I'd definitely be using the headline "Son of Lewis woman takes on Harris"

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If I were a journalist in the Western Isles, I'd definitely be using the headline "Son of Lewis woman takes on Harris"

Very clever. Too subtle for many Americans of course!