The future of Heathrow Express Post Crossrail

[Non Multi]

This 'Crossrail' is so good, it's killed off HEX without even running a train in service from it's tunnels. Quite the achievement! Mystic Wolmar's got nothing on this lot...

 

[cactustwirly]

What would TfL do with 4 paths per hour on the fast lines. That can only really be used for improving origin or destination pairs outside London. If the hex was moved to the slows you may have a point.

If the 4tph hex Heathrow slots became available. They would go to GwR for fast Slough and reading services. These services will abstract revenue from the Elizabeth line through Orcats allocations Currently the Heathrow express doesn't because there isn't ticket acceptance between the two.

The concern TfL have with the Heathrow express. Is that Heathrow airport may price dump the express service with TfL not being in a position to compete on price because of the high track access fees it pays.

The handing of the service to first group may make this more likely to happen. Heathrow airport can now claim the infrastructure and the rail service are run by different companies. Even though the infrastructure owner gets all the ticket revenue.

The 4 fast paths are meaningless west of Airport junction.
TfL already get a slim percentage of Slough and Reading tickets on Orcats, and I imagine it's not that much bigger for Twyford and Maidenhead

 

[Ianno87]

Heathrow Airport have invested a huge amount in HEx fleet replacement, and the operational tie up with Great Western - and carry the fiscal risk associated with it.

Heathrow Airport aren’t stupid, they may not be the busiest airport in the world but overwhelmingly their business sense has been right on the money for decades, and has put them at the top table of world airports. And they know their customers. They’ve committed to 10 years of paying Great Western or it’s franchise successor, funded the work on the 387s and so on. They won’t have done so if they didn’t feel they were going to make a return on their investment, regardless of what TfL do.

If necessary, some aggressive marketing and pricing will keep passengers on HEx trains. For them, it's better in revenue terms than passengers just jumping in taxis from the terminal.

Remember the average tourist stepping off at Heathrow for the first time could be forgiven for thinking that HEx is the only way to get to Zone 1, given the prominence of its signage and wayfinding in the arrivals area.

HEx is simply not targeted at a "normal" set of passengers. Whose grasp of the value if time, or even the value of currency is "abnormal"

 

[Techniquest]

It feels appropriate for me to weigh in a bit here, I've just read the last couple of pages' worth of views and by cripes you'd think Paddington was literally miles from Central London, the way some people describe it!

Paddington's my most geographically sensible London terminal of choice for getting to Heathrow, although if I was choosing by the price of fares I'd probably choose Euston on a WMR/LNWR Advance. For a moment though, let's assume I've managed a bargain GWR Advance which does occasionally happen, and that I've made it to Paddington.

My choices to Heathrow, and bear in mind I rarely take a big bag/case with me, are HeX, LU or the stopper to Heathrow. Of course, if I was on a different fare I'd change at Reading for a stopper then change again at Hayes & Harlington, but that journey doesn't normally generate cheap Advances in my experience, so it's not even close to my top option.

Quite honestly, my first choice would be HeX. It certainly would have been in the days of 332s, and having done the journey from Holland Park to Heathrow in January this year (similar distance I believe as from Paddington) I'd not choose LU purely based on how long it takes.

HeX now being 387s doesn't concern me, I don't mind them at all. As far as I'm concerned, the best way to arrive from Paddington would be on Heathrow Express. I normally allow boatloads of time to get through airport security etc, so it wouldn't be down to needing to get there quickly. Although if it was then HeX wins hands-down.

In my mind, HeX is the premium way to start a holiday. I can board with ease, with plenty of room to get comfortable, there's power points if I need them, the route is good fun (I am a little biased as I love the GWML) and it's fast. There's not a long journey to relax on, granted, but compared to the hassle of LU it would be so much nicer. Same for joining a 345, that would be far less enjoyable. I can join HeX with a coffee and have a table to put it on, same with a meal if needs be.

All in, I will happily pay the premium for HeX when I (hopefully) get to fly out of Heathrow in March!

 

[davetheguard]

The sticks? I get its not as close as say Victoria or Waterloo but to "central" London, but it's hardly much further that say Euston or St Pancras. And a walkable distance to Hyde Park, Oxford St. A lot of hyperbole about Paddington being an inconvenient terminal and whilst not ideal, its not that bad.

Indeed. It's right in the heart of one of the capital's hotel districts; just right for many visitors coming from the airport.

 

[Horizon22]

If necessary, some aggressive marketing and pricing will keep passengers on HEx trains. For them, it's better in revenue terms than passengers just jumping in taxis from the terminal.

Remember the average tourist stepping off at Heathrow for the first time could be forgiven for thinking that HEx is the only way to get to Zone 1, given the prominence of its signage and wayfinding in the arrivals area.

HEx is simply not targeted at a "normal" set of passengers. Whose grasp of the value if time, or even the value of currency is "abnormal"

It also depends what role the station team play and how easy it will be to explain. Gatwick Express at Victoria is often used as the default option as it's easier to explain to a passenger with a only basic grasp of English as opposed to "3rd stop on this train to Eastbourne". Less of an issue though when Heathrow is a terminus for both TfL and HEX.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. It's right in the heart of one of the capital's hotel districts; just right for many visitors coming from the airport.

It is, but they are mostly cheaper tourist hotels, not premium business ones - budget travellers are precisely the sort of people who won't be using HEx.

 

[JonathanH]

It is, but they are mostly cheaper tourist hotels, not premium business ones - budget travellers are precisely the sort of people who won't be using HEx.

You do not have to go very far from Paddington to reach some quite upmarket parts of London. Don't be too clouded by the area immediately around the station. (I appreciate that you also don't have to go far to reach some downmarket bits as well.)

 

[py_megapixel]

It is, but they are mostly cheaper tourist hotels, not premium business ones - budget travellers are precisely the sort of people who won't be using HEx.

In fact I've seen materials about the best tips for visiting London which actually explicitly list not using the airport express services as one of their key money-saving tips!

 

[Horizon22]

In fact I've seen materials about the best tips for visiting London which actually explicitly list not using the airport express services as one of their key money-saving tips!

I've not been to Heathrow for a long time - how much marketing is there around arrivals / baggage reclaim for HeX? Is it plastered all over the place like GatEx and Stansted Express?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In fact I've seen materials about the best tips for visiting London which actually explicitly list not using the airport express services as one of their key money-saving tips!

Works in most cities around the world, to be fair. Airport expresses where they exist usually carry a premium (because "fleece the tourist" is a very easy game to play), and there is invariably some sort of local bus or rail service there too because the staff commuting to the airport aren't going to be willing to pay premium fares. It's just a case of finding it. Sometimes it's more obvious than others.

 

[43096]

Works in most cities around the world, to be fair. Airport expresses where they exist usually carry a premium (because "fleece the tourist" is a very easy game to play), and there is invariably some sort of local bus or rail service there too because the staff commuting to the airport aren't going to be willing to pay premium fares. It's just a case of finding it. Sometimes it's more obvious than others.

City Airport Train in Vienna is an obvious one. I've only used it because the Taurus working it was required! As there's also a regular RailJet/IC service to Hbf it's even more of a pointless service than HEx is.

 

[paul1609]

The sticks? I get its not as close as say Victoria or Waterloo but to "central" London, but it's hardly much further that say Euston or St Pancras. And a walkable distance to Hyde Park, Oxford St. A lot of hyperbole about Paddington being an inconvenient terminal and whilst not ideal, its not that bad.

It's not that good either walking distance from Piccadily Circus is 2.4 miles. Elephant & Castle is the same distance and Vauxhall is 2 miles. Neither of those would be regarded as Central London Stations.

 

[Ianno87]

It's not that good either walking distance from Piccadily Circus is 2.4 miles. Elephant & Castle is the same distance and Vauxhall is 2 miles. Neither of those would be regarded as Central London Stations.

By that logic, Liverpool Street, Fenchurch Street and London Bridge aren't Central London stations either...

Central London (the "Central Activity Zone" to Transport Planners) is much wider east-west than North-South

 

[Hophead]

It's not that good either walking distance from Piccadily Circus is 2.4 miles. Elephant & Castle is the same distance and Vauxhall is 2 miles. Neither of those would be regarded as Central London Stations.

Though all are slightly closer than Fenchurch Street Station is to Piccadilly Circus...

 

[Horizon22]

Though all are slightly closer than Fenchurch Street Station is to Piccadilly Circus...

Charing Cross is the 'traditional' centre of London, which is just a 12min bakerloo line trip from Paddington.

 

[paul1609]

By that logic, Liverpool Street, Fenchurch Street and London Bridge aren't Central London stations either...

Central London (the "Central Activity Zone" to Transport Planners) is much wider east-west than North-South

Nobody who wanted to go to Picadily would get off at London Bridge, it along with Fenchurch Street and Liverpool Street were designed to serve the City Of London.
The fact that they are only 0.2 to 0.3 miles further away emphasises just how remote Paddington London Parkway is!

 

[coppercapped]

TfL should absolutely want to kill off HEx, because if/when that happens, TfL are then going to pick up the non-stopping paths (and associated revenue) with additional Fast Elizabeth Line services — and end up in the position to negotiate the track access charges right down.

I don't understand this statement.

Are you suggesting that Elizabeth Line trains (aka Crossrail) will use the Mains rather than HEx? Are you aware that the Class 345 trains have a 90mph top speed and trying to run these between all the Class 80Xs at 125mph will end in tears?

In any event there is no grade separated route from the Crossrail tunnels to the Mains - flat junctions won't work at the train intensity as currently operated.

To which track access charges are you referring? Those between the Crossrail tunnel portal and Airport Junction are the standard Network Rail charges and those on the airport branch have recently been fixed by the ORR as part of the Crossrail access agreement. What is there to negotiate?

 

[Horizon22]

I don't understand this statement.

Are you suggesting that Elizabeth Line trains (aka Crossrail) will use the Mains rather than HEx? Are you aware that the Class 345 trains have a 90mph top speed and trying to run these between all the Class 80Xs at 125mph will end in tears?

In any event there is no grade separated route from the Crossrail tunnels to the Mains - flat junctions won't work at the train intensity as currently operated.

To which track access charges are you referring. Those between the Crossrail tunnel portal and Airport Junction are the standard Network Rail charges and those on the airport branch have recently been fixed by the ORR as part of the Crossrail access agreement. What is there to negotiate?

I presume he means that HeX eventually becomes a TfL run and managed operation. This would be tricky of course because Heathrow Airport owns the infrastructure.

 

[Wolfie]

I presume he means that HeX eventually becomes a TfL run and managed operation. This would be tricky of course because Heathrow Airport owns the infrastructure.

One option, prior to TfL's current financial woes, might have been for them and/or NR to buy out Heathrow's interest in the rail line.

 

[matt_world2004]

The 4 fast paths are meaningless west of Airport junction.
TfL already get a slim percentage of Slough and Reading tickets on Orcats, and I imagine it's not that much bigger for Twyford and Maidenhead

If the Heathrow express closed they wouldn't be. They cannot be used on intermediate London services. And they can only be used on services where the first stop was Slough

 

[coppercapped]

One option, prior to TfL's current financial woes, might have been for them and/or NR to buy out Heathrow's interest in the rail line.

Why? The airport branch only serves the airport - what reason would TfL have for spending money to buy infrastructure which serves only one customer?

There are some seriously bonkers ideas being suggested in this thread.

 

[cactustwirly]

If the Heathrow express closed they wouldn't be. They cannot be used on intermediate London services. And they can only be used on services where the first stop was Slough

They can't be used at all, there isn't a path beyond Airport junction, as the preceding service already stops at Slough (also Maidenhead in the peaks)

 

[matt_world2004]

They can't be used at all, there isn't a path beyond Airport junction, as the preceding service already stops at Slough (also Maidenhead in the peaks)

So the Heathrow express slot can also stop at Slough?

 

[cactustwirly]

So the Heathrow express slot can also stop at Slough?

No because it'll hold up the non stop train behind, causing a domino effect.
That's why they're only useful for HEx services.
You either have HEx or nothing

 

[matt_world2004]

They can't be used at all, there isn't a path beyond Airport junction, as the preceding service already stops at Slough (also Maidenhead in the peaks)

Well it would be worse if they stopped in West Drayton.

 

[swt_passenger]

No because it'll hold up the non stop train behind, causing a domino effect.
That's why they're only useful for HEx services.
You either have HEx or nothing

I wonder how many HEx or GW or Crossrail discussions have included this explanation by now? It’s remarkable how often it comes up...

 

[AverageTD]

I've not been to Heathrow for a long time - how much marketing is there around arrivals / baggage reclaim for HeX? Is it plastered all over the place like GatEx and Stansted Express?

A massive amount, at T4 for example which is my most used Terminal, it's plastered all over. Of course HEX doesn't go to T4 but the customers don't know that until the platform where diagrams explain the Heathrow trains dynamic. There's very little in the way of TfL branding except from the Piccadilly Line which gets a fair amount of exposure too, just not as the main way to London.

 

[matt_world2004]

I wonder how many HEx or GW or Crossrail discussions have included this explanation by now? It’s remarkable how often it comes up...

You and cactuswirly have completely missed the context of my post. It was arguing why TfL didn't want the slots. A 4tph slot on the fast lines is completely useless to TfL.

 

[cactustwirly]

You and cactuswirly have completely missed the context of my post. It was arguing why TfL didn't want the slots. A 4tph slot on the fast lines is completely useless to TfL.

But you were arguing for the paths to be used to Slough and Reading!!