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The Fell locomotive film.

Ashley Hill

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This film appeared on YouTube recently about the development and building of the unique Fell locomotive. It was made by the Shell film unit in 1952 and is a fascinating film which i thought some of you may enjoy it. Here is a link to the film.
 
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Westinghouse

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This film appeared on YouTube recently about the development and building of the unique Fell locomotive. It was made by the Shell film unit in 1952 and is a fascinating film which i thought some of you may enjoy it. Here is a link to the film.
Excellent. Many thanks for posting.
 

billh

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Very interesting. But 5 diesel engines in one loco and a hugely complex gearbox? Was it this combination that caused no further locos to be built or was it BRs mindset to just go with diesel electric?Why was it considered better than D/E?
With electric traction motors the starting from rest torque is at a maximum so ideally suited to rail .
 

Irascible

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Fairly sure back then you could get higher overall starting TE from a hydraulic, although partly that's because they don't have independently driven axles - certainly they're more tolerant of being thrashed than electrics of the time. There were some industrial politics involved in the whole modernisation process too...
 

Ashley Hill

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Very interesting. But 5 diesel engines in one loco and a hugely complex gearbox? Was it this combination that caused no further locos to be built or was it BRs mindset to just go with diesel electric?Why was it considered better than D/E?
With electric traction motors the starting from rest torque is at a maximum so ideally suited to rail .
i believe a nut fell into the gearbox causing severe damage and was not repaired. Did BR really want to risk building a fleet of diesels with such an exotic gearbox?
 

Trackman

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i believe a nut fell into the gearbox causing severe damage and was not repaired. Did BR really want to risk building a fleet of diesels with such an exotic gearbox?
I think it was repaired and set on fire a few years later.
I think it had 6 engines too, one was for auxiliary power - for me there was too much to go wrong with it, plus it was completely non-standard.
 

Geep

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I remember seeing it in service one evening on the Derby - Manchester line, early 1950s. Treated very much as an out-of-the-ordinary occasion, though on a stopping passenger train.
 

32475

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Absolutely wonderful and thanks for sharing AH. It was never going to win a beauty contest but it was no less innovative and epitomised a fascinating period of experimentation in the early days of BR. It looks like the love child of a class 37 and a couple of domestic oil tanks with coupling rods thrown in for good measure!
 

alf

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Very interesting but hard for me to fully understand at one viewing.

Apart from complexity wasn’t another problem that only 500 HP (one engine)was available in first gear, 1,000 HP (two engines)in second gear, 1,500 HP in third gear & the final 2,000 hp (all 4 drive engines) only useable in top gear.
So when the power was most needed in accelerating a heavy train from rest it was not available!
Even worse, when climbing a bank with speed dropping, going from 4th to 3rd gear immediately lost a quarter of the power when it was most needed.
One minor benefit ..no risk of slipping at slow speeds!
 

Pigeon

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Very interesting. But 5 diesel engines in one loco and a hugely complex gearbox? Was it this combination that caused no further locos to be built or was it BRs mindset to just go with diesel electric?Why was it considered better than D/E?
With electric traction motors the starting from rest torque is at a maximum so ideally suited to rail .

6 engines!

Partly, at that time there wasn't yet a consensus in favour of electric transmission. Things were still a bit experimental, and especially with maintenance facilities adapted for steam traction it wasn't obvious that electric transmission wouldn't end up as just as much of a maintenance nightmare as the complexity makes the Fell look like it would be. So while it might look like a bit of a silly idea now it didn't so much then.

Partly also it was Paxman wanting to be able to demonstrate their novel engine configuration in a machine in proper grown-up service. Instead of adjusting the torque curve through the characteristics of the transmission, it was done by adjusting the characteristics of the engines themselves. The power output was a function of the speed of the auxiliary engines driving the pressure chargers, not of the main engines; power remained substantially constant regardless of the speed of the main engines, so the torque was at a maximum at minimum engine speed and reduced as speed increased.

Torque was not multiplied in low gears as it is in a car. The effective gear ratio varied in inverse proportion to the number of engines driving it, so the multiplication effect in lower gears was cancelled by the smaller number of engines providing drive.
 

Geep

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According to Wikipedia, withdrawn 15 October 1958, scrapped 1960
I never saw it again after I started at Derby in late 1957.
 

778

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Would this film have been shown on the BBC in 1952 or would it more likely be shown at the cinema before the main film started?
 

Geep

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TVs were very few and far between in 1952, so cinema is more likely for most people to see it. Doesn't follow that it was widely distributed, though, as it is very much a special interest item. May possibly just have been made available in the East Midlands only, as being of local interest.
 

DerekC

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TVs were very few and far between in 1952, so cinema is more likely for most people to see it. Doesn't follow that it was widely distributed, though, as it is very much a special interest item. May possibly just have been made available in the East Midlands only, as being of local interest.
TVs became much more widespread at the time of the coronation of QEII in 1953. I recall watching a film on TV about it in (probably) 1956 or 7 - which may well have been this one. Unless it was on "Railway Roundabout", which started in 1958 and I was addicted to!
 

gg1

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Wonderful film, especially the engine sound, something that's often missing from railway filming of that era (I don't recall ever seeing a clip of 10000/10001 which clearly recorded their sound).

If I'd have heard that sound in isolation with no video I'd have guessed it was a modernish (80s or later) DMU rather than something built in the 50s.
 

Henffordd

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TVs were very few and far between in 1952, so cinema is more likely for most people to see it. Doesn't follow that it was widely distributed, though, as it is very much a special interest item. May possibly just have been made available in the East Midlands only, as being of local interest.
Looks to me like the sort of film that companies like Shell produced for showing in education establishments. As a sixth-former in the 1960s, I remember booking films like this (though not this one) to show at the school scientific society. 15-20 minute films, or else illustrated lectures, were the only resource then.
 

Taunton

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The multi-engine, mechanical transmission, complex gearbox approach is of course just a variation on what turned out well with the mass of diesel multiple units of the same era, where a three-car branch line train had four engines, two under each power car, and four somewhat complex gearboxes to go with them, all derived from mass-produced automotive power trains of buses of the era.

The smaller mechanical transmission diesel shunters, many built at the same time, had the same approach, managing with just one such engine, and gearing that allowed them to move a full length freight train in a yard at walking pace. These worked sufficiently well that most heritage railways nowadays still seem to have one, now 60 or more years old, to move everything else around.
 

172007

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If you go by the old mantra if it looks good it probably is then the Fells look much like the Claytons and seen somewhat strange. The bones font seem to match up with the cab and the bonnet lengh seems too long for the height of it
 

Grumpy

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Wonderful film, especially the engine sound, something that's often missing from railway filming of that era (I don't recall ever seeing a clip of 10000/10001 which clearly recorded their sound).
This YouTube clip features 10201/2 which must have been pretty similar. Very class 40ish

 

stuving

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The multi-engine, mechanical transmission, complex gearbox approach is of course just a variation on what turned out well with the mass of diesel multiple units of the same era, where a three-car branch line train had four engines, two under each power car, and four somewhat complex gearboxes to go with them, all derived from mass-produced automotive power trains of buses of the era.

Ah, but it's not the same! I don't think either the film or Wikipedia really explains what the Fell gearbox is doing very well.

You could make a locomotive on the same principles as a DMU, either mechanical or hydraulic. Say it too has four engines, with a hydraulic drive or coupling considered as part of each. Combine them using a gearbox that simply connects each input shaft directly to a common output shaft, and they all turn together. In a DMU the wheels and rails couple its engines in the same way. Total torque (or the equivalent traction force at the rail) is the sum of all the engines', if the gearing is 1:1 throughout.

A single differential gear (with 2 inputs) or the Fell gearbox (with 4) is different in important ways. It does not force all its input shafts to rotate together, instead the output shaft speed is the arithmetic mean of the 2 or 4 inputs. If the engines play nicely together and do run at the same speed, the output speed is also the same - but only if. It's not hard to see this for a single differential, just by imagining it (if you can do that sort of thing).

For torque, the situation is harder to see. Now, all input shafts must have the same torque, apart from small differences due to friction and losses. The output torque is 2 or 4 times this equal input torque. Think about a car's final drive to the wheels - you know if one wheel loses grip, the torque on the other wheel and the engine both drop to near zero, and that's the same principle applying. Locking a shaft, instead of driving it, leaves the torque the same but now no power is supplied.

The speeds of the engines at their common torque (depending somewhat on exactly what the hydraulic coupling does) will be determined by their torque/speed curves, and how they react dynamically to changes in load. I imagine the designers had no way of predicting that accurately, as you now might by modelling, so the trials were needed to find that out. The unusual turbocharging system was also, I suspect, meant to persuade the engines to play nicely together. If they don't things could get very messy!
 

Irascible

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The unusual turbocharging system does seem rather odd, I'm not sure how that was better than running a supercharger with a wastegate & taking some of the excess air to pre-charge the next engine...

It was a lot less complex than using multiple epicyclic gearboxes ( like DMUs ) would have been - there's no gearchanging involved here. I can't help wondering about a hydraulic version of the principle.
 

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