The impact of the possible decommissioning of Port Talbot blast furnaces and supply of coal to heritage railways from foreign countries.

[paul1609]

It may be worth heritage railways combining resources and setting up their own supply chain. 36000 tons pa is not a lot, but in fact in terms of the sort of smaller general cargo ships that go to places like Kings Lynn it would be more than enough!

I believe that most Uk coal is now imported via Immingham. The smokeless coal thats still used for domestic use is mostly processed there. Thats where mine comes from now, previously I bought it from a company in South Wales which i believe has more or less gone into liquidation since the local supplies of antracite were closed down.
Most heritage railways already buy from a handful of specialist importers and do stockpile their coal. At my railway we only used up our stockpile of Northumberland Coal up last year and now import from Columbia.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I believe that most Uk coal is now imported via Immingham. The smokeless coal thats still used for domestic use is mostly processed there. Thats where mine comes from now, previously I bought it from a company in South Wales which i believe has more or less gone into liquidation since the local supplies of antracite were closed down.
Most heritage railways already buy from a handful of specialist importers and do stockpile their coal. At my railway we only used up our stockpile of Northumberland Coal up last year and now import from Columbia.

As has been mentioned before Aberergwm drift mine is still in an operational condition. Unfortunately it produces anthracite rather than Welsh steam coal as do a few other (two or three man) mines in the Nedd and Dulais valleys. I believe the owners of Aberppergwm argue that the main use of the coal produced is for use in filter beds which don't create carbon emissions. IIRC the Welsh Government have yet to be convinced and coal licencing in Wales is a devolved matter.

Ironicaly probably the largest remaining coal deposit in Wales lies directly underneath the Port Talbot works. The original plans for the works included a Margam "super-pit" which would have supplied the steelworks by conveyors.

 

[paul1609]

As has been mentioned before Aberergwm drift mine is still in an operational condition. Unfortunately it produces anthracite rather than Welsh steam coal as do a few other (two or three man) mines in the Nedd and Dulais valleys. I believe the owners of Aberppergwm argue that the main use of the coal produced is for use in filter beds which don't create carbon emissions. IIRC the Welsh Government have yet to be convinced and coal licencing in Wales is a devolved matter.

Ironicaly probably the largest remaining coal deposit in Wales lies directly underneath the Port Talbot works. The original plans for the works included a Margam "super-pit" which would have supplied the steelworks by conveyors.

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[renegademaster]

Emissions from coal-fired heritage railways and similar 'museum pieces' are infinitesimal. Surely sensible politicians will make exemptions, although the experience in my distant nation regrettably concurs with your comment that Labor (our spelling) governments are ultra woke. Stupidity on steroids (as was Boris Johnson if he indeed signed up UK/England to net zero).

Funny how emissions are rarely if ever measured from the construction of gigantic raptor-killing wind turbines along with solar panels that reduce availability of prime agricultural land, both of which are often made in mainland communist China. They have a limited life.

Coal, nuclear and natural gas power stations can produce electricity 24/7. Solar cannot, and wind may not.

Being drop in the bucket museum pieces doesnt always buy you exemptions from regulations , see WCRC and CDL or some canals and coal

 

[BoroAndy]

Well all this is interesting reading relating to the current heritage steam locos, however, I wonder what the view is to the future, and the huge expensive projects being undertaken by the A1 trust. With their second loco now over half built and the third being planned, I wonder if they will tune the boilers to biomass rather than coal.

 

[zwk500]

Being drop in the bucket museum pieces doesnt always buy you exemptions from regulations , see WCRC and CDL or some canals and coal

WCRC and CDL is a somewhat different case because that's about the direct safety of passengers, but there's already a thread on that.

 

[Mountain Man]

Net Zero

The key word being Net. Net does not imply there will no CO2 emissions

But it already is consigned to history and has been for more than fifty years (in the same way as carting stuff around using the canal network is). The idea of heritage railways (and restored canals and canal vessels) is to display that history so that people can see it as it was.

Not really. It shows selective elements appropriate to society at a point in time. We don't have to have horse dragged barges to demonstrate Britain's canal and inland waterway history. So if realism of propulsion can be ignored on the canals, why can't it be on the railways?

 

[Magdalia]

The key word being Net. Net does not imply there will no CO2 emissions

Indeed. The Western Locomotive Association already offset their carbon emissions.

Whizzo Woods reaches 300 Trees! - Western Locomotive Association

During January 2024, the WLA's carbon off-setting scheme run by Trees for Life, reached an astonishing 300 Trees! The scheme was introduced in 2021 with the objective to purchase at least 62 trees each year to help off-set an estimated 15 tonnes of carbon each year, through the WLA's locomotive operations. Thanks to everyone who has supported this scheme, especially to those who have bought a tree!

Trees for Life is a rewilding charity based in Scotland, committed to creating large-scale environmental change in the Scottish Highlands. Focused on restoring the once-extensive Caledonian forest, the charity’s vision includes the rejuvenation of entire ecosystems. Their efforts aim to foster biodiversity and encourage the natural processes that sustain life in our ancient woodlands.

 

[Enthusiast]

So if realism of propulsion can be ignored on the canals, why can't it be on the railways?

Perhaps because for three quarters of its history the UK's railway system was powered predominantly by steam and if you ask many people why they visit heritage railways they will tell you it's because they want to see steam locomotives in action. With canals, the "permanent way" has an attraction all of its own that can be enjoyed without any vessels being present. With a railway that is not so and it is the locos and rolling stock that provide the principle attraction. There is also a substantial difference in spectacle between a canal barge plodding along a canal (whatever its method of propulsion) and a large steam locomotive in full flight.

It comes down to what the country wants to do. If it wants to consign working coal-fired locomotives entirely to history so as to make a negligible difference to the nation's carbon emissions (which in turn make a negligible difference to total global emissions), then so be it. If, as part of that aim, the country is prepared to sanction the annual burning of 7m tons of freshly felled timber but baulks at the idea of burning a few thousand tons of coal to keep a significant piece of history alive, it demonstrates to me that the lunatics have taken over the asylum. Either that, or the "creative accounting" which sees the emissions from Drax as "net zero" is far more persuasive (or perhaps those accepting it are far more gullible) than I imagined.

In any event, the loss of the steel plant which is the topic of this thread is simply a manifestation of climate-change policies. The UK’s steel industry has been in decline for decades, mainly because of competition from abroad where cheaper labour and energy costs are the norm. But the reason that decline has accelerated recently is down to one thing – you cannot make steel on an industrial scale and profitably without burning coal. The UK will not countenance burning coal so steel cannot be made here. It’s as simple as that, and what remains of the UK's steel industry will die a death, probably sooner rather than later. No, far better to contract out a strategically vital industry to countries with unstable or unreliable regimes and ship their products here (if and when they are available at whatever price). So long as we don't burn the coal that's required that's all that matters and it may be that the only places historical steam locomotives will operate in future will be China, India or the USA. They burn about three-quarters of all the world's coal between them and don't seem particularly fussed about it (China's consumption - more than the rest of the world put together - increased by more than 12% between 2017 and 2022). Alongside that, planting a few trees is simply peeing in the wind.

 

[eldomtom2]

If, as part of that aim, the country is prepared to sanction the annual burning of 7m tons of freshly felled timber but baulks at the idea of burning a few thousand tons of coal to keep a significant piece of history alive, it demonstrates to me that the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

Where, exactly, has the country "baulked" at burning coal in steam locos?

 

[Magdalia]

The UK’s steel industry has been in decline for decades, mainly because of competition from abroad where cheaper labour and energy costs are the norm. But the reason that decline has accelerated recently is down to one thing – you cannot make steel on an industrial scale and profitably without burning coal. The UK will not countenance burning coal so steel cannot be made here.

You miss out a key factor here, which is iron ore.

The UK steel industry has been in decline for decades, but the main reason for that is because the UK does not, and never had, a decent supply of high quality domestically sourced iron ore.

Given the costs of mining and transportation, locations with lots of high quality iron ore available locally will, other things being equal, be able to make steel more cheaply from iron ore than locations that don't. Other things aren't equal, the energy and labour costs do matter, but they are secondary. The UK steel industry would need very cheap coal and labour to overcome the handicap of not having high quality iron ore nearby.

In the 1970s the UK steel industry tried to get round this by switching from domestically sourced low grade ore (eg High Dyke to Scunthorpe) to importing higher grade ore (eg Scunthorpe's ore coming in through Immingham), but it was only ever going to be a temporary solution.

Economically the UK steel industry can't compete by importing iron ore and making steel in a blast furnace with lots of expensive labour, the coal issue is irrelevant. But the UK can make steel by recycling in an electric arc furnace, especially if it can get cheap electricity from renewables and use less labour, and that's what is being proposed for Port Talbot.

But the main reason for the UK retaining a domestic steel industry is strategic, not economic. And a domestic steel industry that relies on imported iron ore does not meet the strategic objective, all the enemy has to do is sink the ships carrying the iron ore.

 

[nwales58]

Solution: heritage coal mine mining heritage south wales steam coal using authentic victorian methods and standards for heritage steam industrial applications only.

Plenty of volunteers could make the costs work.

 

[paul1609]

Solution: heritage coal mine mining heritage south wales steam coal using authentic victorian methods and standards for heritage steam industrial applications only.

Plenty of volunteers could make the costs work.

No good for us in England. The coal would take longer to get from South Wales with the Welsh anti road policies than by ship from Columbia.

 

[31160]

Solution: heritage coal mine mining heritage south wales steam coal using authentic victorian methods and standards for heritage steam industrial applications only.

Plenty of volunteers could make the costs work.

Who do you think would volunteer to work in a coal mine exactly??

 

[Gwr12345]

Who do you think would volunteer to work in a coal mine exactly??

Children might work? Really cheap, and they fit in small spaces!

 

[eldomtom2]

Children might work? Really cheap, and they fit in small spaces!

As has been pointed out before, plenty of today's children are Minecraft fans...

 

[Enthusiast]

Where, exactly, has the country "baulked" at burning coal in steam locos?

Nowhere - yet. But there are suggestions on here that it probably will:

Whilst there will be much hand wringing and sympathetic noises from the political classes the use of coal will be consigned to history and most heritage railway steam locomotives will see out their days in a museum or on a plinth.

 

[eldomtom2]

Nowhere - yet. But there are suggestions on here that it probably will:

By people who share your politics. I've yet to hear anything from the people who would supposedly be doing the baulking.

 

[nwales58]

No good for us in England. The coal would take longer to get from South Wales with the Welsh anti road policies than by ship from Columbia.

Heritage canal or coastal shipping with transshipments. Loads of people could volunteer to re-enact those transport chains, given how many re-enact battles and the like. (For anyone still in doubt, this and the excellent suggestion of putting 12 year olds down a mine, are irony)

Off-topic: Some people actually like 20mph on the main road past their house. It is easy to whip up opinion on the internet nowadays, some of the anti-20mph furore may come from libertarian interests who don't live here. It even seems anti-Welsh to some.

 

[paul1609]

Heritage canal or coastal shipping with transshipments. Loads of people could volunteer to re-enact those transport chains, given how many re-enact battles and the like. (For anyone still in doubt, this and the excellent suggestion of putting 12 year olds down a mine, are irony)

Off-topic: Some people actually like 20mph on the main road past their house. It is easy to whip up opinion on the internet nowadays, some of the anti-20mph furore may come from libertarian interests who don't live here. It even seems anti-Welsh to some.

Off topic reply are there actually any 20 mph speed limits from Merthyr down the A470 to Junction 32 of the M4 and then to English Border?
I was thinking more about the cancelation of all road projects and the apparent lack of any maintenance on the M4 in Wales much of which is still as built in the 1970s.

 

[nwales58]

Not exactly cancellation of all road projects.

Evaluation of road schemes, England as well as Wales, used to be about comparing construction costs with journey time changes plus any wider economic benefits.

Evaluation in Wales now only takes account of journey time savings for comparing options within a scheme, not for whether the scheme as a whole is worthwhile. Wales also now considers construction CO2 (elephant in the room for including CO2 in transport appraisal). So very few large schemes are worth building unless they result in massive wider benefits. Traffic management schemes are still worthwhile but, for example, but a new junction with large earthworks would now have to solve more problems than it created.

It is very early days for this and the implications are probably not widely understood, hence this attempt at a practical explanation.

Back on Port Talbot, a scheme to give access to new development increasing employment would still go ahead as would schemes, any mode, helping people to get to work elsewhere nearby. But a relief road which formerly would have been justified on time savings would probably now not.

It is a shift to looking at the whole population rather than focussing on the road user. Conveniently, it fits with reduced budgets making nothing large scale possible anyway.

Back on coal, it is history. Literally. We will get used to it.

 

[Mountain Man]

It comes down to what the country wants to do. If it wants to consign working coal-fired locomotives entirely to history so as to make a negligible difference to the nation's carbon emissions (which in turn make a negligible difference to total global emissions), then so be it. If, as part of that aim, the country is prepared to sanction the annual burning of 7m tons of freshly felled timber but baulks at the idea of burning a few thousand tons of coal to keep a significant piece of history alive, it demonstrates to me that the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

I strongly suspect a vast majority of the country couldn't care in the slightest either way.

 

[Dai Corner]

Conveniently, it fits with reduced budgets making nothing large scale possible anyway.

Well, apart from the £1bn they're spending on the A465 between Hirwaun and Dowlais Top. I guess that would facilitate any lorryloads of coal from the remaining stockpile to the Midlands and North of England.

 

[JJmoogle]

Isn't there some ancient Royal charter of rights relating to the Forest of Dean and various resources that might be related?

Yes they have ancient freemining rights to the extent they even have an exemption from recent bans of domestic house coal sales.

There's some decent steam coal under the forest that I believe some of the collieries are starting to work again too, might truly be a boon for them on a local level if there's a need for it.

 

[ac6000cw]

There was another thread discussing alternative steam loco fuels a few years ago - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/alternative-steam-locomotive-fuel.183494/

 

[alex17595]

Who do you think would volunteer to work in a coal mine exactly??

I volunteer at a mining museum and I'd love to be able to do a bit of mining. Sadly the council wouldn't give us planning permission for a measly 10 ton a year.

 

[DarloRich]

a decent supply of high quality domestically sourced iron ore.

If the iron ore of the Cleveland hills was good enough for the industrial revolution it is good enough for today. Ironopolis rises!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Off topic reply are there actually any 20 mph speed limits from Merthyr down the A470 to Junction 32 of the M4 and then to English Border?

No, there aren't.

 

[paul1609]

No, there aren't.

I thought not but wasnt 100% sure. The problem as i see it is that if your trying to replace the employment in South Wales the problem is largely the lack of good roads once over the severn bridge through the M4 Newport tunnel and Cardiff Areas (and to be fair to the Welsh Govt. the approaches to the M4/5 interchange outside Bristol). Another poster has interpretted that as some sort of anti Welsh, anti 20 mph speed limit stance. The problem is that the existing bulk industries have been suited to rail and replacement employment probably wont be.

 

[Enthusiast]

By people who share your politics. I've yet to hear anything from the people who would supposedly be doing the baulking.

Well here's a starter for ten:

I volunteer at a mining museum and I'd love to be able to do a bit of mining. Sadly the council wouldn't give us planning permission for a measly 10 ton a year.

Of course we don't know the grounds on which the application was refused. But I'd be very surprised if, somewhere in the refusal the term "net zero commitments" (or similar) did not appear.

There is little doubt in my mind that in not too long, mining and burning coal in the UK will be seen in the same light as slaying every first-born. Of course the nation will be more than happy to import steel and other energy-intensive products from countries which don't particularly care how much coal they burn. Just so long as the UK achieves "net zero" it doesn't matter where the CO2 emissions are transferred to.