The Green Party of England and Wales under Carla Denyer and Adrian Ramsay

[AY1975]

There are already threads on here about the Labour Party under Keir Starmer and the Conservatives under Kemi Badenoch (and one on the potential threat of a Trump-style takeover under Farage), so I thought how about a thread about the Green Party of England and Wales under the current co-leadership of Carla Denyer and Adrian Ramsay. What are your thoughts about its recent performance and potential future election prospects?

I'm referring specifically to the Green Party of England and Wales. The Scottish and Northern Irish Green Parties potentially warrant separate threads, although you hardly hear anything of the Green Party in Northern Ireland.

 

[Acfb]

I've been wondering if the Greens should be doing better. They had an impressive amount of momentum at the general election but they now seem to have maxed out at 9-10% despite Labour's unpopularity.

This may be partly down to the FPTP electoral system. I hadn't clocked how strong and established the Greens in Australia had become where they have AV instead and are currently polling 13% and have major strength in urban centres such as Melbourne.

 

[Magdalia]

I don't assess the progress of the Greens by national opinion polls.

The local elections are three weeks away and will be a much better indicator, the Greens successes at the last general election were built on the foundations of local success.

It isn't a particularly reliable indicator in modern elections, but I have noticed a lot of green posters while cycling around the Cambridge area.

The Lib Dem leader of Cambridgeshire County Council is on the chicken run to avoid defeat by the Greens.

 

[brad465]

I've been wondering if the Greens should be doing better. They had an impressive amount of momentum at the general election but they now seem to have maxed out at 9-10% despite Labour's unpopularity.

This may be partly down to the FPTP electoral system. I hadn't clocked how strong and established the Greens in Australia had become where they have AV instead and are currently polling 13% and have major strength in urban centres such as Melbourne.

FPTP is a problem for them in two ways: first the obvious, their vote share and seat tally is very disproportionate against them; second, they resort to more extreme positions to win certain voters in key seats at the expense of many others. If we had PR the Greens would need to moderate to not only get more representation, but be part of any coalition in government, similar to how the German Greens have performed.

The last election also highlighted some very contradictory policies to help them gain votes. They are arguably the most NIMBY party with any Westminster seats, to the point that local MPs/councillors will oppose renewable energy projects in the area they represent, even though going green is very much their main ethos.

 

[Acfb]

I don't assess the progress of the Greens by national opinion polls.

The local elections are three weeks away and will be a much better indicator, the Greens successes at the last general election were built on the foundations of local success.

It isn't a particularly reliable indicator in modern elections, but I have noticed a lot of green posters while cycling around the Cambridge area.

The Lib Dem leader of Cambridgeshire County Council is on the chicken run to avoid defeat by the Greens.

Yes, local elections are a different kettle of fish. The Greens seem to have supplanted the Lib Dems as the main opposition to Labour in Cambridge now. Will be most interesting to see how well they do in rural areas where they are already strong and the LDs are weak such as Herefordshire and Suffolk.

 

[gingerheid]

I think they're against every public transport project in Cambs? They're for East West rail but against it being built, and for buses but against busways.

 

[cactustwirly]

I've been wondering if the Greens should be doing better. They had an impressive amount of momentum at the general election but they now seem to have maxed out at 9-10% despite Labour's unpopularity.

This may be partly down to the FPTP electoral system. I hadn't clocked how strong and established the Greens in Australia had become where they have AV instead and are currently polling 13% and have major strength in urban centres such as Melbourne.

They're completely mad.
They're basically the Reform of the left dressed up.
Their policies are extremist and don't resonate with most people

 

[GusB]

I'm referring specifically to the Green Party of England and Wales. The Scottish and Northern Irish Green Parties potentially warrant separate threads, although you hardly hear anything of the Green Party in Northern Ireland.

Why? While Green parties across the UK may be separate entities, I really don't understand why there should be separate threads. There may be some minor policy differences but I think the overall aims are largely the same. We don't have separate threads for Scottish Labour, Libdems or Conservatives, do we? You're essentially excluding people from the discussion if they don't live in England or Wales and that seems rather silly to me.

They're completely mad.
They're basically the Reform of the left dressed up.
Their policies are extremist and don't resonate with most people

I'd be interested to know which policies you think are extremist. Have you actually surveyed "most people" to establish whether or not the policies resonate?

 

[Egg Centric]

I'd be interested to know which policies you think are extremist. Have you actually surveyed "most people" to establish whether or not the policies resonate?

Not to answer for that poster, but I could easily see the case that "most people" might love to vote for

• Repeal of current anti-union legislation and its replacement with a positive Charter of Workers’ Rights, with the right to strike at its heart along with a legal obligation for all employers to recognise trade unions.
• A maximum 10:1 pay ratio for all private- and public-sector organisations.

• An increase in the minimum wage to £15 an hour, no matter your age, with the costs to small businesses offset by reducing their National Insurance payments.
• Equal employment rights for all workers from their first day of employment, including those working in the ‘gig economy’ and on zero-hours contracts. Gig employers that repeatedly break employment, data protection or tax law will be denied licences to operate.
• A move to a four-day working week.

or

• Rent controls so local authorities can control rents if the rental market is unaffordable for many local people.
• A new stable rental tenancy and an end to no-fault evictions so tenants are secure in their homes and don’t have their lives turned upside down on the whim of their landlords. We will also introduce a tenants’ right to demand energy efficiency improvements.
• Private residential tenancy boards to provide an informal, cheap and speedy forum for resolving disputes before they reach a tribunal.

​

But that wouldn't change that it's absolute pie in the sky crap, may as well vote for free unicorns for all.

There are some very interesting green policies but they ruin them through economic illiteracy. Rent controls ffs!

 

[GusB]

But that wouldn't change that it's absolute pie in the sky crap, may as well vote for free unicorns for all.

There are some very interesting green policies but they ruin them through economic illiteracy. Rent controls ffs!

You didn't provide a source for the list of stuff that you quoted - where did this come from?

• Rent controls so local authorities can control rents if the rental market is unaffordable for many local people.

What's the issue with rent controls? We have regulators overseeing matters such as gas/electric and telecoms to ensure that consumers aren't being ripped off, but there's no such oversight for landlords.

• A new stable rental tenancy and an end to no-fault evictions so tenants are secure in their homes and don’t have their lives turned upside down on the whim of their landlords. We will also introduce a tenants’ right to demand energy efficiency improvements.

The issue with private rents is that there is no stability. Landlords can and do turn people's lives upside down on a whim. I'm not suggesting for a moment that all landlords are evil, but you cannot deny that there are some fairly unscrupulous characters out there.

• Private residential tenancy boards to provide an informal, cheap and speedy forum for resolving disputes before they reach a tribunal.

I'm really not sure why you think this is an issue. Essentially this proposes an informal dispute resolution process; surely this is better for both tenant and landlord than escalating matters and potentially making it more expensive for both in the long run.

 

[zero]

I've been wondering if the Greens should be doing better. They had an impressive amount of momentum at the general election but they now seem to have maxed out at 9-10% despite Labour's unpopularity.

This may be partly down to the FPTP electoral system. I hadn't clocked how strong and established the Greens in Australia had become where they have AV instead and are currently polling 13% and have major strength in urban centres such as Melbourne.

Australia does not use AV. For the House of Representatives instant runoff voting a.k.a. preferential voting is used, where voters must rank every candidate. So one can vote primarily for the Greens and (if relevant) still express a preference for one of the two main parties, which, granted, AV would also achieve.

In the 2022 Australian federal election, despite the party receiving 12% of first preferences, only 4 out of 151 MPs elected were Greens. This was actually a big improvement on the roughly 10% of first preferences over the previous decade which only managed to elect a single MP each time, but is not really a strong showing.

The Greens do do well in the Senate, which uses proportional representation optional preferential single transferable vote. However, I think their strength is mainly just a reflection of the fact that they are the third main party (if the Coalition is counted as one), so at least with regards to England only it may be more apt to compare voting statistics to the UK Lib Dems than the UK Greens. Like the Lib Dems, the Aus Greens may attract people who lean left but don't want to vote for Labo(u)r, so they have to be slightly more mainstream, whereas the UK Greens are free to have positions that some may regard as "extreme".

Of course the UK doesn't get to vote for the upper house, but I would guess that the Lib Dem representation in the HoL is probably broadly what it would be if the UK had a PR system.

 

[Magdalia]

There are some very interesting green policies but they ruin them through economic illiteracy.

In particular, those who think that they can fund their interesting green policies without economic growth are living in an economic fantasy world.

 

[dangie]

There are some very interesting green policies but they ruin them through economic illiteracy. Rent controls ffs!

You can have the most ‘interesting‘ policies in the world, which is great, especially when you know you’ll never be in the position to have to implement them.

As for the Greens doing well in local elections, promising to repair a few broken street signs, or tidy up overgrown footpaths is hardly going to get the country back on its feet.

 

[JamesT]

What's the issue with rent controls? We have regulators overseeing matters such as gas/electric and telecoms to ensure that consumers aren't being ripped off, but there's no such oversight for landlords.

The issue with private rents is that there is no stability. Landlords can and do turn people's lives upside down on a whim. I'm not suggesting for a moment that all landlords are evil, but you cannot deny that there are some fairly unscrupulous characters out there.

I'm really not sure why you think this is an issue. Essentially this proposes an informal dispute resolution process; surely this is better for both tenant and landlord than escalating matters and potentially making it more expensive for both in the long run.

Being in Scotland, you'll be able to see the effect of rent controls. Where rents have risen higher than England during the time the controls were in effect and the supply of houses to rent has fallen.
It's a policy with a history of backfiring wherever it's been tried.
But it's a policy that appeals to the authoritarian side of socialism where they want to manage everything, so it comes up again and again. When the true answer is to remove the barriers to building more houses.

 

[Magdalia]

As for the Greens doing well in local elections, promising to repair a few broken street signs, or tidy up overgrown footpaths is hardly going to get the country back on its feet.

From little acorns, big oak trees may grow (though it will take a long time).

 

[cactustwirly]

Why? While Green parties across the UK may be separate entities, I really don't understand why there should be separate threads. There may be some minor policy differences but I think the overall aims are largely the same. We don't have separate threads for Scottish Labour, Libdems or Conservatives, do we? You're essentially excluding people from the discussion if they don't live in England or Wales and that seems rather silly to me.


I'd be interested to know which policies you think are extremist. Have you actually surveyed "most people" to establish whether or not the policies resonate?

Wealth taxes, Carbon taxes, stopping local extraction of fossil fuels, getting rid of Nuclear power

Fundamentally it is flawed, wealth taxes do not work, Carbon taxes will just drive inflation - most consumer goods are petrochemical derived so the taxes will just get passed onto the consumer

Getting rid of Nuclear power is ideological, it's not renewable but very clean and reliable source of energy. It is needed when it is not windy etc

 

[Magdalia]

Carbon taxes will just drive inflation - most consumer goods are petrochemical derived so the taxes will just get passed onto the consumer

Getting rid of Nuclear power is ideological, it's not renewable but very clean and reliable source of energy. It is needed when it is not windy etc

I don't have a problem with these. They are political choices, they wouldn't be a green party if they didn't advocate things like these.

Fundamentally it is flawed, wealth taxes do not work

But I do have a problem with this. I agree that wealth taxes won't work.

 

[Egg Centric]

You didn't provide a source for the list of stuff that you quoted - where did this come from?

Their UK General Election manifesto - I just went and looked at a couple of things (didn't read the whole thing)

What's the issue with rent controls? We have regulators overseeing matters such as gas/electric and telecoms to ensure that consumers aren't being ripped off, but there's no such oversight for landlords.

The case against rent controls is basically settled from seeing how it works... everywhere... long term. It's like asking me to give the issues with communism. Utilities are somewhat different in that they are nautral monopolies. The regulators will be driving up the average price on them as well btw - it's also inevitable - but they will hopefully be preventing supply shocks so there is more of an argument for it.

The issue with private rents is that there is no stability. Landlords can and do turn people's lives upside down on a whim. I'm not suggesting for a moment that all landlords are evil, but you cannot deny that there are some fairly unscrupulous characters out there.

I don't deny it at all. I'd go as far as to call a very significant proportion of landlords as bastards - but this isn't the solution. The only palatable solution is build build build. It's that or depopulation by some means and I can't think of one.

I'm really not sure why you think this is an issue. Essentially this proposes an informal dispute resolution process; surely this is better for both tenant and landlord than escalating matters and potentially making it more expensive for both in the long run.

Someone needs to pay for these boards, ultimately that's going to be the tenant.

You can have the most ‘interesting‘ policies in the world, which is great, especially when you know you’ll never be in the position to have to implement them.

Exactly. Which is a damn shame cause there are plenty of great green policies too. Being a classical liberal (like Jeremy Thorpe but without all the attempted murder n that) there is pretty much no party that represents me and I've voted for all of them (fwiw 1 May I will be voting for my local independents in the parish council and labour in the county council, but until recently I have usually described myself as a conservative voter). They're probably the party I'm closest too in their social policy. But pie in the sky stuff that ignores basic economics lets them down so badly. See also Reform....

 

[Trainbike46]

Why? While Green parties across the UK may be separate entities, I really don't understand why there should be separate threads. There may be some minor policy differences but I think the overall aims are largely the same. We don't have separate threads for Scottish Labour, Libdems or Conservatives, do we? You're essentially excluding people from the discussion if they don't live in England or Wales and that seems rather silly to me.

Scottish Labour and Labour in England are the same political party. The Scottish Greens, the Green Party of England and Wales, and the Green Party of Northern Ireland are three separate political parties, at times with different political views. Lumping the three of them together would be like saying the SDLP (from Northern Ireland) and Labour (from GB) are the same party. They're not, in the legal sense. They also have different political views, though they both have a similar political vibe.

In particular, those who think that they can fund their interesting green policies without economic growth are living in an economic fantasy world.

Unfortunately, every UK party denies physical reality in some of its manifesto, as well as denying unpleasant realities in the economic or the realm of other social constructs*. This unfortunately does mean we have to vote for whichever party or candidate we believe is most likely to bring the country more in line with how we think it should be, even if that party lives in a fantasy world, because literally every single one does.

*by social constructs I mean social systems that exist because we as a society have decided to agree they exist. The economy is obviously one of these. This isn't meant to detract from their importance, and in my view it doesn't.

I don't deny it at all. I'd go as far as to call a very significant proportion of landlords as bastards - but this isn't the solution. The only palatable solution is build build build. It's that or depopulation by some means and I can't think of one.

The Scottish Private Residential Tenancy removed the option of a no-fault eviction, and I think that part worked as intended, even if the rent controls themselves did not.

To be honest, I think the solution is to expand social/council housing - I am increasingly convinced the vast majority of private rental sector is in fact a scam, and people should have the option to opt out of it in the form of social housing with a waitlist of no more than 1 year ideally.

 

[Noddy]

Why? While Green parties across the UK may be separate entities, I really don't understand why there should be separate threads. There may be some minor policy differences but I think the overall aims are largely the same.

Because they’re completely different parties, with completely different leadership, not Carla Denyer and Adrian Ramsay as highlighted by the OP! It’s like saying they’re the same as the Green Party in Ireland, France, or Germany etc etc or wherever. We’re not discussing those parties as well are we?

 

[Egg Centric]

The Scottish Private Residential Tenancy removed the option of a no-fault eviction, and I think that part worked as intended, even if the rent controls themselves did not.

What does "intended" mean in this context? No fault evictions will certainly make it harder to evict and thus work as intended in that sense. They also make it harder to rent for "questionable cases", amongst other issues, and so they may or may not fail at what you might call the "greater intention" of a housing market that protects the vulnerable depending on exactly where you draw that.

Whether extra housing comes from social housing or private landlords is something that can reasonably be up for debate (and I think a red herring) but the key thing is to increase the supply.

Even better if people, once they are reasonably settled, can own their own home though. As of a couple of months ago we own our house outright and I can't tell you how reassuring this feels, especially when six or seven years ago I was a "questionable case" who had to put down an extra two months desposit just to rent (now banned - no idea what would happen these days).

 

[Trainbike46]

Even better if people, once they are reasonably settled, can own their own home though. As of a couple of months ago we own our house outright and I can't tell you how reassuring this feels, especially when six or seven years ago I was a "questionable case" who had to put down an extra two months desposit just to rent (now banned - no idea what would happen these days).

Double deposits were banned in NI relatively recently - before this ban the vast majority of tenants were either charged a double deposit or asked to provide a NI-based guarantor (generally speaking ROI or GB based guarantors were not considered acceptable). Now people just pay the standard deposit.

The ban was necessary because landlords and letting agents were taking advantage of things that were supposed to be for special situations, by applying them almost universally. They still take advantage of people who are less familiar with the law, by charging for things that they legally cannot charge for.

 

[Egg Centric]

Double deposits were banned in NI relatively recently - before this ban the vast majority of tenants were either charged a double deposit or asked to provide a NI-based guarantor (generally speaking ROI or GB based guarantors were not considered acceptable). Now people just pay the standard deposit.

The ban was necessary because landlords and letting agents were taking advantage of things that were supposed to be for special situations, by applying them almost universally. They still take advantage of people who are less familiar with the law, by charging for things that they legally cannot charge for.

Right, and that can benefit some tenants, but in a competitive market place like housing atm someone in my position (had a CCJ I didn't even know about that came up under referencing... yes I could have disputed it but there wasn't the time) would have been stuffed. Back then I could pay more to demonstrate less risk. Now someone in my position couldn't, they'd be essentially stuck.

See also foreign students, etc.

Bottom line: no matter how many rules we come up with there is always going to be some mechanism for excluding the 'less desirable' tenants while there's a housing shortage and the more creative mechanisms you legislate away the only one that is left is price.

 

[Trainbike46]

Right, and that can benefit some tenants, but in a competitive market place like housing atm someone in my position (had a CCJ I didn't even know about that came up under referencing... yes I could have disputed it but there wasn't the time) would have been stuffed. Back then I could pay more to demonstrate less risk. Now someone in my position couldn't, they'd be essentially stuck.

There is no difference for these people; because of abuse by landlords and letting agents, the double deposit was applied to almost everyone, so could not be used by people with such issues to improve their relative attractiveness as tenants.

I could see a case for allowing a second month's deposit to be charged in very specific situation, for example allowing a larger deposit if someone keeps a pet, and your CCJ situation could potentially also be such a situation. However, it is important that the situations are clearly defined to prevent the old situation of everyone being charged the double does not reappear.

See also foreign students, etc.

International students' position in the Belfast rental market has actually significantly improved as the amount of housing that can only be let to students has increased massively due to multiple massive student housing complexes opening. I am not familiar with the housing market in Coleraine, which is the major other university town in NI.

Bottom line: no matter how many rules we come up with there is always going to be some mechanism for excluding the 'less desirable' tenants while there's a housing shortage and the more creative mechanisms you legislate away the only one that is left is price.

In my view, the bottom line is that we shouldn't let a system run by often unethical landlords and letting agents determine whether people can get housing. The only way I can see that being achieved is by increasing the availability of social housing, which is (usually) run by the housing executive here in NI.

 

[telstarbox]

The deputy leader Zack Polanski has launched a leadership bid based on eco - populism.

 

[dangie]

The deputy leader Zack Polanski has launched a leadership bid based on eco - populism.

I had to Google that. It states:

”Macroeconomic populism is an approach to economics that emphasises growth and income distribution and de-emphasises the risks of inflation and deficit finance, external constraints and the reaction of economic agents to aggressive non-market policies."

I’d like to see that written on the side of their party election bus

 

[rapmastaj]

I'm pretty sure the 'eco' refers to ecology, not economics. But the main point is simply promoting a bolder, more confident leadership style.

 

[dangie]

…. But the main point is simply promoting a bolder, more confident leadership style.

I think they should start by putting it into language most would understand

 

[Railcar]

Was that Adrian Ramsay who didn't do himself (or the Green Party) any good when he repeatedly dodged a question about trans women from Nick Robnson on the R4 Today programme?

 

[GusB]

Zack's video pitch is here:

I'm pretty sure the 'eco' refers to ecology, not economics. But the main point is simply promoting a bolder, more confident leadership style.

To be fair, I think that the current leadership is probably the boldest and most confident that it has ever been. Having said that, I've seen more from Denyer than I have from Ramsay.

I had a lot of time for Caroline Lucas when she was the leader, but perhaps she was a bit too nice. Maybe it's time for the Greens to be a bit more aggressive; let's face it, where else do leftish voters go if they're not happy with Labour? Reform is currently picking up votes from those who are perhaps more socially conservative, but I think there will come a time when the penny drops and voters realise that Reform doesn't care about working- and lower middle-class voters.

Was that Adrian Ramsay who didn't do himself (or the Green Party) any good when he repeatedly dodged a question about trans women from Nick Robnson on the R4 Today programme?

Do you have a link to the relevant programme?