The introduction of Mk3 Sleepers and old routes served by sleeper services

RLBH

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certainly not now, but then was an era of much stricter licensing so it may well have been the case in theory, hence my musing, though I rather suspect trains and ships (in domestic waters) etc may have been exempt back then.
Ships certainly were - the Scottish slang term 'steaming' for drunkenness comes from the fact that pleasure steamers weren't restricted by licencing laws. This seems to exist at least from the Customs and Exise Act 1952 which exempted passenger aircraft, passenger vessels, and railway passenger vehicles. Even public houses could serve alcohol to 'bona fide' travellers at times when they would otherwise be required to be closed.
Not they didn't, but specifically only on trains themselves. At soon as you stepped on the platform normal laws applied, an enthusiastic bar steward got done for selling alcohol on a platform before the departure of a train at some time in the 1970s.
That clearly changed at some point - the Licencing Act 1872 specifically permitted the sale of alcohol at railway stations to 'persons arriving or departing by railroad'. Railway stations were also the only place which allowed children under 14 to be in a bar after that restriction was brought in.
 
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WesternLancer

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Ships certainly were - the Scottish slang term 'steaming' for drunkenness comes from the fact that pleasure steamers weren't restricted by licencing laws. This seems to exist at least from the Customs and Exise Act 1952 which exempted passenger aircraft, passenger vessels, and railway passenger vehicles. Even public houses could serve alcohol to 'bona fide' travellers at times when they would otherwise be required to be closed.

That clearly changed at some point - the Licencing Act 1872 specifically permitted the sale of alcohol at railway stations to 'persons arriving or departing by railroad'. Railway stations were also the only place which allowed children under 14 to be in a bar after that restriction was brought in.
Thanks for these additional and useful clarifications!
 

RLBH

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I’m just getting a photo of 50001 at Brighton BRX?
Link should go to 73004 at Haywards Heath with a gauging train whose second vehicle is a Mark 3 sleeper with polystyrene blocks attached at either end and in the middle.
 

AY1975

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As well as the services mentioned above, in the 70s there were sleeper services from London to places such as Hull
I didn't know there had ever been a sleeper to Hull. I knew there was a Leeds sleeper (which I think used to run as a portion of the "Tynesider" to Newcastle via the Durham Coast, and which was probably withdrawn when the Mark 1s went).
 

AY1975

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Talking of fires, no one has mentioned that the introduction of the Mk 3 sleepers was delayed by the 1978 fire at Taunton in the Mk 1 stock. Design work on the Mk3s was held up until the report on the Taunton fire was available so that the Mk3s could include extra fire precautions. But I've no idea how much delay was caused......
I believe that in the 1970s BR looked at refurbishing some of the Mark 1 sleepers to life-extend them, and they could then have been used on the more marginal services such as Stranraer and Barrow which at that time were expected to last at least in the short term but which would not justify investing in new vehicles. In the event, I suspect that the Taunton fire, the asbestos insulation in the Mark 1s, and the difficulty of upgrading their interiors to anything like Mark 3 standards (even though this was successfully done on some other Mark 1-based vehicles such as the Southern Region 4-CEP EMUs) put paid to this idea, and also the withdrawal of some services such as King's Cross-Newcastle via Hartlepool meant that BR did have enough Mark 3s for the remaining "secondary" services (all of which have long since gone apart from the Fort William) after all.

That (along with the outcry from MPs who used it) might have been part of the reason why the Manchester and Liverpool sleeper survived a threat of withdrawal in the early 1980s (but finally succumbed a decade later, at the end of the 1991 summer timetable IIRC - see also the separate thread on the Manchester sleeper at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/sleepers-at-manchester.169401/).

According to Wikipedia, BR also looked at retaining some Mark 1 sleepers to replace the existing purpose-built "Night Ferry" sleeping cars. That service could then potentially have lasted until the Channel Tunnel opened instead of being withdrawn in 1980, but that idea was also not pursued, probably for the same reasons. Also, the Mark 1s would presumably have needed considerable modifications to be able to run in France and Belgium (including fitting retractable steps for the much lower platforms than those at UK stations).
 

delt1c

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I didn't know there had ever been a sleeper to Hull. I knew there was a Leeds sleeper (which I think used to run as a portion of the "Tynesider" to Newcastle via the Durham Coast, and which was probably withdrawn when the Mark 1s went).
Used the Leeds sleeper once as it had a small amount of 08 haulage on it, when the sleepers were detatched. Sad I know did it just for the 08 and stayed awake to sample it
 

WesternLancer

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Used the Leeds sleeper once as it had a small amount of 08 haulage on it, when the sleepers were detatched. Sad I know did it just for the 08 and stayed awake to sample it
Of course this might well have been a maximum possible amount of 08 haulage it was possible to obtain?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Of course this might well have been a maximum possible amount of 08 haulage it was possible to obtain?
At that particular time maybe. Later on there was a daytime shunt of portions at Sheffield which could, in theory, be had without even worrying about having a ticket. There were also sleeper shunts at Plymouth and Inverness [/OT]
 

BRX

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At that particular time maybe. Later on there was a daytime shunt of portions at Sheffield which could, in theory, be had without even worrying about having a ticket. There were also sleeper shunts at Plymouth and Inverness [/OT]
Were there shunts at Inverness with passengers on? I remember watching the motorail vans being shunted onto the front of the sleeper by an 08 but not the portion with passengers on board.
 

theblackwatch

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At that particular time maybe. Later on there was a daytime shunt of portions at Sheffield which could, in theory, be had without even worrying about having a ticket. There were also sleeper shunts at Plymouth and Inverness [/OT]
The shunt at Plymouth with the 08 continued right through till around 2006. There was also in at Carlisle which survived till the mid 90s, with a Mk.3 being shunted from the bay at the north end onto the back of the southbound sleeper - I remember starting an all-line with that move once to get the 08 'in the book'.
 

WesternLancer

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At that particular time maybe. Later on there was a daytime shunt of portions at Sheffield which could, in theory, be had without even worrying about having a ticket. There were also sleeper shunts at Plymouth and Inverness [/OT]
Thanks - good point, of course one forgets the elements of sleeper travel that survived that allowed passengers in bed to be joined to an existing service which survived into the privatised ere ref Plymouth (and obv the Carlisle example mentioned by Blackwatch is another case of the same).

I have to say that ref the Plymouth carriage, it was regrettable when the DfT and FGW removed this under the review of the Night Riviera - as early arrivals to/from Plymouth are still not easy IIRC, using day trains - a point well made ref Manchester / Liverpool etc just up this thread.
 

Steve Harris

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The shunt at Plymouth with the 08 continued right through till around 2006. There was also in at Carlisle which survived till the mid 90s, with a Mk.3 being shunted from the bay at the north end onto the back of the southbound sleeper - I remember starting an all-line with that move once to get the 08 'in the book'.
Never managed the Carlisle one, but definitely did the Plymouth 08. Unfortunatly i was so engrossed in zzzzzzzzz i didn't get the number :'(
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Were there shunts at Inverness with passengers on? I remember watching the motorail vans being shunted onto the front of the sleeper by an 08 but not the portion with passengers on board.
I have two entries in my haulage records from January 1989 involving the arrived "Internal" (ie from Glasgow/Edinburgh) with a note that it was for the sleepers. While the exact details escape me now I suspect it was to reposition the two sleeper vehicles against the buffers at Inverness where they could be attached to the shore supply thus ensuring the sleepers stayed warm until passenger disembarkation time while the day coaches were shunted away for cleaning and possible use on other morning departures. Given an arrival of approx 0445 this was rather important in the middle of winter!
 

Steve Harris

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I have two entries in my haulage records from January 1989 involving the arrived "Internal" (ie from Glasgow/Edinburgh) with a note that it was for the sleepers. While the exact details escape me now I suspect it was to reposition the two sleeper vehicles against the buffers at Inverness where they could be attached to the shore supply thus ensuring the sleepers stayed warm until passenger disembarkation time while the day coaches were shunted away for cleaning and possible use on other morning departures. Given an arrival of approx 0445 this was rather important in the middle of winter!
I can concur that is what used to happen, as i did that move circa 1988.

However, I also remember a late night/very early morning arrival at Inverness where the loco used to be shut down and the stock left in the platform until after 08.00

Anybody have any ideas what that service was ?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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I can concur that is what used to happen, as i did that move circa 1988.

However, I also remember a late night/very early morning arrival at Inverness where the loco used to be shut down and the stock left in the platform until after 08.00

Anybody have any ideas what that service was ?
The timings don't quite fit but that sounds like the "Internal" in Mk1 days. Back then that service had a decent amount of mail/newspapers/parcels traffic conveyed in vans at least one of which was worked through to the Far North line. The northbound used to run straight onto the Rose Street curve (aka Inverness avoider) before shunting back into one of the west side platforms, presumably equivalent to the current Platform 7. This allowed the through van(s) to be shunted onto the first Far North train (approx 0600 departure) with the loco going back onto the train to provide steam heat to the sleepers but with the whole train remaining in place. That certainly happened on my first ever use of a sleeper way back in 1979. There was a balancing working with the last southbound Far North train of the day also using the Rose Street curve before shunting into an east side platform for the same ease of interchange.
 

WesternLancer

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Can't seem to find the thread that mentioned the increasing rarity of Mk1 sleepers surviving and that there was still one at the Bluebell railway of only 5 or 6 still surviving.

Also found this link to a pre Mk1 1952 build LMS design sleeper that may be of interest, including interior pics, that they have at Bluebell.
https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/398.html

one of 3 they have similar
https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/car_list.html

as well as this Mk1
https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/staff_qos.html
 

Steve Harris

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The timings don't quite fit but that sounds like the "Internal" in Mk1 days. Back then that service had a decent amount of mail/newspapers/parcels traffic conveyed in vans at least one of which was worked through to the Far North line. The northbound used to run straight onto the Rose Street curve (aka Inverness avoider) before shunting back into one of the west side platforms, presumably equivalent to the current Platform 7. This allowed the through van(s) to be shunted onto the first Far North train (approx 0600 departure) with the loco going back onto the train to provide steam heat to the sleepers but with the whole train remaining in place. That certainly happened on my first ever use of a sleeper way back in 1979. There was a balancing working with the last southbound Far North train of the day also using the Rose Street curve before shunting into an east side platform for the same ease of interchange.
Unfortunately, it's not that. The train was Mk II stock and went straight into the most easterly platform, the engine was shut down and left there.

I did it in either 1987 or 88 and slept in the seats and was the last person to get off at 8am ish.
 

AY1975

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I just happened upon this photo

https://andygibbs.zenfolio.com/p726940309/e3c736c48

Indicative of the number of mk3 sleepers going spare at the time?
I thought Mark 3s were banned from the Central and South-Eastern divisions of the Southern (which I thought was why InterCity Cross-Country, latterly Virgin Cross-Country, was never able to run HSTs to Brighton, only 47s and Mark 2s). Or are they only banned from the South-Eastern?

Does anyone know why Mark 3s can run on the South-Western division of the SR but not the Central or South-Eastern? I believe that it is to do with restricted lineside clearances.
 

30907

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I thought Mark 3s were banned from the Central and South-Eastern divisions of the Southern (which I thought was why InterCity Cross-Country, latterly Virgin Cross-Country, was never able to run HSTs to Brighton, only 47s and Mark 2s). Or are they only banned from the South-Eastern?

Does anyone know why Mark 3s can run on the South-Western division of the SR but not the Central or South-Eastern? I believe that it is to do with restricted lineside clearances.
The SE was historically tight for gauge clearance (not just down to Hastings!) but the 442s operated on the Central and they are 23m and Mk 3 derived IIRC.
 

BRX

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I thought Mark 3s were banned from the Central and South-Eastern divisions of the Southern (which I thought was why InterCity Cross-Country, latterly Virgin Cross-Country, was never able to run HSTs to Brighton, only 47s and Mark 2s). Or are they only banned from the South-Eastern?

Does anyone know why Mark 3s can run on the South-Western division of the SR but not the Central or South-Eastern? I believe that it is to do with restricted lineside clearances.
Just the other week I filmed a couple of mk3 sleepers come through south london as part of the consist of the northern belle - in that case they were just running between victoria and hither green though.

So obviously they aren't barred from the whole of the SE.

The 442s ran to eastbourne for a while didn't they?
 

Highlandspring

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Are the restrictions on the former Southern Region not caused by the suspension swing links on the bogies? HSTs operating over third rail lines having to be ‘SSL’ (short swing link) fitted but obviously isn’t an issue for the class 442s.
 

Cowley

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Are the restrictions on the former Southern Region not caused by the suspension swing links on the bogies? HSTs operating over third rail lines having to be ‘SSL’ (short swing link) fitted but obviously isn’t an issue for the class 442s.
I think that’s correct. I’m sure that’s come up on here a few times now.
 

edwin_m

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Does anyone know why Mark 3s can run on the South-Western division of the SR but not the Central or South-Eastern? I believe that it is to do with restricted lineside clearances.
Probably not the whole of the South Western. 444s were banned from many of the more minor routes at the time of introduction and I presume still are, and these are also of similar dimensions to Mk3s.
 

30907

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I think that’s correct. I’m sure that’s come up on here a few times now.
Yes indeed. But the SSL ones could presumably have been cleared on any route the 442s used.
The answer may be that no-one ever cleared them for CD/SED routes because no-one (aka XC) wanted them to run there. Come to think of it, I doubt if the 442s were cleared for the CD until actually needed by GEx.
 

43096

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Are the restrictions on the former Southern Region not caused by the suspension swing links on the bogies? HSTs operating over third rail lines having to be ‘SSL’ (short swing link) fitted but obviously isn’t an issue for the class 442s.
SSL bogies are needed, but that doesn’t explain why South East and Central divisions are so restricted.

There are plenty of HST vehicles with SSL bogies - back in Virgin days the entire XC fleet was so fitted.
 

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