The annual "Boxing Day Trains" row.

[infobleep]

Still doesn't get away from the fact that virtually all TOC staff are not compelled to work Boxing Day. So what you going to do? Prey there is enough volunteers or force it through?

What did they do on Southern to enable boxing day working?

 

[Andyh82]

It's worth remembering that trains will need a lot more back office staff to enable a service to run than say the buses do.

An entire bus network probably had the drivers and maybe one or two engineers and one or two controllers in the depot and that's it. Any bus stations were unstaffed besides security contractors.

 

[LAX54]

Do the shops close later?

6pm and 9pm on a Thursday, some close at 1pm on a Saturday, although not as many as used to

Netherlands, big shops open at 10 or 11 on a Monday, and most shops open at about 12 or 1pm (to 6pm)

 

[LAX54]

What did they do on Southern to enable boxing day working?

The Signalboxes would have been open anyway, so it was just a matter of getting enough Drivers to agree to come into work

 

[LAX54]

It's worth remembering that trains will need a lot more back office staff to enable a service to run than say the buses do.

An entire bus network probably had the drivers and maybe one or two engineers and one or two controllers in the depot and that's it. Any bus stations were unstaffed besides security contractors.

But of course most bus routes do not run on 25th and 26th, although that seems OK !

 

[The Ham]

Shopping can easily be online only on boxing day.

There is a toy retailer who doesn't open any of their shops on Sundays and only has an online presence and does very well out of it.

They have even move out of prime locations because the shopping centers insist on their tennents opening on Sundays and it has worked out fine for them.

 

[dk1]

A TOC decididing to put it into their franchise commitment is the easy part. Now try getting that passed the unions once you've made that promise. Relying on volunteers is all well & good but every time the toys go out of the pram between the two sides, you've got one terrific bargaining tool as nobody will volunteer & thus any Boxing Day plans are in tatters. Remember the Sunday working issues on LM, CT & later EMT? Best leave well alone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A TOC decididing to put it into their franchise commitment is the easy part. Now try getting that passed the unions once you've made that promise. Relying on volunteers is all well & good but every time the toys go out of the pram between the two sides, you've got one terrific bargaining tool as nobody will volunteer & thus any Boxing Day plans are in tatters. Remember the Sunday working issues on LM, CT & later EMT? Best leave well alone.

A strike during a leisure-hour service on Boxing Day is hardly going to knacker a lot, is it? I wouldn't worry.

That said, the one thing I don't get about volunteering (be it for Boxing Day, Sundays or whatever) is why it seems to offer the option to pull out at the last minute. Why is it not "volunteer a month ahead, then once you do you are contractually committed to work unless ill"?

 

[jon0844]

A strike during a leisure-hour service on Boxing Day is hardly going to knacker a lot, is it? I wouldn't worry.

That said, the one thing I don't get about volunteering (be it for Boxing Day, Sundays or whatever) is why it seems to offer the option to pull out at the last minute. Why is it not "volunteer a month ahead, then once you do you are contractually committed to work unless ill"?

If you do that, you'll just get a lot of people going sick.

Personally, I can't see how a TOC wouldn't get sufficient levels of volunteers. Christmas isn't a big deal to everyone, and even to one person it isn't necessarily a big thing every single year for a multitude of reasons.

Many people like working in offices over Christmas, as it's quiet and they can tidy up, get small things done that have been left for months etc.

Not everyone hates working in retail at Christmas. If you're single, you might actually like being out with lots of people and having a laugh with colleagues. Indeed, the work environment might be something you actually miss at Christmas because you're at home, alone.

 

[II]

Still doesn't get away from the fact that virtually all TOC staff are not compelled to work Boxing Day. So what you going to do? Prey there is enough volunteers or force it through?

As with Chiltern I'd be asking for volunteers initially - they don't seem to have had any problems. Some of the staff don't like it (having spoken to them), but that's fine as they don't have to volunteer. Some of the other staff who work as much as they can, and every depot has a few of those let's face it, are more than happy to volunteer as it's good money.

I'd be interested to know how it works at the other TOC's that operate on Boxing Day? Does anybody know?

 

[dk1]

A strike during a leisure-hour service on Boxing Day is hardly going to knacker a lot, is it? I wouldn't worry.

That said, the one thing I don't get about volunteering (be it for Boxing Day, Sundays or whatever) is why it seems to offer the option to pull out at the last minute. Why is it not "volunteer a month ahead, then once you do you are contractually committed to work unless ill"?

I'm not saying anything about a strike. What I am saying is that any plans for a Boxing Day service can be completely ruined should no volunteers come forward. At the many times I have witnessed Free Day working & overtime bans, this would be an ideal opportunity for the workforce & hold the TOC over a barrel. Just not a very reliable way for the company to operate. It will have to be agreed as to when the cut off date for volunteers is to be made.

 

[Dave1987]

As with Chiltern I'd be asking for volunteers initially - they don't seem to have had any problems. Some of the staff don't like it (having spoken to them), but that's fine as they don't have to volunteer. Some of the other staff who work as much as they can, and every depot has a few of those let's face it, are more than happy to volunteer as it's good money.

I'd be interested to know how it works at the other TOC's that operate on Boxing Day? Does anybody know?

So if you didn't get enough volunteers would you force it? It think you grossly over estimate those eagerly willing to work it. Remember you need plenty of volunteers from all grades.

 

[HH]

I'd be interested to know how it works at the other TOC's that operate on Boxing Day? Does anybody know?

Most rely on volunteers and generous terms, such as double time plus a day in lieu for drivers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you do that, you'll just get a lot of people going sick.

Fair point.

Personally, I can't see how a TOC wouldn't get sufficient levels of volunteers. Christmas isn't a big deal to everyone, and even to one person it isn't necessarily a big thing every single year for a multitude of reasons.

Agreed. I think it'd be hard to get enough volunteers for Christmas Day (and nor do I think there is any need for a service on Christmas Day, the roads are normally very quiet) but Boxing Day is different in both regards.

Not everyone hates working in retail at Christmas. If you're single, you might actually like being out with lots of people and having a laugh with colleagues. Indeed, the work environment might be something you actually miss at Christmas because you're at home, alone.

I live on my own, if I didn't do family stuff at Christmas I imagine I'd either go on holiday out of the UK or be very, very bored and thus quite happy to work.

And my impression of Boxing Day on Merseyrail was of a relatively laid-back, easy service with excess capacity (all trains 6-car) and happy people travelling. No early morning, no evening - probably an ideal shift

 

[dk1]

Most rely on volunteers and generous terms, such as double time plus a day in lieu for drivers.

Booking out at GA (ex-Anglia) was double time & a day in lieu (2 days if it was FDW) & if still vacancies then offer same to drivers who cannot get their hours off for the next shift & book them off with pay the following day (27th).

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if you didn't get enough volunteers would you force it? It think you grossly over estimate those eagerly willing to work it. Remember you need plenty of volunteers from all grades.

Provided it remains economic, as the price increases the number of volunteers will similarly increase.

 

[pitdiver]

We are now on the 29th December can we not lay this issue to rest for at least another year as the subject will be discussed until the cows come home but not for the next 12 months.
Thank you.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We are now on the 29th December can we not lay this issue to rest for at least another year as the subject will be discussed until the cows come home but not for the next 12 months.
Thank you.

If you don't want to discuss it, don't read the thread, and leave it to those of us who do (or to the moderators to make the decision to lock it if they wish)...

 

[bramling]

A strike during a leisure-hour service on Boxing Day is hardly going to knacker a lot, is it? I wouldn't worry.

That said, the one thing I don't get about volunteering (be it for Boxing Day, Sundays or whatever) is why it seems to offer the option to pull out at the last minute. Why is it not "volunteer a month ahead, then once you do you are contractually committed to work unless ill"?

It would still cause issues.

Where I am, we have a very residual presence on Christmas Day, basically a "staff presence" to keep an eye on the assets - fully reliant on volunteers.

As I write this, there's just been a load of trouble over it, because the two people who volunteered have been kicking up a fuss. The first one decided at the last minute he didn't want to do it, and thus didn't turn up. The second one did it, but then hassled everyone else crying pity that as he worked all Christmas it's only fair that someone should do his (rostered) shift now to give him a "belated Christmas".

Evidently not so happy to volunteer after all!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would still cause issues.

If anyone from Merseyrail is reading, *did* it cause issues? (It's a lot easier when we have an example!)

(I suppose you have got the scenario of the traincrew's other half insisting they work for the extra money at Christmas, but they don't want to...)

 

[Bellbell]

A strike during a leisure-hour service on Boxing Day is hardly going to knacker a lot, is it? I wouldn't worry.

That said, the one thing I don't get about volunteering (be it for Boxing Day, Sundays or whatever) is why it seems to offer the option to pull out at the last minute. Why is it not "volunteer a month ahead, then once you do you are contractually committed to work unless ill"?

It came to light recently that if you book sick for a Sunday (committed overtime) it doesn't go on your record because of course we don't get sick pay for Sundays. You can work your Sat/mon turns. That discovery hasn't been abused yet but it's open to it, clearly. My limited understanding is that committed overtime is actually not strictly legal but I'll hold my hands up and say I've never looked into it myself, that's just what I've picked up from various other people.

It's why I raised the issue of rail replacement services earlier - if a TOC cannot, at the last minute, run a Boxing Day service for whatever reason having earlier said they would, I don't know how they'd manage to accommodate the passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's why I raised the issue of rail replacement services earlier - if a TOC cannot, at the last minute, run a Boxing Day service for whatever reason having earlier said they would, I don't know how they'd manage to accommodate the passengers.

That might I suppose pose difficulties for a longer-distance operator, but in the case of Merseyrail it'd be somewhere between not bothering to travel (it was clearly nearly all leisure journeys), taking taxis or the bus.

Actually, speaking of the latter, if we had a more integrated view of public transport in our cities running rail replacement would probably be more use than running a random selection of other bus routes, even if actually running rail wasn't even considered.

 

[infobleep]

So if you didn't get enough volunteers would you force it? It think you grossly over estimate those eagerly willing to work it. Remember you need plenty of volunteers from all grades.

Southern seem to manage it.

 

[duncanp]

There are some parallels here with the dispute on the London Underground a few years back, which led to a series of Boxing Day strikes.

It all got sorted out eventually, but at a price.

I suspect that if a TOC wanted to operate anything like a comprehensive service on Boxing Day, then the cost of doing so would make the service uneconomic. However I can see that there may be more services on, certain lines on Boxing Day, if there is demand (eg shopping centres or sporting events) and if it is possible to negotiate an agreement with the unions.

However, there must be some demand for travel on Christmas Day and Boxing Day, because National Express and Megabus run a few services. How do they manage to get enough volunteers, and if so what sort of premium rates do they have to pay?

Incidentally, I passed through Kings Cross tube station the other day, and there was a map showing the services operated by London Underground on Christmas Day 1977.

Only about 50% of the stations in Zone 1 were open, and services that did run were only at a frequency of every 30 minutes, finishing at 16:30. Then a couple of years later the Christmas Day service was withdrawn, because of low demand. Well if you provide a c**p service people will not use it.

 

[Dave1987]

Provided it remains economic, as the price increases the number of volunteers will similarly increase.

The question still remains about if you don't get enough volunteers. If you start advertising a Boxing Day service, on the reliance you will get enough volunteers but you don't then what do you do? Increase the pay higher and higher or force it? Many many rail staff are concerned about where it ends. The railway already operates on Easter Sunday. Once you start running even a very limited service then once people are used to it they then start demanding a more extensive service. Then the focus goes to Christmas Day itself.

 

[Robertj21a]

So if you didn't get enough volunteers would you force it? It think you grossly over estimate those eagerly willing to work it. Remember you need plenty of volunteers from all grades.

In many parts of the UK you'd probably get swamped with volunteers. Probably a combination of non-Christian, single, partner working, fed up with relatives etc etc

 

[bramling]

In many parts of the UK you'd probably get swamped with volunteers. Probably a combination of non-Christian, single, partner working, fed up with relatives etc etc

I'm no religion, however I still like the idea of two relatively peaceful days.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm no religion, however I still like the idea of two relatively peaceful days.

Good for you, doesn't mean that others feel the same though.

 

[74A]

We are now on the 29th December can we not lay this issue to rest for at least another year as the subject will be discussed until the cows come home but not for the next 12 months.
Thank you.

Perhaps we should bring it out every time a franchise comes up for renewal.

 

[74A]

What did they do on Southern to enable boxing day working?

It must be in their contract. If it wasn't then the drivers would not have worked as they are not working any non-contractural overtime. The service has been running for so many years the drivers are used to it as part of their normal T&C.