The ethics of train strikes

[Schweir]

Do you think train strikes are ethical?

The following reasons may want to be considered:
- People missing out on important events (e.g funerals) due to the often late notice of strikes
- Strikes seeming to impact the working class disproportionately due the working class often being more dependent on trains to attend work / other events
- Various economic impacts (people having to make alternative transport plans at a greater cost / people losing wages at work as they cannot attend)
- Varous social impacts (e.g stress / mental health / having to take annual leave from work)

 

[Gloster]

Do you think it is ethical to fail to pay employees a proper wage?

 

[Schweir]

Do you think it is ethical to fail to pay employees a proper wage?

"A proper wage"

 

[Chat Moss]

So Railway employees should basically slaves to the general public?

Many workers have seen wages grow by 20-30% in the last few years railway worker pay has nt budged.

 

[Bantamzen]

So Railway employees should basically slaves to the general public?

Many workers have seen wages grow by 20-30% in the last few years railway worker pay has nt budged.

And before that? Come on we all know that wages in parts of the railway industry rose pretty well in the years before covid, something no-one seems to acknowledge here. During the covid restrictions yes rail staff did not get rises, but their jobs were secured by the government and they didn't have to suffer a 20% loss on being put on furlough. So you know, swings and roundabouts. I have no issues with people wanting a reasonable wage, but let's be blunt here many unions (including mine) went into disputes wanting rises at least in line with inflation at it's peak, sometimes even above. This despite the fact the causes for the massive increase in inflation were completely beyond our control and the economy was in freefall. So inflation matching rises were for the most part never going to happen, let alone in an industry that is failing.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you think train strikes are ethical?

Yes, strikes are ethically sound and the right to strike is an important counterweight in a capitalist society.

 

[Davester50]

Do you think train strikes are ethical?

Yes. Everyone has the right to withdraw labour if it has a legal mandate.
Do you think it's ethical that to get a strike mandate you need a minimum turn out, unlike the MPs who can be elected with less than 50% turn out?

 

[coxxy]

their jobs were secured by the government and they didn't have to suffer a 20% loss on being put on furlough. So you know, swings and roundabouts.

It's worth noting though, that the people furloughed were not setting alarms for 2am to go to work. I would have loved 4 minths furloughed, the 20% would quicky be made back by not driving to work and back each day.

This whole rhetoric of the government securing railway jobs is awful. What actually happened, was people went to work, as normal, because they were needed.

 

[michael74]

And before that? Come on we all know that wages in parts of the railway industry rose pretty well in the years before covid, something no-one seems to acknowledge here. During the covid restrictions yes rail staff did not get rises, but their jobs were secured by the government and they didn't have to suffer a 20% loss on being put on furlough. So you know, swings and roundabouts. I have no issues with people wanting a reasonable wage, but let's be blunt here many unions (including mine) went into disputes wanting rises at least in line with inflation at it's peak, sometimes even above. This despite the fact the causes for the massive increase in inflation were completely beyond our control and the economy was in freefall. So inflation matching rises were for the most part never going to happen, let alone in an industry that is failing.

NHS Nurses have got a pay rise, none of them were furloughed and they got a good pay rise before COVID.

 

[Undiscovered]

Do you think train strikes are ethical?

Do you think it's ethical that, rather than addressing the continued slide of this country into stagnation, bankruptcy and the decreasing standards of living for a large part of the population, the government persists in the fundamental exploitation and demonisation of the working classes to further the growth of the top 1%, gaming and manipulating the system to their own ends, all while spreading divisive lies and misinformation by an increasingly politically charged and controlled media?

 

[Bantamzen]

It's worth noting though, that the people furloughed were not setting alarms for 2am to go to work. I would have loved 4 minths furloughed, the 20% would quicky be made back by not driving to work and back each day.

This whole rhetoric of the government securing railway jobs is awful. What actually happened, was people went to work, as normal, because they were needed.

You would have loved a 20% pay cut? Really? Would you have equally loved it if you worked a minimum wage job?

NHS Nurses have got a pay rise, none of them were furloughed and they got a good pay rise before COVID.

What has this got anything to do with anything?

Honestly these two comments tell me all I need to know.

 

[berwicksfinest]

What is it with pay rises ??

More over its the conditions, our colleagues fought for, the government think they can trample over, because they can.

 

[Carlisle]

It's worth noting though, that the people furloughed were not setting alarms for 2am to go to work.

It was a mixed bag on the railway, some still had to do full shifts at ungodly hours, some got spare from home or early finishes & a few unfortunate one like SWR caterers lost their jobs .

 

[Krokodil]

often late notice of strikes

Unions have to give two weeks notice of strikes. That's 13.5 days more notice than operators have to give when they zap a train because they don't employ enough staff.

Strikes seeming to impact the working class disproportionately due the working class often being more dependent on trains to attend work / other events

Hasn't a long-standing criticism of rail subsidies been that they primarily benefit the middle classes because the working classes use buses?

Various economic impacts

Perhaps the government needs to consider the economic impact of failing to offer an acceptable set of T&Cs. They've spent more fighting this than it would have cost to settle for 4% with no strings.

Do you think that it is ethical to ban fixed/rolling rest day patterns that allow employees to plan some semblance of a family life into the otherwise difficult life of a shift worker?

 

[Darandio]

- People missing out on important events (e.g funerals) due to the often late notice of strikes

14 days to me seems like a reasonable timescale to make alternative arrangements if needed.

 

[skyhigh]

"A proper wage"

I think that says everything as regards to the motivation behind starting this thread.

 

[northwichcat]

Many workers have seen wages grow by 20-30% in the last few years railway worker pay has nt budged.

During the COVID pandemic only 1/3rd of the population was better off and some of the people who were better off didn't receive pay rises. They were better off as they spent less. The majority of the population were either made redundant or put on furlough.

The minimum wage increased by almost 10% for over 23s this year. Many people saw a payrise because of it. However, those already earning above £10.42 an hour already generally haven't seen a pay rise in the region of 10% and many of those getting the 10% pay rise hadn't seen a pay rise since 2019.

While I don't think unskilled workers should catch up the pay of skilled workers, be careful quoting stats from tabloid headlines. There's a large number of people on the minimum wage so any average pay increase will take into account large increases to the minimum wage. Suggesting most have seen pay rises of 20-30% is rubbish. If you want a 30% pay rise in five years then get promoted or train to do a more highly skilled role.

 

[michael74]

You would have loved a 20% pay cut? Really? Would you have equally loved it if you worked a minimum wage job?


What has this got anything to do with anything?

Honestly these two comments tell me all I need to know.

Because all the negative impacts that you listed also occured when Nurses went on strike, so why are you not talking about them, and the Nurses got a pay rise without loosing any terms and conditions. So how do this tell you all you need to know?

 

[XIX7007177]

Is it ethical for management to get a pay rise with no change to terms and conditions but not give the same to the rest of the staff?

 

[Schweir]

I think that says everything as regards to the motivation behind starting this thread.

Not at all, just surprising people do not think 60-70k+ is a "proper wage"

 

[skyhigh]

Not at all, just surprising people do not think 60-70k+ is a "proper wage"

And if every driver got a pay rise to £60-70k+ with no changes to T&Cs then I doubt they would strike.

Not to mention the fact that yesterday's strike was RMT, and I doubt more than 1% of RMT members make over £60k even with overtime included.

 

[northwichcat]

Is it ethical for management to get a pay rise with no change to terms and conditions but not give the same to the rest of the staff?

Unfortunately, for those in semi-skilled roles the technology revolution is more likely to eliminate your role. We've not yet invented robots that can be CEOs but we have invented ticket barriers that aren't less effective at ticket checking than humans.

Because all the negative impacts that you listed also occured when Nurses went on strike, so why are you not talking about them, and the Nurses got a pay rise without loosing any terms and conditions. So how do this tell you all you need to know?

Their union accepted a lower pay offer then they were hoping for. Their union also wasn't opposing better use of technology to prevent changes to their member's roles.

 

[NI 271]

Not at all, just surprising people do not think 60-70k+ is a "proper wage"

Famously, all railway employees are on £60-70kpa.

@skyhigh nailed your hat right on there. I don't see this thread making it past teatime.

 

[northwichcat]

14 days to me seems like a reasonable timescale to make alternative arrangements if needed.

Have you ever tried booking a last minute hotel in somewhere like London? Even Premier Inn Hubs can charge £250/night. Even 14 days notice will sometimes mean the less well off can't afford to travel to a relative's funeral.

 

[Bantamzen]

Because all the negative impacts that you listed also occured when Nurses went on strike, so why are you not talking about them, and the Nurses got a pay rise without loosing any terms and conditions. So how do this tell you all you need to know?

Well for a start nurses pay was slipping back on many other jobs for quite some time, including the rail industry. Actually so was mine, in fact over a period of around 15 years my rises averaged in the 1-3% maximum pa. It was getting to the point that my pay grade was rapidly slipping towards minimum wage. So much so that I took the decision to push for promotion just to get my wage up to a comfortable level.

And in all my 36 years of working in the public service, not once has my wage been determined by what someone else gets. So I'm unsure why you think the railway industry should?

 

[Krokodil]

Not at all, just surprising people do not think 60-70k+ is a "proper wage"

I'm on 60-70k+, am I? I'd better get onto HR, I must be missing some back pay.

We've not yet invented robots that can be CEOs

You could have fooled me.

Their union accepted a lower pay offer then they were hoping for.

And the rail unions would willingly settle for 4%

Their union also wasn't opposing better use of technology to prevent changes to their member's roles.

What "better use of technology" would that be? The biggest obstacles to a settlement are the proposed to rostering.

 

[Schweir]

And if every driver got a pay rise to £60-70k+ with no changes to T&Cs then I doubt they would strike.

Not to mention the fact that yesterday's strike was RMT, and I doubt more than 1% of RMT members make over £60k even with overtime included.

Do you think RMT members are paid a "proper wage " then?

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm on 60-70k+, am I? I'd better get onto HR, I must be missing some back pay.

I pay your wages... So I'll just check under the sofa quickly.

Do you think RMT members are paid a "proper wage " then?

What is a proper wage ?

 

[northwichcat]

What "better use of technology" would that be? The biggest obstacles to a settlement are the proposed to rostering.

So nothing to do with the RMT not wanting to accept a deal that involves DOO or even anything that could be seen as a partial move to DOO, like drivers releasing doors?

 

[Schweir]

I pay your wages... So I'll just check under the sofa quickly.




What is a proper wage ?

You tell me, I thought that is why the unions are striking