The Beginning of the end for the Robin Hood Line, or a new less frequent era?

[nicolaboo]

From 7th September we will be reintroducing three evening peak services for Nottingham to Worksop via Mansfield - continuing to run all trains with three carriages, giving you more space to help you stay safe when travelling. Find out more: https://bit.ly/2ZwqKgt

 

[ChrisC]

Last weekend standing room only from Mansfield already

On the EMR website there is a seat finder tool where you can look up which trains are quieter. I see that on Saturdays every Worksop to Nottingham, train from lunchtime until about 5pm, are now showing as busy or crowded. Sure if safe travel and even a small amount of social distancing is to be maintained EMR will have to review the situation before December. Either longer trains or preferably a few additional trains between Mansfield Woodhouse and Nottingham are already needed well before the run up to Christmas. Saturday afternoons were always crowded even with a half hourly frequency.

 

[robbeech]

They’ve happily said “it is up to the passenger whether they feel it is safe to travel”

So, no buses in the timetable yet with less than 12 hours to go so no itineraries available using them, no way to reserve a seat on other operators using the itineraries (unless you get clever with it which most passengers won’t be able to do). I certainly won’t be surprised if the buses don’t show up.

Edit :
It appears they weren’t planning on adding them to the system for journey planners because there’s a pdf timetable.

Now I might be cynical but (as I told them) it does feel a bit like they’re keeping the buses lightly used by not allowing journey planners to use them to give them an excuse to get rid of the buses when they’re lightly loaded.

 

[WesternLancer]

They’ve happily said “it is up to the passenger whether they feel it is safe to travel”

So, no buses in the timetable yet with less than 12 hours to go so no itineraries available using them, no way to reserve a seat on other operators using the itineraries (unless you get clever with it which most passengers won’t be able to do). I certainly won’t be surprised if the buses don’t show up.

Edit :
It appears they weren’t planning on adding them to the system for journey planners because there’s a pdf timetable.

Now I might be cynical but (as I told them) it does feel a bit like they’re keeping the buses lightly used by not allowing journey planners to use them to give them an excuse to get rid of the buses when they’re lightly loaded.

That's rubbish - if the buses are an alternative they should be in the journey planner!

 

[ChrisC]

They’ve happily said “it is up to the passenger whether they feel it is safe to travel”

That may well be the case and I certainly wouldn’t want to travel on an overcrowded train, especially standing and having to wear a face mask.
However, with the frequency halved, I don’t think people will even have that choice if the trains become so full that passengers are not even able to board south of Mansfield.

 

[WesternLancer]

That may well be the case and I certainly wouldn’t want to travel on an overcrowded train, especially standing and having to wear a face mask.
However, with the frequency halved, I don’t think people will even have that choice if the trains become so full that passengers are not even able to board south of Mansfield.

Interesting to wonder if this is work commuting travel or off peak ' leisure' travel

 

[ChrisC]

Interesting to wonder if this is work commuting travel or off peak ' leisure' travel

It’s Saturday afternoon leisure travel. To be quite honest, even when they are running a normal full half hourly service, I try to avoid travelling on the Robin Hood Line towards Nottingham on Saturday afternoons. It’s even worse travelling out of Nottingham between 5pm and 8pm on Saturday. It seems to be a tradition for crowds of people from the ex coal mining communities to travel into Nottingham on Saturday afternoons for an afternoon of drinking. They then travel back early evening towards Kirkby in Ashfield, Mansfield, Shirebrook etc to spend the rest of the evening in their local pubs.

It can be very unpleasant for other passengers especially older people and families with children to use these trains on Saturdays. They are also not popular workings for the railway staff. There will be no social distancing which will be made far worse with a reduced timetable. It will not be nice for people just using the trains for shopping in Nottingham or other types of leisure travel. If I go out for the day on a longer journey on a Saturday, when I arrive back in Nottingham I tend to avoid the drunken mob on the Robin Hood Line and complete my journey by tram and bus instead.

 

[robbeech]

Update.

A shambles of the highest order.
No indication at the station that buses are being used.
Bus drives in 8L According to the timetable turns around in one go and leaves again without acknowledging that it might want to check for passengers.
Train comes past 2 minutes later at line speed with a platform with people close to the edge expecting it to stop. Zero audible warning from the train (i’d consider that appropriate but I’m not a train driver so not my call).
What an absolute farce.

 

[ashworth]

Update.

A shambles of the highest order.
No indication at the station that buses are being used.
Bus drives in 8L According to the timetable turns around in one go and leaves again without acknowledging that it might want to check for passengers.
Train comes past 2 minutes later at line speed with a platform with people close to the edge expecting it to stop. Zero audible warning from the train (i’d consider that appropriate but I’m not a train driver so not my call).
What an absolute farce.

I find it all very disappointing and quite sad really. Just when pre Coronavirus, after 20 years of appalling connections at Worksop, we get a much better service with 2tph from Northern, we now get the worst service we have ever had. With advertising and fare promotions there could have been some growth in passenger numbers north of Mansfield towards Sheffield, with much reduced journey times without the long wait at Worksop. Now both EMR and Northern are actually killing off any potential growth and will also discourage existing customers.

 

[ChrisC]

One month on from my previous post concerning overcrowding on Saturday afternoons on trains between Mansfield and Nottingham. I haven’t been on these trains because I have deliberately avoided travelling on this line due to overcrowding following the halving of train frequency. I now notice that the EMR seat finder tool is currently showing just about every train into Nottingham on Saturdays from late morning until early evening as crowded. This is before we start getting increased numbers travelling into Nottingham for Christmas shopping.
When EMR have restored nearly all of their timetables to previous levels I cannot understand why the Robin Hood Line is remaining only hourly at busy times like Saturdays.

 

[LowLevel]

One month on from my previous post concerning overcrowding on Saturday afternoons on trains between Mansfield and Nottingham. I haven’t been on these trains because I have deliberately avoided travelling on this line due to overcrowding following the halving of train frequency. I now notice that the EMR seat finder tool is currently showing just about every train into Nottingham on Saturdays from late morning until early evening as crowded. This is before we start getting increased numbers travelling into Nottingham for Christmas shopping.
When EMR have restored nearly all of their timetables to previous levels I cannot understand why the Robin Hood Line is remaining only hourly at busy times like Saturdays.

Amongst other problems a driver shortage is causing resourcing issues.

 

[Llandudno]

Amongst other problems a driver shortage is causing resourcing issues.

Are the remaining hourly services being strengthened to four/six cars to compensate?

 

[WesternLancer]

Are the remaining hourly services being strengthened to four/six cars to compensate?

am I correct in thinking that some of the station platforms are unable to take more than 3 cars in length?

if so short platforms and short staffing creates a combo that is not good.

 

[LowLevel]

Are the remaining hourly services being strengthened to four/six cars to compensate?

Almost all trains are running with 3 carriages instead of 2, which is mostly adequate (a class 153 coupled to a 156 or 158). 3 car class 170s are to be rostered to most services within the next couple of months.

 

[bunnahabhain]

The 0854 Nottingham to Mansfield and return is reinstated from December.

 

[ashworth]

The 0854 Nottingham to Mansfield and return is reinstated from December.

Is that the only train that is to return to the timetable in December? If so I do wonder if the Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse trains will ever return to restore the half hourly frequency between Mansfield and Nottingham. Restoring that one train to the timetable is not going to solve the current problem of Saturday afternoon overcrowding.

What concerns me even more, as pointed out in my earlier post, is that we are now without reasonable onward connections at both Nottingham and Worksop. The times of the remaining hourly train hardly connects with anything.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Is that the only train that is to return to the timetable in December? If so I do wonder if the Nottingham to Mansfield Woodhouse trains will ever return to restore the half hourly frequency between Mansfield and Nottingham. Restoring that one train to the timetable is not going to solve the current problem of Saturday afternoon overcrowding.

What concerns me even more, as pointed out in my earlier post, is that we are now without reasonable onward connections at both Nottingham and Worksop. The times of the remaining hourly train hardly connects with anything.

Who knows! It's a heavily subsidised route for those who do pay for a ticket. What surprises me is after almost a decade the number still appearing at Nottingham without a ticket and claiming to know nothing about having to buy one before they travel.

 

[robbeech]

Who knows! It's a heavily subsidised route for those who do pay for a ticket. What surprises me is after almost a decade the number still appearing at Nottingham without a ticket and claiming to know nothing about having to buy one before they travel.

They’re mostly trying it on. I’ve been to every station on that line and it’s generally more than clear from signage that the policy is in place. You will get the odd genuine case but sadly most will be trying it on and getting away with it most days.
The only exception I can think of is Mansfield in the up direction when the ticket office is closed. If you come from the car park on the up side there are no signs to say there is a ticket machine or office, and there are NO penalty fare signs that you pass or go near should you board the train anywhere near the front. Penalty fares from Mansfield in the up direction should not be issued, (but of course they are, unlawfully) although if the ticket office is open one would risk prosecution instead.

Generally speaking, I wouldn’t be surprised if the line never sees the second hourly service return, save for maybe a peak time extra, but we will have to see. Sheffield Gainsborough Central doesn’t seem likely to go ahead again for the foreseeable so the connections will remain appalling at both ends for a while.

The buses seem to be being used, not by many people but in keeping with regular passenger levels. They are at least in the timetable now. Something they “hadn’t considered. Yes that’s a good point we will look into that. Thanks.”
I suppose one of the potential issues with the buses are if people who CAN travel with flexibility decide to avoid the bus hour and go in the train hour (especially when there’s a bus/train connection) then passenger numbers for the bus will fall and EMR will likely use this as an excuse to get rid of the buses.

 

[WesternLancer]

They’re mostly trying it on. I’ve been to every station on that line and it’s generally more than clear from signage that the policy is in place. You will get the odd genuine case but sadly most will be trying it on and getting away with it most days.
The only exception I can think of is Mansfield in the up direction when the ticket office is closed. If you come from the car park on the up side there are no signs to say there is a ticket machine or office, and there are NO penalty fare signs that you pass or go near should you board the train anywhere near the front. Penalty fares from Mansfield in the up direction should not be issued, (but of course they are, unlawfully) although if the ticket office is open one would risk prosecution instead.

Generally speaking, I wouldn’t be surprised if the line never sees the second hourly service return, save for maybe a peak time extra, but we will have to see. Sheffield Gainsborough Central doesn’t seem likely to go ahead again for the foreseeable so the connections will remain appalling at both ends for a while.

The buses seem to be being used, not by many people but in keeping with regular passenger levels. They are at least in the timetable now. Something they “hadn’t considered. Yes that’s a good point we will look into that. Thanks.”
I suppose one of the potential issues with the buses are if people who CAN travel with flexibility decide to avoid the bus hour and go in the train hour (especially when there’s a bus/train connection) then passenger numbers for the bus will fall and EMR will likely use this as an excuse to get rid of the buses.

Points all well made.

 

[Llandudno]

If fare evasion is rife on the Worksop to Nottingham line, then patronage levels will be under recorded, giving rise to the reduction in frequency.

From recollection there are three entrances/exits from Nottingham station, not sure how often all three of them are manned and often the ticket barriers are left open.

 

[WesternLancer]

If fare evasion is rife on the Worksop to Nottingham line, then patronage levels will be under recorded, giving rise to the reduction in frequency.

From recollection there are three entrances/exits from Nottingham station, not sure how often all three of them are manned and often the ticket barriers are left open.

Very rare for the side entrances (via the footbridge which is a Right of Way) to be checked and this is part of the problem - regulars know this. I have worked with people before lock down who are well paid who take the attitude that if the conductor does not come though to sell a ticket they don't need to buy one.
It needs a regular Penalty Fare enforcement regime to change that culture I suspect.

 

[Qwerty133]

If fare evasion is rife on the Worksop to Nottingham line, then patronage levels will be under recorded, giving rise to the reduction in frequency.

From recollection there are three entrances/exits from Nottingham station, not sure how often all three of them are manned and often the ticket barriers are left open.

There is a good chance that some of those who worked for CT/EMT when they were as good as encouraging fare evasion on certain routes in order to falsify passenger numbers in order to wrongly prioritise certain routes/areas are still working for EMR (or other Abellio operated TOCs) at some level, so this may be those people using the technique again in order to get what they want. EMT were certainly still using such tactics up until this time last year with regards to artificially reducing the official passenger numbers at the stations between Nuneaton and Leicester (by not providing TVMs, regularly closing the ticket offices, and seemingly telling the gate line staff at Leicester to advise passengers arriving from those stations not to purchase a ticket on arrival).

 

[bunnahabhain]

Very rare for the side entrances (via the footbridge which is a Right of Way) to be checked and this is part of the problem - regulars know this. I have worked with people before lock down who are well paid who take the attitude that if the conductor does not come though to sell a ticket they don't need to buy one.
It needs a regular Penalty Fare enforcement regime to change that culture I suspect.

There is a good chance that some of those who worked for CT/EMT when they were as good as encouraging fare evasion on certain routes in order to falsify passenger numbers in order to wrongly prioritise certain routes/areas are still working for EMR (or other Abellio operated TOCs) at some level, so this may be those people using the technique again in order to get what they want. EMT were certainly still using such tactics up until this time last year with regards to artificially reducing the official passenger numbers at the stations between Nuneaton and Leicester (by not providing TVMs, regularly closing the ticket offices, and seemingly telling the gate line staff at Leicester to advise passengers arriving from those stations not to purchase a ticket on arrival).

Presumably they were also handing out tin foil hats to folk as well? If you think TOCs could be so organised enough to artificially suppress passenger numbers as opposed you must live in cloud cuckoo land!

 

[Llandudno]

There is a good chance that some of those who worked for CT/EMT when they were as good as encouraging fare evasion on certain routes in order to falsify passenger numbers in order to wrongly prioritise certain routes/areas are still working for EMR (or other Abellio operated TOCs) at some level, so this may be those people using the technique again in order to get what they want. EMT were certainly still using such tactics up until this time last year with regards to artificially reducing the official passenger numbers at the stations between Nuneaton and Leicester (by not providing TVMs, regularly closing the ticket offices, and seemingly telling the gate line staff at Leicester to advise passengers arriving from those stations not to purchase a ticket on arrival).

Why on earth would they want to do that..?

 

[bunnahabhain]

Why on earth would they want to do that..?

They wouldn't...

 

[Andy Pacer]

EMT were certainly still using such tactics up until this time last year with regards to artificially reducing the official passenger numbers at the stations between Nuneaton and Leicester (by not providing TVMs, regularly closing the ticket offices, and seemingly telling the gate line staff at Leicester to advise passengers arriving from those stations not to purchase a ticket on arrival).

Did that really happen? What would they gain from making Hinckley, Narborough and South Wigston looking poorer performers?

 

[WesternLancer]

Presumably they were also handing out tin foil hats to folk as well? If you think TOCs could be so organised enough to artificially suppress passenger numbers as opposed you must live in cloud cuckoo land!

Well, in my case I don't think that, nor have a tin foil hat - but I do know that the colleague who worked next to me and used the RHL daily (before lock down) would often say "I've not had to buy a ticket again today - no one came round to check on the train", probably part of the reason he did not have a season ticket I think - and there is a problem for EMT/EMR as to check the side gate exit at Nottm you can only actually check the foot of the stairs up from the platforms (because the bridge and its entrances and exits are Rights of Way anyone can use without a ticket), so the stair foots are wide and have a flight either side, so each island platform (there are 3) needs 2 people at the bottom of each flight so that would be 12 staff in addition to the staff required at the actual concourse gate line.

I'm not saying on board staff should check all tickets, at busy times that was not possible. But I thus believe there is much fare evasion on the RHL.

I can't comment on the Hinckley route but I was surprised to find not ticket machines when I was last at Hinckley - like Burton it's a station that is served by XC but staffed by EMR. I used it on a sat eve, only one occasion but Saturday eve travelers boarded the train, XC did not do a ticket check on that occasion, and there was no barrier check. Reminds me that because a)I'm honest and b) I was traveling beyond Leicester, I went to the ticket office at Leicester to buy my ticket stating origin as Hinckley - but there wasn't a queue of other people who had also boarded at Hinckley that I saw....and I doubt 100% of them had bought a ticket on line before getting on the train!

Also when EMT were on a management contract or whatever it was doesn't that mean that revenue maximization is not really as incentivized as it would otherwise be?

 

[Qwerty133]

Did that really happen? What would they gain from making Hinckley, Narborough and South Wigston looking poorer performers?

I suspect in this particular case it would be futile as I would hope that the DfT have now caught on to the tactic but there is no question that the former Central Trains management team used it to great success in order to influence the allocation of units following the franchise being broken up. The CT management team who largely worked in the west of the region and who therefore were mostly hoping to work for LM following the split saw the split as an opportunity to reduce the levels of crowding in the west (and therefore improve the public perception of the service and reduce complaint levels making their jobs easier) of the region by fabricating various data relating to passenger numbers in the east of the region so that a larger proportion of the stock would be allocated to LM compared to it's true proportion of passengers. One of the many techniques used by CT management was cracking down substantially harder on fare evasion on the routes in the west midlands whilst in many ways making it easier to avoid paying in the east of the region in order to ensure the proportion of passengers paying for their journeys was substantially higher in the west of the region compared to the east of the region and therefore the relative ticket sales appeared to suggest a greater proportion of CT passengers were in the west of the region than was actually the case.
While I can't see the DfT falling for the trick again I cannot see any other explanation as to why EMT regularly used to leave Hinckley and Narborough unstaffed during their supposed opening hours (despite having several staff in the Leicester ticket office which they were staffed from), why stations of that size never had ticket machines fitted, and why without fail upon arriving from those stations at Leicester I and other were told not to bother purchasing a ticket for several years by multiple different members of staff (who were largely excellent at the rest of their jobs and asked people arriving from other stations to pay).

 

[Andy Pacer]

Interesting. I hadn't realised the Leicester ticket office had responsibility for relief at Narborough and Hinckley.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Well, in my case I don't think that, nor have a tin foil hat - but I do know that the colleague who worked next to me and used the RHL daily (before lock down) would often say "I've not had to buy a ticket again today - no one came round to check on the train", probably part of the reason he did not have a season ticket I think - and there is a problem for EMT/EMR as to check the side gate exit at Nottm you can only actually check the foot of the stairs up from the platforms (because the bridge and its entrances and exits are Rights of Way anyone can use without a ticket), so the stair foots are wide and have a flight either side, so each island platform (there are 3) needs 2 people at the bottom of each flight so that would be 12 staff in addition to the staff required at the actual concourse gate line.

I'm not saying on board staff should check all tickets, at busy times that was not possible. But I thus believe there is much fare evasion on the RHL.

I can't comment on the Hinckley route but I was surprised to find not ticket machines when I was last at Hinckley - like Burton it's a station that is served by XC but staffed by EMR. I used it on a sat eve, only one occasion but Saturday eve travelers boarded the train, XC did not do a ticket check on that occasion, and there was no barrier check. Reminds me that because a)I'm honest and b) I was traveling beyond Leicester, I went to the ticket office at Leicester to buy my ticket stating origin as Hinckley - but there wasn't a queue of other people who had also boarded at Hinckley that I saw....and I doubt 100% of them had bought a ticket on line before getting on the train!

Also when EMT were on a management contract or whatever it was doesn't that mean that revenue maximization is not really as incentivized as it would otherwise be?

The majority of passengers I find will pay when challenged, and a penalty fare scheme doesn't challenge anybody especially if they're aware that enforcement is sporadic and if they're onboard for 3 minutes they all just need to be at the opposite end as the guard to avoid paying their fare.

Unfortunately over the years the number of Assistant Ticket Examiners (ATE) nationwide has been reduced in favour of TVMs and penalty fare schemes and as far as I can see all this does is achieve a reduction in the headcount and salary cost. I don't feel a penalty fare scheme has any degree of success unless its enforced every time, on every train.

I think the problem with ensuring fares are collected is a manpower issue, a single guard on a 3 or 4 car full and standing service isn't going to physically be able to see all passengers, a guard and ATE stands a better chance, and a guard, ATE and selection of TVMs and/or booking offices at the busiest stations stands the best chance.

The only winners from penalty fare schemes to me seem to be Schiedt & Bachmann and their salesmen.