The Discount Airline Model Is Coming for Europe’s Railways

[InterCity:125]

If you want to be uncormfortable and have to arrive long before the service departs (ouigo) then do it on a plane where at least it’ll be over with sooner.

 

[ooo]

The question for me is why they sell tickets "without a guaranteed space". If they simply sold as many tickets as there are seats, they would at least be tolerable.

It means passengers are still able to travel even if all the seats are taken

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not the first time I've heard TLK referred to as cheap and not at all cheerful.. are they really that bad?!

They have 4-a-side compartments (two middle seats) which is about the most rubbish seating arrangement possible, and I include in that UK 3+2 which at least only has one totally rubbish seat per row rather than two.

 

[rg177]

TLK just sounds like my single experience of PolRegio where I was sat amongst a bunch of drunk blokes at 10am who stole my headphones and insinuated they were going to physically harm me. Worst journey ever

 

[CC 72100]

Ouch, sounds like a cramped experience then - seat or no seat!

 

[CMS]

If you want to be uncormfortable and have to arrive long before the service departs (ouigo) then do it on a plane where at least it’ll be over with sooner.

It seems to be working though, Ouigo’s passenger numbers went up 53%, more routes have been added and Ouigo now serves city centres, better than most airports in France (apart from Montpelier Sud de France and Tourcoing). Domestic air traffic in France is on the decline so it seems to be a strong competitor.

Personally, when I have used Ouigo I have not found it particularly uncomfortable (no more so than Ryanair) and the 30 min rule seems to be feasible as demand is so high. The last Ouigo I travelled on had 1200 people onboard, which did make it slightly claustrophobic though! I wonder if an open access operator would/could attempt to replicate the model in the UK?

 

[InterCity:125]

Ouigo now serves city centres, better than most airports in France (apart from Montpelier Sud de France and Tourcoing).

Aix en province is poorly served with the station being half way between the city and Marseille.

 

[AverageTD]

Correct me if I’m wrong but SNCF are loosing vast amounts of money through TGV as they spend millions on new high speed lines in which services don’t have the demand to make it back. Ouigo was another attempt to try get more people on the train over plane and I think it’s working (slightly)

 

[SHD]

Aix en province is poorly served with the station being half way between the city and Marseille.

Many stations on high-speed lines in France are located away from cities. You can criticise the whole concept but it is not specific to OUIGO, it has been a staple of TGV services since 1981 and the opening of Macon-Loché and Le Creusot TGV. Besides, although it has a lovely old town and is a tourist magnet, Aix-en-Provence is a small city, quite dormant and with poor conventional rail connections; and the eponymous TGV station serves the wider Northern part of the Marseille metropolis. In addition running the HSL closer to Aix would have been impractical (look at the terrain already) and ruinous.

 

[BRX]

Internal trips aren't where the railways need to compete more with cheap airline - we effectively have it already in the UK with advance fares. It's international trips and particularly those which run through more than two countries where things need to improve. It's not just about the fares but ease of booking and what happens when connections are missed. Most people are not confident to book multileg international rail trips whereas they will do so by air if the booking site does it for them. Things are improving slowly but still a long way to go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many stations on high-speed lines in France are located away from cities

So in love are the French with "l'automobile" that that works there pretty well. I'm not too sure it would work *as* well in the UK other than for commuters - certainly East Midlands Parkway was an utter flop.

 

[SHD]

So in love are the French with "l'automobile" that that works there pretty well. I'm not too sure it would work *as* well in the UK other than for commuters - certainly East Midlands Parkway was an utter flop.

Very true. Yet it also has much to do with political choices and geographical constraints.

One of the core ideas behind the Paris-Lyon TGV was to build a railway that would cut through as short as possible between Paris and Lyon, and avoid intermediate cities. Between Paris and Lyon lies the Morvan, its mountains, its abbeys, its emptiness, and its excellent meat. These two cities have seen significant trade and transit since Roman times and a look at the map will show that the two historical railway lines (mostly) avoided the Morvan, but at the cost of a significant détour. (Paris-Lyon through the Imperial line, which goes through Dijon, is 512 km, but less than 430 through the HSL).

Cutting through as short as possible meant going through significantly difficult terrain with the added constraint of avoiding tunnels. Obviously, equivalent constraints were put on the power capabilities of the rolling stock. Hence the roller-coaster profile of the Paris-Lyon HSL (35 permille gradients).

The stations at Mâcon and Le Creusot TGV were built, quite reluctantly, after negotiations with local politicians.

The concept of cutting through as short as possible prevailed for the next HSLs built :

- LGV Atlantique - going through the vast and dull fields of the Beauce, where there is no city of importance anyway. Vendôme TGV only has commuting traffic. (As an anecdote, quite a few commuters were SNCF executives - who were happy with the country life and the zero-fare, 40-minute, first class high speed commute to the office, especially between 1998 and 2012, when SNCF headquarters were just above Montparnasse).

- LGV nord - as short as possible between Paris and Lille. Serving Amiens would have been useful, but would have irritated Saint-Quentin and would have made it impossible to reach Lille in just under an hour . As a result, the famous Haute-Picardie TGV station was built - nicknamed Beetroot TGV).

 

[30907]

They have 4-a-side compartments (two middle seats) which is about the most rubbish seating arrangement possible, and I include in that UK 3+2 which at least only has one totally rubbish seat per row rather than two.

4-a-side compartments were standard on SR and WR (and SNCF and no doubt more) - and in the UK with rather less width. Not that I am keen on them!

 

[Cloud Strife]

They have 4-a-side compartments (two middle seats) which is about the most rubbish seating arrangement possible, and I include in that UK 3+2 which at least only has one totally rubbish seat per row rather than two.

It really is absolutely dire, especially given that many Polish people have an irrational fear of open windows, even in the height of summer. Add the tendency of older people to prepare hideously smelly food for the train, and you've got a truly unbearable situation. Anyone nostalgic for compartment stock would soon change their mind on a several hour TLK journey on a Friday or Sunday afternoon. There's also evidence that PKP Intercity aren't cleaning the TLK stock properly, so it's a truly disgusting and horrible experience.

http://kolej.darlex.pl/pociagi/polska/podroznik/podroznik17.jpg gives an idea as to how these TLK units look, though this looks suspiciously clean.

 

[Adlington]

, but ordinary 1st/2nd class compartment carriages are terrible, with 8 people in one tiny compartment.

All 1st class compartments have 6 seats. Some, definitely not all, 2nd class compartments also have 6 seats.

They also sell "tickets without a guaranteed seat", so you end up with packed corridors.

Not unheard of elsewhere, including UK.

 

[duesselmartin]

All 1st class compartments have 6 seats. Some, definitely not all, 2nd class compartments also have 6 seats.

Not unheard of elsewhere, including UK.

Just had to think of the UKs XC services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just had to think of the UKs XC services.

I think TPE, XC and the London commuter operators sell quite a lot of tickets where you are not only not guaranteed a seat, you are pretty much guaranteed *not* to have a seat.

 

[MarcVD]

4-a-side compartments were standard on SR and WR (and SNCF and no doubt more) - and in the UK with rather less width. Not that I am keen on them!

Yes, SNCF had it. Corail stock, compartiments, 4 seats a side. Did once Limoges to Paris in such a car, pretty awful. I ended up spending most of the time standing in the corridor. Don't know whether those horrible things still exist, but if yes, just avoid them at all costs.

 

[Cloud Strife]

All 1st class compartments have 6 seats. Some, definitely not all, 2nd class compartments also have 6 seats.

It's true, but it's a real lottery as to what actually shows up. 1st class is really no better - I took it a few weeks ago out of desperation to get home faster, and regretted it instantly. The only good side is that they only sell tickets for the amount of seats there are in 1st class, no more, so the corridors at least aren't crowded.

There also seems to be a very clear tendency for TLK trains to take strange routes based on nothing more than political interference.

 

[BRX]

At least with compartment stock you aren't trapped like you are in a window seat with 2+2 seating; anyone can get in and out without having to ask others to move. Although it also means no table of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least with compartment stock you aren't trapped like you are in a window seat with 2+2 seating; anyone can get in and out without having to ask others to move. Although it also means no table of course.

And the same thing is true if you have 2+2 non-compartment stock with mini tables rather than full size, this arrangement is quite common in mainland Europe e.g. the Belgian Bombardier LHCS and EMUs.

 

[Adlington]

1st class is really no better - I took it a few weeks ago out of desperation to get home faster

I didn't know 1st class passengers on TLK get home faster then the proles in the 2nd class.

 

[sprunt]

I didn't know 1st class passengers on TLK get home faster then the proles in the 2nd class.

Perhaps it's another example of the airline model coming to the railways - keeping all the plebs on the train until the first class passengers have got off?

 

[Adlington]

THE European alliance of new rail entrants, AllRail, has called for changes to the way new entrants have to compete against incumbents

“While we welcome new innovation and affordable train fares, AllRail’s rail operator members believe that passengers benefit the most if there is fair and sustainable competition,” AllRail says in a statement. “Unfortunately, we do not think that this is the case.”

It says the Ouigo and Eva brands have enjoyed a major head-start, as the French and Spanish domestic markets will not be open to independent newcomers until 2020 and with incumbents already having large pools of high-speed rolling stock, AllRail says it is much easier for an in-house subsidiary to acquire second-hand, amortised trains than it is for an independent newcomer, which has to purchase new trains.

AllRail says in-house subsidiaries are also taking valuable slots at railway stations and maintenance facilities due to “Grandfather Rights,” leaving others to “make do with the leftovers.” Ouigo and Izy are offering low fares whilst being subsidised by state incumbents with record levels of debt. “This is tantamount to state aid and a major market distortion,” AllRail says.

AllRail’s members have called for changes including:

• Requiring incumbents to rent their underutilised fleet to independent newcomers, so that a leasing market can begin
• equal financing opportunities, with the same leasing terms as the in-house subsidiaries
• non-discriminatory access to service and heavy-maintenance facilities, in accordance with the recent EU recast, and
• a ban on scrapping trains, with incumbents instead offering surplus first generation high-speed trains for leasing, especially when they are already authorised to operate in the same markets.

https://www.railjournal.com/passeng...anges-to-stop-low-cost-high-speed-monopolies/

 

[Birkonian]

Italo isn't really a low-cost, though, it's an open access operator operating on a very similar basis to the incumbent.

Flix has a few train pairs. Ouigo similarly.

Mind you, easyJet and BA aren't much different these days in the products they offer...the orange team can be better on quite a few fronts as well.

I've done Ouigo from Tourcoing to Le Mans and return to Lille Flandres. I think it was €20 return and an enjoyable experience. I've done Ouibus a few times too. Lille to Bruges return is €11 and both quicker and cheaper than by train. I done that one starting in Bruges also.

 

[Chester1]

I thought I would restart this thread!

I have booked Cologne to Berlin Flixtrain ticket for €15 and seat reservation for €4. They started the service earlier this year after the previous open access service stopped. It's really an addition to their coach network rather than an airline style system. They run 2tpd on 3 routes: Cologne-Hamburg, Cologne-Berlin and Stuttgart-Berlin (via Frankfurt). I like DB but their cheapest ticket that afternoon or evening (in a few weeks) was 3 times the price. It be interesting to compare them.