The next UK HSR (High Speed Rail) project?

[HSTEd]

Not the buildings, the people and business. A high-speed station box is extremely unlikely to be a deep-level bored tunnel.

Well we do have access to ~20m diameter tunnel bores.

 

[zwk500]

Well we do have access to ~20m diameter tunnel bores.

It's not the technical requirements, it's the operational ones. Fire & evacuation issues have been an immense challenge for Crossrail. I don't imagine a terminating station underground will be any less strict.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's not the technical requirements, it's the operational ones. Fire & evacuation issues have been an immense challenge for Crossrail. I don't imagine a terminating station underground will be any less strict.

Safety, circulation space, ventilation etc - all the issues that led to the fantasy HS2 “Euston Cross” underground station being declared impossible to build…

 

[Bald Rick]

Well we do have access to ~20m diameter tunnel bores.

We do, but not necessarily ~20m diameter space to put them under central London. Nor anywhere to start boring them.

 

[MattRat]

On the topic of building a new station for the proposed South Coast line (I hope that's a decent enough name), what exactly warrants the station being needed, when Old Oak Common would already be there?

 

[HSTEd]

On the topic of building a new station for the proposed South Coast line (I hope that's a decent enough name), what exactly warrants the station being needed, when Old Oak Common would already be there?

Old Oak Common has access to Crossrail, and at a push the Central Line and a couple of Overground lines.

That can't compete with the onward transport systems available to one of the established termini.

Crossrail might be high capacity - but it is not that high capacity.

Or HS2 wouldn't be going to Euston.

 

[MattRat]

Old Oak Common has access to Crossrail, and at a push the Central Line and a couple of Overground lines.

That can't compete with the onward transport systems available to one of the established termini.

Crossrail might be high capacity - but it is not that high capacity.

Or HS2 wouldn't be going to Euston.

Aren't they building more connections to Euston regardless? To deal with extra capacity. Why can't they do that at OOC?

 

[Bald Rick]

On the topic of building a new station for the proposed South Coast line (I hope that's a decent enough name), what exactly warrants the station being needed, when Old Oak Common would already be there?

OOC will be full of trains, and there’s nowhere next to it to build more station.

Aren't they building more connections to Euston regardless? To deal with extra capacity. Why can't they do that at OOC?

No, no new connections at Euston; just a new passageway to an existing connection (Circle / Met).

 

[HSTEd]

OOC will be full of trains, and there’s nowhere next to it to build more station.

Well you could extend onto the parkland of Wormwood Scrubs, but I know people are touchy about those.

 

[AndrewE]

OOC will be full of trains, and there’s nowhere next to it to build more station.

You don't need much (if any) more station. Some trains will still be going on S to Euston, so wouldn't need extra dwell time (maybe not even need to call), and those going south wouldn't be terminating so wouldn't block a platform for long either.

 

[MattRat]

You don't need much (if any) more station. Some trains will still be going on S to Euston, so wouldn't need extra dwell time (maybe not even need to call), and those going south wouldn't be terminating so wouldn't block a platform for long either.

That's if all trains are through trains. If London wants a service personally tailored for them, and that seems very likely if you take one look at how HS2 will work, then you'll need a terminus platform for that service.

 

[AndrewE]

That's if all trains are through trains. If London wants a service personally tailored for them, and that seems very likely if you take one look at how HS2 will work, then you'll need a terminus platform for that service.

this is about whether Brighton line trains (i.e trains continuing S off HS2) could be accommodated at OOC. I don't think anyone has suggested terminating any trains at Old Oak. I did say that Euston teminators, off HS2 - obviously, (which are now a given) might not all need to call at OOC, freeing up a bit of platform time/capacity for non-Euston trains emptying out at Old Oak.
I wouldn't think it is worth considering a HS line just to serve Brighton and London.

 

[MattRat]

this is about whether Brighton line trains (i.e trains continuing S off HS2) could be accommodated at OOC. I don't think anyone has suggested terminating any trains at Old Oak. I did say that Euston teminators, off HS2 - obviously, (which are now a given) might not all need to call at OOC, freeing up a bit of platform time/capacity for non-Euston trains emptying out at Old Oak.
I wouldn't think it is worth considering a HS line just to serve Brighton and London.

But it has to also 'serve' London. We both know it still would, but try telling that to the politicians who are needed to greenlight the project.

 

[Bald Rick]

You don't need much (if any) more station.

OOC will be at capacity. All trains have to stop, or none can stop. If you want more trains, you need more station, and there’s no space.

 

[AndrewE]

OOC will be at capacity. All trains have to stop, or none can stop. If you want more trains, you need more station, and there’s no space.

Why do all trains have to stop? That rule doesn't apply anywhere else on the network (apart from at termini) and alternate Euston non-stops will leave time for the stopper to do its business and continue to Brighton... Are you sure that even one non-platform through line couldn't be squeezed in?
Maybe just "not invented here!"

And I don't want more trains, I want half (?) of them (those from HS2) to go somewhere more useful than Euston...

 

[The Planner]

Why do all trains have to stop? That rule doesn't apply anywhere else on the network (apart from at termini) and alternate Euston non-stops will leave time for the stopper to do its business and continue to Brighton... Are you sure that even one non-platform through line couldn't be squeezed in?
Maybe just "not invented here!"

And I don't want more trains, I want half (?) of them (those from HS2) to go somewhere more useful than Euston...

It doesnt apply anywhere else because you arent throwing trains that close together over a prolonged period of time.

 

[MattRat]

Why do all trains have to stop? That rule doesn't apply anywhere else on the network (apart from at termini) and alternate Euston non-stops will leave time for the stopper to do its business and continue to Brighton... Are you sure that even one non-platform through line couldn't be squeezed in?
Maybe just "not invented here!"

And I don't want more trains, I want half (?) of them (those from HS2) to go somewhere more useful than Euston...

It's probable you could do it via a through service. Problem is, London will want one that ends in London, and then you into space issues.

 

[waverley47]

Why do all trains have to stop? That rule doesn't apply anywhere else on the network (apart from at termini) and alternate Euston non-stops will leave time for the stopper to do its business and continue to Brighton...

This is absolutely a thing, in many stations across the network.

At every station where stopping a train on the running line would mean blocking said running line for a train at minimum headway behind it, everything stops.

Think Haymarket, which is the simplest example. Everything has to stop there because if not, train two would be stuck waiting for minimum headway behind train one, which had just departed the station. So you stop train two at the station, to wait for its path, and so on and so forth.

This happens in many places. Usually everywhere that there are trains on minimum headway in a two track station, but in other places as well. (Haymarket in this example counts as two parallel two track stations, with minimum headway and platforms on every line).

Other examples include Manchester Piccadilly 13/14, Wakefield Westgate, Finsbury Park slow lines, all of the Overground network, Merseyrail, basically anywhere with more than about 8tph through a platform usually requires every train to stop at that platform.

 

[HSTEd]

Why do all trains have to stop? That rule doesn't apply anywhere else on the network (apart from at termini) and alternate Euston non-stops

Or the tube, or the Thameslink core, or Crossrail - all lines with similar levels of train density to HS2.

 

[Shrop]

Interesting reading, dipping into this thread for the first time during a little insomnia at strange o'clock! There are some weird and wonderful suggestions, many with merit, and obviously hugely dependent on what parameters are available.
Like many others, I've often imagined a blank canvas and how railways would be provided to serve the country if we could start again, and two already well developed, but discounted projects come to mind, namely Maglev and HSUK. The Maglev route was based on a reverse S shape, running London to Glasgow via Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh, thus taking in a lot of population. HSUK is probably more well known to people on this forum, and it always amazes me how so many people can enjoy discussing ideas such as upthread here, and yet so readily dismiss HSUK.
For me both Maglev (at least the route, even if it was operated by conventional, very fast rail), and HSUK made excellent starting points for development, yet what do we end up with thanks to the reality of British thinking? We end up with a hideously expensive project called HS2, which has upset countless numbers of people, gone massively over budget, had its most beneficial section cut out, is taking for ever, and will end up benefitting nothing like the numbers either that it should have done, nor that the Maglev route nor HSUK would have.
It would be fascinating to know what Brunel or other great engineers of the past would have made of how HS2 has developed and ended up!

 

[Bald Rick]

And I don't want more trains, I want half (?) of them (those from HS2) to go somewhere more useful than Euston...

but, the thing is, something like 90% of people on board trains to/from central London actually do want to get to/from London. It is a very useful destination!

Are you sure that even one non-platform through line couldn't be squeezed in?
Maybe just "not invented here!"

Certain. Not least because it is being built now.

and “not invented here”… thank goodness!

 

[Shrop]

but, the thing is, something like 90% of people on board trains to/from central London actually do want to get to/from London. It is a very useful destination!

While central London certainly is a major destination, there are also a great many who go there because its very hard to pass through without using London's terminal stations. The M25 is massively used to pass through/around London by road, whereas the railways don't have much in the way of London by-passes. This could give a false appearance of the centre being more of a destination than it actually is.

 

[SynthD]

The low number of bought through tickets might answer that. The one through service (Milton Keynes to Croydon) was quiet?

 

[Bald Rick]

While central London certainly is a major destination, there are also a great many who go there because its very hard to pass through without using London's terminal stations. The M25 is massively used to pass through/around London by road, whereas the railways don't have much in the way of London by-passes. This could give a false appearance of the centre being more of a destination than it actually is.

The M25 is actually not used very much to pass around London. Sure, some people do that, but from stats I’ve seen the overwhelming majority of traffic is using it for local trips that wouldn’t go anywhere near London.

 

[37424]

Well while all these suggestions are interesting I'm not convinced that anything much past HS2 2a will be built but I guess we will see if i'm still alive by then

 

[Shrop]

The M25 is actually not used very much to pass around London. Sure, some people do that, but from stats I’ve seen the overwhelming majority of traffic is using it for local trips that wouldn’t go anywhere near London.

True, but trips into Central London are more focused when it comes to rail travel (and thus potentially misleading) than they are with roads. I've seen countless errors with road forecasting due to insufficient recognition of realities, and I guess rail travel predictions (and analysis) may be similarly inexact. For example I've made countless rail journeys through London by splitting my tickets to and beyond London termini (since its VERY often cheaper to do so), as I know many others have too, so ticket purchase analysis will always mislead rail travel observations.

 

[MattRat]

Interesting reading, dipping into this thread for the first time during a little insomnia at strange o'clock! There are some weird and wonderful suggestions, many with merit, and obviously hugely dependent on what parameters are available.
Like many others, I've often imagined a blank canvas and how railways would be provided to serve the country if we could start again, and two already well developed, but discounted projects come to mind, namely Maglev and HSUK. The Maglev route was based on a reverse S shape, running London to Glasgow via Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh, thus taking in a lot of population. HSUK is probably more well known to people on this forum, and it always amazes me how so many people can enjoy discussing ideas such as upthread here, and yet so readily dismiss HSUK.
For me both Maglev (at least the route, even if it was operated by conventional, very fast rail), and HSUK made excellent starting points for development, yet what do we end up with thanks to the reality of British thinking? We end up with a hideously expensive project called HS2, which has upset countless numbers of people, gone massively over budget, had its most beneficial section cut out, is taking for ever, and will end up benefitting nothing like the numbers either that it should have done, nor that the Maglev route nor HSUK would have.
It would be fascinating to know what Brunel or other great engineers of the past would have made of how HS2 has developed and ended up!

Well while all these suggestions are interesting I'm not convinced that anything much past HS2 2a will be built but I guess we will see if i'm still alive by then

This appears to tie into HSUK, but HS2 is only really being built because the WCML is full, and there are zero alternatives. I can very much see a future where we get a repeat of this with the ECML, and something will have to be done, which is where I feel a group like HSUK will finally be allowed to shine, although possibly not fully (just look at HS2).

 

[Shrop]

This appears to tie into HSUK, but HS2 is only really being built because the WCML is full, and there are zero alternatives. I can very much see a future where we get a repeat of this with the ECML, and something will have to be done, which is where I feel a group like HSUK will finally be allowed to shine, although possibly not fully (just look at HS2).

I've never been a fan of HS2, and most of the many problems that have happened with it were predicted by 2010, by people who were ignored. The result of the HS2 debacle will ensure that support for any future rail project will be a lot harder to find. This means that projects like HSUK will be for ever tarred with the HS2 brush, which is such a shame for rail development in the UK.

 

[MattRat]

I've never been a fan of HS2, and most of the many problems that have happened with it were predicted by 2010, by people who were ignored. The result of the HS2 debacle will ensure that support for any future rail project will be a lot harder to find. This means that projects like HSUK will be for ever tarred with the HS2 brush, which is such a shame for rail development in the UK.

How exactly do you stop a project which there is no other alternative? Which will be the case for the ECML in the future.

 

[route101]

South Coast from say Southampton up to Birmingham to link with HS2. Services from South Coast to Scotland. Never going to happen. I would wonder the level of demand.

I would love to know the journey times for that from Southampton to Birmingham and onto Scotland.