The introduction of Mk3 Sleepers and old routes served by sleeper services

Discussion in 'Railway History & Nostalgia' started by WesternLancer, 20 May 2019.

  1. RLBH

    RLBH Member

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    Ships certainly were - the Scottish slang term 'steaming' for drunkenness comes from the fact that pleasure steamers weren't restricted by licencing laws. This seems to exist at least from the Customs and Exise Act 1952 which exempted passenger aircraft, passenger vessels, and railway passenger vehicles. Even public houses could serve alcohol to 'bona fide' travellers at times when they would otherwise be required to be closed.
    That clearly changed at some point - the Licencing Act 1872 specifically permitted the sale of alcohol at railway stations to 'persons arriving or departing by railroad'. Railway stations were also the only place which allowed children under 14 to be in a bar after that restriction was brought in.
     
  2. WesternLancer

    WesternLancer Member

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    Thanks for these additional and useful clarifications!
     
  3. BRX

    BRX Established Member

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    Last edited: 3 Jun 2019
  4. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

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  5. RLBH

    RLBH Member

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    Link should go to 73004 at Haywards Heath with a gauging train whose second vehicle is a Mark 3 sleeper with polystyrene blocks attached at either end and in the middle.
     
  6. BRX

    BRX Established Member

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    I've edited the link... see if that is any better
     
  7. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

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    Yes! Very interesting.
     
  8. AY1975

    AY1975 Member

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    I didn't know there had ever been a sleeper to Hull. I knew there was a Leeds sleeper (which I think used to run as a portion of the "Tynesider" to Newcastle via the Durham Coast, and which was probably withdrawn when the Mark 1s went).
     
  9. AY1975

    AY1975 Member

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    I believe that in the 1970s BR looked at refurbishing some of the Mark 1 sleepers to life-extend them, and they could then have been used on the more marginal services such as Stranraer and Barrow which at that time were expected to last at least in the short term but which would not justify investing in new vehicles. In the event, I suspect that the Taunton fire, the asbestos insulation in the Mark 1s, and the difficulty of upgrading their interiors to anything like Mark 3 standards (even though this was successfully done on some other Mark 1-based vehicles such as the Southern Region 4-CEP EMUs) put paid to this idea, and also the withdrawal of some services such as King's Cross-Newcastle via Hartlepool meant that BR did have enough Mark 3s for the remaining "secondary" services (all of which have long since gone apart from the Fort William) after all.

    That (along with the outcry from MPs who used it) might have been part of the reason why the Manchester and Liverpool sleeper survived a threat of withdrawal in the early 1980s (but finally succumbed a decade later, at the end of the 1991 summer timetable IIRC - see also the separate thread on the Manchester sleeper at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/sleepers-at-manchester.169401/).

    According to Wikipedia, BR also looked at retaining some Mark 1 sleepers to replace the existing purpose-built "Night Ferry" sleeping cars. That service could then potentially have lasted until the Channel Tunnel opened instead of being withdrawn in 1980, but that idea was also not pursued, probably for the same reasons. Also, the Mark 1s would presumably have needed considerable modifications to be able to run in France and Belgium (including fitting retractable steps for the much lower platforms than those at UK stations).
     
  10. delt1c

    delt1c Established Member

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    Used the Leeds sleeper once as it had a small amount of 08 haulage on it, when the sleepers were detatched. Sad I know did it just for the 08 and stayed awake to sample it
     
  11. WesternLancer

    WesternLancer Member

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    Impressive!
     
  12. WesternLancer

    WesternLancer Member

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    Of course this might well have been a maximum possible amount of 08 haulage it was possible to obtain?
     
  13. Shaw S Hunter

    Shaw S Hunter Established Member

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    At that particular time maybe. Later on there was a daytime shunt of portions at Sheffield which could, in theory, be had without even worrying about having a ticket. There were also sleeper shunts at Plymouth and Inverness [/OT]
     
  14. BRX

    BRX Established Member

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    Were there shunts at Inverness with passengers on? I remember watching the motorail vans being shunted onto the front of the sleeper by an 08 but not the portion with passengers on board.
     
  15. theblackwatch

    theblackwatch Emeritus Moderator

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    The shunt at Plymouth with the 08 continued right through till around 2006. There was also in at Carlisle which survived till the mid 90s, with a Mk.3 being shunted from the bay at the north end onto the back of the southbound sleeper - I remember starting an all-line with that move once to get the 08 'in the book'.
     
  16. WesternLancer

    WesternLancer Member

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    Thanks - good point, of course one forgets the elements of sleeper travel that survived that allowed passengers in bed to be joined to an existing service which survived into the privatised ere ref Plymouth (and obv the Carlisle example mentioned by Blackwatch is another case of the same).

    I have to say that ref the Plymouth carriage, it was regrettable when the DfT and FGW removed this under the review of the Night Riviera - as early arrivals to/from Plymouth are still not easy IIRC, using day trains - a point well made ref Manchester / Liverpool etc just up this thread.
     
  17. Steve Harris

    Steve Harris Member

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    Never managed the Carlisle one, but definitely did the Plymouth 08. Unfortunatly i was so engrossed in zzzzzzzzz i didn't get the number :'(
     
  18. Shaw S Hunter

    Shaw S Hunter Established Member

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    I have two entries in my haulage records from January 1989 involving the arrived "Internal" (ie from Glasgow/Edinburgh) with a note that it was for the sleepers. While the exact details escape me now I suspect it was to reposition the two sleeper vehicles against the buffers at Inverness where they could be attached to the shore supply thus ensuring the sleepers stayed warm until passenger disembarkation time while the day coaches were shunted away for cleaning and possible use on other morning departures. Given an arrival of approx 0445 this was rather important in the middle of winter!
     
  19. Steve Harris

    Steve Harris Member

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    I can concur that is what used to happen, as i did that move circa 1988.

    However, I also remember a late night/very early morning arrival at Inverness where the loco used to be shut down and the stock left in the platform until after 08.00

    Anybody have any ideas what that service was ?
     
  20. Shaw S Hunter

    Shaw S Hunter Established Member

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    The timings don't quite fit but that sounds like the "Internal" in Mk1 days. Back then that service had a decent amount of mail/newspapers/parcels traffic conveyed in vans at least one of which was worked through to the Far North line. The northbound used to run straight onto the Rose Street curve (aka Inverness avoider) before shunting back into one of the west side platforms, presumably equivalent to the current Platform 7. This allowed the through van(s) to be shunted onto the first Far North train (approx 0600 departure) with the loco going back onto the train to provide steam heat to the sleepers but with the whole train remaining in place. That certainly happened on my first ever use of a sleeper way back in 1979. There was a balancing working with the last southbound Far North train of the day also using the Rose Street curve before shunting into an east side platform for the same ease of interchange.
     
  21. WesternLancer

    WesternLancer Member

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    Can't seem to find the thread that mentioned the increasing rarity of Mk1 sleepers surviving and that there was still one at the Bluebell railway of only 5 or 6 still surviving.

    Also found this link to a pre Mk1 1952 build LMS design sleeper that may be of interest, including interior pics, that they have at Bluebell.
    https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/398.html

    one of 3 they have similar
    https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/car_list.html

    as well as this Mk1
    https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/staff_qos.html
     
  22. Steve Harris

    Steve Harris Member

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    Unfortunately, it's not that. The train was Mk II stock and went straight into the most easterly platform, the engine was shut down and left there.

    I did it in either 1987 or 88 and slept in the seats and was the last person to get off at 8am ish.
     
  23. AY1975

    AY1975 Member

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    I thought Mark 3s were banned from the Central and South-Eastern divisions of the Southern (which I thought was why InterCity Cross-Country, latterly Virgin Cross-Country, was never able to run HSTs to Brighton, only 47s and Mark 2s). Or are they only banned from the South-Eastern?

    Does anyone know why Mark 3s can run on the South-Western division of the SR but not the Central or South-Eastern? I believe that it is to do with restricted lineside clearances.
     
  24. 30907

    30907 Established Member

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    The SE was historically tight for gauge clearance (not just down to Hastings!) but the 442s operated on the Central and they are 23m and Mk 3 derived IIRC.
     
  25. BRX

    BRX Established Member

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    Just the other week I filmed a couple of mk3 sleepers come through south london as part of the consist of the northern belle - in that case they were just running between victoria and hither green though.

    So obviously they aren't barred from the whole of the SE.

    The 442s ran to eastbourne for a while didn't they?
     
  26. Highlandspring

    Highlandspring Established Member

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    Are the restrictions on the former Southern Region not caused by the suspension swing links on the bogies? HSTs operating over third rail lines having to be ‘SSL’ (short swing link) fitted but obviously isn’t an issue for the class 442s.
     
  27. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

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    I think that’s correct. I’m sure that’s come up on here a few times now.
     
  28. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    Probably not the whole of the South Western. 444s were banned from many of the more minor routes at the time of introduction and I presume still are, and these are also of similar dimensions to Mk3s.
     
  29. 30907

    30907 Established Member

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    Yes indeed. But the SSL ones could presumably have been cleared on any route the 442s used.
    The answer may be that no-one ever cleared them for CD/SED routes because no-one (aka XC) wanted them to run there. Come to think of it, I doubt if the 442s were cleared for the CD until actually needed by GEx.
     
  30. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    SSL bogies are needed, but that doesn’t explain why South East and Central divisions are so restricted.

    There are plenty of HST vehicles with SSL bogies - back in Virgin days the entire XC fleet was so fitted.
     

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