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The end of the Lancashire & Yorkshire meant the end of northern economic independence

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Monkey Magic

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An interesting article and arguments.

In this brief history, Dr Stephen Caunce describes how a railway company helped to make England's industrial north – and how its end presaged the region's economic decline.

The development of the internal transportation network within and between England's four main northern conurbations is, as usual, distinctive and misunderstood.

The mosaic map created by the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway Company (L&YR), and on display in various stations, shows only a part of the overall system – but it does indicate its unfocussed, decentralised character. Uniquely among major English companies, this company never built a line to London. Adapting this system to modern needs has rarely worked out well over the last century, culminating in the never-ending west coast line upgrade saga, and its strange and controversial child, High Speed 2 (HS2).

The L&YR is especially interesting as the only powerful and long-lasting organisation which emerged spontaneously to co-ordinate activity across these conurbation boundaries. Its profits reflected regional economic performance, and it responded accordingly, always paying a dividend, and often a very healthy one.

http://www.citymetric.com/transport...meant-end-northern-economic-independence-1408
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway also had a sizable North Sea fleet. Look at some of the destinations that are shown in the glass sectional panels that have been put back into the restored canopy of Manchester Victoria railway station.
 

Monkey Magic

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The Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway also had a sizable North Sea fleet. Look at some of the destinations that are shown in the glass sectional panels that have been put back into the restored canopy of Manchester Victoria railway station.

The article notes this quite well:

The L&YR also ran steamship services from Liverpool to Drogheda, and Hull to Zeebrugge, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Copenhagen, and Hamburg. With 28 ships in 1914 it was the biggest shipowner among British railway companies; five more ships linked Fleetwood to Belfast and Derry in a joint operation with the LNWR.
 

Darren R

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I'm not sure what point the author thinks he's making in the article. (In fact, quite frankly, I think he's a bit all over the place!) I don't see what part the 1923 Grouping played in the slow and long-term decline of traditional industries in the north, and I certainly don't see how the demise of the L&Y "meant the end of northern economic independence." He cites no evidence to support his statements, and presents what are no more than his own personal assumptions. "The usual guiding logic of regionality and operational efficiency was set aside," he says. "The London routes to the north, provided by other companies, were assumed to have primacy." Assumed by who? On what basis does he make this assertion?

He seems to be implying that it was all part of some huge conspiracy by London-based Governments to deliberately run-down the Northern economy over several decades. "It meant the end of northern economic independence, and the region’s re-orientation towards becoming a London satellite zone, a move which the Thatcher government pretty much completed." Quite. What David Lloyd George started, Margaret Thatcher completed. They make unlikely bed-fellows.

There are too many errors in the article to list, but I think most railway historians would disagree with his statement that "uniquely among major English companies, this company [the L&Y] never built a line to London." The North Eastern Railway, with over 1,700 route miles, readily springs to mind. In many ways, the NER was very similar to the L&YR, and was equally well run with a similarly pioneering attitude towards adopting new technology.

The author talks of how "parliament forcibly grouped most lines into four huge new entities." This is true, of course, but irrelevant to his argument since the L&YR had already agreed voluntarily to merge with the L&NWR. In the event, of course, this merger was largely pointless, but the two Boards didn't know that at the time they started discussions. Merger talks between the two started because those who sat in the Manchester Victoria Boardroom could see that the fiancial situation was worsening and that the L&Y could not survive long-term as an independent entity. Not only was there a huge backlog of infrastructure works as a result of the First World War, but also passenger and freight traffic were both starting to decline. In the case of the Lanky, it was a hard-nosed commercial decision by the Board and nothing to do with being "forcibly grouped" by Parliament.

The fortunes of the railways in general mirrored the fortunes of the country at the time, that's why the Grouping had to happen. Despite what the author seems to be trying to say, if Parliament hadn't acted when it did to create the 'Big Four,' the railways would have been in a far worse position subsequently.
 

Greenback

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Does he mention anywhere that the end of the Taff Vale Railway resulted in the decline of the Welsh coal industry and the end of Welsh economic independence?
 

Monkey Magic

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You could probably make the same argument - the loss of regional railways, in favour of London-centric railway companies, resulted in a shift in emphasis away from those regions, damaging their long term economic interests and making them subordinate to the interests of London.

Where as Wales was front and centre for the TVR, for the GWR not so much.
 

Senex

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The author talks of how "parliament forcibly grouped most lines into four huge new entities." This is true, of course, but irrelevant to his argument since the L&YR had already agreed voluntarily to merge with the L&NWR. In the event, of course, this merger was largely pointless, but the two Boards didn't know that at the time they started discussions. Merger talks between the two started because those who sat in the Manchester Victoria Boardroom could see that the fiancial situation was worsening and that the L&Y could not survive long-term as an independent entity. Not only was there a huge backlog of infrastructure works as a result of the First World War, but also passenger and freight traffic were both starting to decline. In the case of the Lanky, it was a hard-nosed commercial decision by the Board and nothing to do with being "forcibly grouped" by Parliament.

With regard to the first sentence, there was quite some debate before the decision to go for the four companies as they actually came about was taken. But it had become clear even before the war that something was going to have to be done with the railway companies and the L&Y had arleady entered into a closer working agreement with the LNW, which had done the same with the Midland. Similar agreements were being made on the eastern side of the country. These agreements were to an extent a substitute for the amalgamations that parliament would still not allow at that stage. After the war the politicians changed their minds and forced the very comings together they had strongly opposed so very few years before.

I'm not sure that anyone could have predicted at the time just how London-centric the LMS and the LNE would become and the extent to which the neglect of cross-country routes and the cross-England main lines of the North of England would develop (affecting of course particularly the routes of the former Lancashire & Yorkshire and North Eastern companies, the two great North of England companies).
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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One must remember the vast amount of coal that was carried by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railways in its area. Coal at the time was the fuel that drove much of the industries of the region and there were large coal deposits for the collieries to extract.
 

Greenback

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Coal output was its peak in 1913 in South Wales if my memory serves. I can't remember if it was the same for the UK as a whole, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were regional variations.

Where there was money to be made, I'm sure that the more London focused companies would still have wanted to make it, and there was money in coal for many years after the grouping. Yet I do feel that the regional companies would have concentrated on their own areas more effectively than the larger concerns. Of course, those larger concerns were felt to be more economic at the time.
 

ChiefPlanner

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You could probably make the same argument - the loss of regional railways, in favour of London-centric railway companies, resulted in a shift in emphasis away from those regions, damaging their long term economic interests and making them subordinate to the interests of London.

Where as Wales was front and centre for the TVR, for the GWR not so much.


I think you will find the GWR was mightily pleased to get hold of the Welsh independant lines - and vigorously set out to rationalise duplication and to invest in ports and larger wagons etc. Rebuilding engines to "standard" design and withdrawing some of the lesser desirable coaching stock etc. However the slump in trade from 1925 - 1926 and the horrible years to at least 1936 clouded the image - but this London based company kept a lot of faith in the country / principality of Wales.

Do not quite see this L+Y fall+ decline of the North West. There were bigger external as well as regional issues at play (like the decline of King Cotton)
 

Darren R

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...Do not quite see this L+Y fall+ decline of the North West. There were bigger external as well as regional issues at play (like the decline of King Cotton)

The author of the article seems to be missing that point (curiously, since he's a historian.) Traditional railway traffic was starting to decline because traditional industries were starting to decline, and with this, railway finances began to deteriorate. As you say, the cotton industry in Lancashire was on the wain, losing out to competition both from Europe, North America and increasingly from the Empire by the 1920s, and this was hardly unique to cotton. Passenger receipts weren't as healthy as they had been either, as the train was no longer the only travel option available anymore.

Even if the First World War had not happened, some sort of grouping was inevitable purely as a result of market forces. Small companies could no longer finance the improvements and investment they needed, and (like the L&Y) would have joined forces with others to form larger companies. It was nothing to do with London becoming predominant. With or without Parliament, the Taff Vale, Furness, Hull & Barnsley et al were doomed as independent entities.
 

RichmondCommu

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I'd be interested to know when the first lines started to close anywhere outside of London as I'm not aware that there were any closures until the mid 1930's.

Stations are a different matter though and even in London several stations didn't make it to the start of the 20th century due to competition from other modes of transport.
 

Monkey Magic

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Bideford, Westward Ho! and Appledore Railway? Closed 1917. I think there are a couple of others that closed during WW1.

The impact of 1929 can not be understated in terms of the long term future of the railways.
 

Senex

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I'd be interested to know when the first lines started to close anywhere outside of London as I'm not aware that there were any closures until the mid 1930's.

There have been closures since the very early days of the railways. (For instance, Great Chesterford to Six Mile Bottom was a significant length closed in 1851.) But uncertainty about the legal position meant that for a long time companies found it easier to reduce services to a bare minimum rather than withdraw them altogether. Nevertheless, some closures did continue. The real closure programme began at the end of the 1920s -- see publications like "Passengers No More".
 
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