-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
The jump from class 423s to 465s and later 707s?
- Thread starter frankmoh
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
bramling
Veteran Member
It wouldn’t have been 423 to Networker, but EPB to Networker in most cases.
At the time yes it was quite a transformation, for a number of reasons, not least because the EPB fleet had been left to get into something of a state (Southeastern metro trains being neglected unfortunately isn’t a new issue), and had also unfortunately picked up some negative associations such as the Cannon Street collision and the unfortunate compartment murder.
It took very little time at all for the Networkers to get into a state. By the late 90s, when many were barely 5 years old, they were already heavily vandalised and looking tatty inside. Apart from the heavily refurbished 465/9 fleet the rest have never really recovered from their Connex days.
I never really see slashed seats or graffiti on 465s, but I do agree they are all really dirty. The only trains worse in London are probably the 1972 stock.
In relation to the 1991 Cannon Street crash, I find it hard to believe that coaches were still in Rail Blue livery in 1991. You never see EMUs hauling coaches nowadays.
Also what was the compartment murder? I have never heard of it but it sounds grisly to say the least.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Unrefurbished units were left in blue and grey; only refurbished ones received NSE livery.
We didn't then; that's just a refurbished unit coupled to an unrefurbished unit.
My assumptions are wrong then. Also the fact that one of the coaches was based on an underframe from 1928 is shocking. Thank goodness that the oldest SE train now is "only" 34 years old.
bramling
Veteran Member
A lady was tragically murdered in a compartment on an Orpington to Victoria train, a case that has sadly never been solved. It was quite a big event at the time.
I assume the compartments were separated? (and no one would be there to notice?)
I wonder what they did with all the compartmented stock after it happened considering the event compared to the normal (as it is now) arrangement of rows.
bramling
Veteran Member
Yes I believe they were completely segregated conpartments.
IIRC BR were able to reform the trains as only one carriage was made up of individual compartments. So a swap was done to make certain trains have two carriages of compartments instead, which were then kept to peak hour trains as far as possible. With the remaining fairly short life of these trains this was viable.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
That was indeed the case. The body was discovered by staff when the train arrived at Victoria. March 1988. Miss Linsley was by no means the first person to be murdered in a compartment of a non-corridor train - the first documented case was in 1864, on the North London Railway - but we can hope she was the last
The unrefurbished 4EPBs (SR-design class 415/1) were reformed so that some units had no compartment trailers, and some had two - the latter were used on peak hour services only (when the chances of being alone in a compartment were minimal), and renumbered into a 55xx series, with the compartments marked with a red line at cantrail level. 32 units were so treated - the last was withdrawn in 1991.
The BR-design 4EPBs (class 415/2) were built with both trailers having some compartments, but all had been refurbished before 1988
Some unrefurbished BR-design 2EPBs (class 416/2) had half a carriage as compartments, and these were also marked with a red line. I don't think it was practical to limit these to peak hours only though.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
That makes the frame 63 years old. All Mark 1 coaches are now older than that, and there are still several in use on the network.
(Picture of 60163 "Tornado" hauling a rake of Mark 1 stock)
The frame actually withstood the collision very well, unlike the 38 year old superstructure.
Last edited:
Well I think a heritage railway is quite different from the stresses of 1990s rush hour!That was indeed the case. The body was discovered by staff when the train arrived at Victoria. March 1988. Miss Linsley was by no means the first person to be murdered in a compartment of a non-corridor train - the first documented case was in 1864, on the North London Railway - but we can hope she was the last
The unrefurbished 4EPBs (SR-design class 415/1) were reformed so that some units had no compartment trailers, and some had two - the latter were used on peak hour services only (when the chances of being alone in a compartment were minimal), and renumbered into a 55xx series, with the compartments marked with a red line at cantrail level. 32 units were so treated - the last was withdrawn in 1991.
The BR-design 4EPBs (class 415/2) were built with both trailers having some compartments, but all had been refurbished before 1988
Some unrefurbished BR-design 2EPBs (class 416/2) had half a carriage as compartments, and these were also marked with a red line. I don't think it was practical to limit these to peak hours only though.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
That makes the frame 63 years old. All Mark 1 coaches are now older than that, and there are still several in use on the network.
(Picture of 60163 "Tornado" hauling a rake of Mark 1 stock)
The frame actually withstood the collision very well, unlike the 38 year old superstructure.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
Those marks 1 are not on a heritage railway, but on National Rail. And they travel at speeds somewhat greater than the walking pace of the Cannon Street crash.
reddragon
Established Member
The problem with the old 4SUB/EPB stock was that they were Triggers brooms!
Old loco hauled stock were converted into 3SUBs in the 1911-1935 period, as time went on even new frames were built with 6 wheeler bodies paired up on them, the oldest being from the SER so pre 1900.
These were rebodied to become the class 405 4SUB all steel stock or the class 415/416 EPBs. Many of the North Kent 4EPBs gained ex 4SUB open coaches to replace the 4EPB compartment stock.
By 1991 some of these coaches had underframes that were over 80 years old! The one that collapsed & killed passengers was in a 1957 crash & had been poorly repaired.
To maintain the Triggers broom, motors, compressors & some control gear moved to the class 455/456s and whilst the motors were replaced, some parts are over 100 years old on them today
Old loco hauled stock were converted into 3SUBs in the 1911-1935 period, as time went on even new frames were built with 6 wheeler bodies paired up on them, the oldest being from the SER so pre 1900.
These were rebodied to become the class 405 4SUB all steel stock or the class 415/416 EPBs. Many of the North Kent 4EPBs gained ex 4SUB open coaches to replace the 4EPB compartment stock.
By 1991 some of these coaches had underframes that were over 80 years old! The one that collapsed & killed passengers was in a 1957 crash & had been poorly repaired.
To maintain the Triggers broom, motors, compressors & some control gear moved to the class 455/456s and whilst the motors were replaced, some parts are over 100 years old on them today
The picture of the steam train is misleading. Do you have pictures of the Mark 1s coupled to anything electric or diesel?
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 16,982
I'm not sure why it is misleading. But try this: both electric and diesel traction on Mark 1s for you:
Not my video - it's at Carlisle this weekend with 87002 and 20118/132 on a railtour.
The issue at Cannon Street was telescoping of the intermediate couplings within an EPB set, which did not have Buckeye couplers, nor even 3-link couplings and four buffers, two each, but just a simple single centre buffer and rubbing plate. These gave far less protection against telescoping, as can be seen that the Buckeyes between units did not telescope at all here, just a centre buffer well down the formation.
All a bit surprising, as the Southern Railway (and the LNER) were pioneers with Buckeyes, describing its suppression of telescoping as a major upside. Express stock had Buckeyes throughout.
All a bit surprising, as the Southern Railway (and the LNER) were pioneers with Buckeyes, describing its suppression of telescoping as a major upside. Express stock had Buckeyes throughout.
There was plenty of Rail Blue stock elsewhere in the country beyond 1991! Many first gen DMUs lingered in Blue until around 1992/3, the West Midlands still had some into 1994. The EMUs in Blue lasted even longer, I'm sure there were 304s around in 1995/6 in Blue Grey, I think some of the 508s were still in that scheme in about 1998!
norbitonflyer
Established Member
Why is it misleading? The steam locomotive in the picture was built in 2008.
Here is the Royal Scotsman in 2023, with a class 66, in the Glasgow suburbs - the coaches are 1960-vintage, originally built for Pullman services on the ECML
The underframe did not collapse. It was strong enough to slice through the flimsy superstructure of the adjacent carriage - that is what caused the damage.
It is also not certain that either of the fatalities had actually been in that carriage - the accident report says that 279 people were taken to hospital (that total including the two who later died) but no record was kept of which carriage any individual casualty had been in.
Last edited:
I am not really into steam so I thought Tornado would be old.. It's nice to know that a steam loco was made so recently though.
EveningStar
Member
Remember a lot of discussion at the time that a lot of injuries were people in open doorways trying to do the slam door run before it stops. And none of the injuries were going to admit to this because it would affect their claims.
reddragon
Established Member
This is a summary from the Cannon Street RAIB report from 8/1/1991 published 2/3/1992
It summarises the history of the 4 coaches of the centre unit 5484, which are the ones that collapsed on impact. The BR standard units either side remained intact.
Tracked
Established Member
Was having a look at the accident report
Mentions the slam doors, but also that the structural strength of the Southern design was worse than the British Rail design (I'm assuming Mk1's are included in this) as a separate point. Page 38
Mentions the slam doors, but also that the structural strength of the Southern design was worse than the British Rail design (I'm assuming Mk1's are included in this) as a separate point. Page 38
norbitonflyer
Established Member
Not so - see below
The coach with the 1934 underframe (14046), which was involved in the 1958 collision, "was at theb rear of the train and survived the collision". It therefore was not "badly repaired". It did not need to be repaired at all.
And no one really called them 423s. They were known as VEPs
I was a student at the time, and saw the EPBs replaced by Networkers, and then a decade later the VEPs, CIGs and CEPs replaced by Electrostars and Desiros. Growing up near Wimbledon, I also just remember SUBs & EPBs being replaced by 507s and 455s on the SW, as well as the transition from 1st Gen DMU and LHCS to Sprinter.
The change from slam door unit to Networker/Electrostar/Desiro was far greater than between (say) Networker and 707. The impact was on the interiors (wood & lino replaced by modern plastics) and general environment (especially where the new trains were air conditioned). Commuting into Charing Cross and Victoria in the late 90s/early noughties, I really did not miss the steamed up windows and steamy inside of an Mk1 based unit on a cold damp morning. In contrast, the difference between (refurbished) 455 and 707 on the SWML was pretty trivial.
The oldest in the crash was 64 years old. Which vehicles were 80+ years old?
IanM
Member
- Joined
- 20 Aug 2013
- Messages
- 86
I think the really big change was for traincrew. EPB was as simple as trains could be. Networker was, for its time, stuffed full of technology which drivers had to get to grips with. A massive change, and one which was probably very difficult for some. Think of stepping from a Morris Minor to a Tesla.
The EPBs were developed on Class 405s/4Subs which were themselves built upon the earlier 3Subs from 1915. There was probably a few people in London who only ever rode on the Subs/EPBs before they died, and probably a lot more people whose entire working lives was spent commuting on an EPB.
coppercapped
Established Member
I'm old enough to remember and ride on or behind examples of the Maunsell N15 and U classes and well remember being hauled by 'Howard of Effingham' from Southampton back home to Reading stopping at Reading West on a northbound interregional train. At school in Reading and college in London I travelled on or saw NOLs, SUBs, PULs, PANs and CORs. The latter were used on the Portsmouth Direct and were sometimes called 'Nelsons' because they only had one eye...
What are these trains with the funny numbers of which you speak...?
What are these trains with the funny numbers of which you speak...?
I suppose the 465 would be a 4NSE standing for "Networker, South East". I wonder why the Class 450 got one of these "old" designations of 4DES even though it's from 2003.I'm old enough to remember and ride on or behind examples of the Maunsell N15 and U classes and well remember being hauled by 'Howard of Effingham' from Southampton back home to Reading stopping at Reading West on a northbound interregional train. At school in Reading and college in London I travelled on or saw NOLs, SUBs, PULs, PANs and CORs. The latter were used on the Portsmouth Direct and were sometimes called 'Nelsons' because they only had one eye...
What are these trains with the funny numbers of which you speak...?
norbitonflyer
Established Member
My uncle was probably one of them. I came close to commuting my entire working life on 455s.