The P2 New-builds

[markindurham]

I missed this comment earlier, and I didn't realise that this project was under way. However, having been youthfully around when the 82xxx came to Taunton in their final years (not that they had many) to run to Minehead etc, the crews despised them compared to their 41xx, or even the smaller 45xx, and they were generally left at the back of the shed until the foreman didn't have anything else. The very first time in life I'd ever heard the expression "Couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding" was applied to one of these. Noisy and draughty cabs, controls the wrong way round, men ended up filthy at the end of the run, heavy on coal, short of steam by the top of the bank at Crowcombe, vacuum brake poor, you name it.

How much of that was just down to the fact that they weren't GWR locomotives though? Railwaymen in general weren't known for praising other railways' products...

 

[Tiny Tim]

I recently trawled the internet for 'new build' steam locos in the UK, and even after eliminating those clearly from la-la land there were still over 20 projects that appeared to have made some physical progress. Granted, some of these may well fail at a later stage, but it's still a phenomenal number, and represents (at a rough guess) £130 million of funding. Good luck to all of them, I say, but I'm sure that observers from outside the UK would consider it to be some inexplicable British disease. As for new-build duplications, we already have a whole fleet of Black Fives and that's not likely to change either.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I've wondered a couple of times about the new-build projects for the Patriot and the Clan class locos.

Why build an original-style Patriot when quite a few were rebuilt with tapered boilers and other changes, which implies that the original design was problematic? Might not one in the rebuilt style be a better bet? (On a personal aesthetic note, I feel that the original parallel boiler of the Patriots and Scots was incredibly ugly, especially with the tiny chimney on top, and the rebuild made them respectable-looking locos.)

And was not the Clan class the least successful of the BR Standards? It was only slightly lighter than a Britannia, but with only a slight increase in power over a Class Five. Is there any particular reason for one of these to be built from scratch?

One candidate I'd like to see for a new-build project would be the Drummond 700 class 0-6-0 tender loco, popularly known as the Black Motors (nobody seems to know why). They were a fairly small freight loco on the Southern, did decades of good work, none was preserved, and a new one would be useful on many preserved lines. Whether anyone else would want to see one of these, I don't know; I guess we all have our favourite choices.

 

[alexl92]

I've wondered a couple of times about the new-build projects for the Patriot and the Clan class locos.

Why build an original-style Patriot when quite a few were rebuilt with tapered boilers and other changes, which implies that the original design was problematic? Might not one in the rebuilt style be a better bet? (On a personal aesthetic note, I feel that the original parallel boiler of the Patriots and Scots was incredibly ugly, especially with the tiny chimney on top, and the rebuild made them respectable-looking locos.)

And was not the Clan class the least successful of the BR Standards? It was only slightly lighter than a Britannia, but with only a slight increase in power over a Class Five. Is there any particular reason for one of these to be built from scratch?

One candidate I'd like to see for a new-build project would be the Drummond 700 class 0-6-0 tender loco, popularly known as the Black Motors (nobody seems to know why). They were a fairly small freight loco on the Southern, did decades of good work, none was preserved, and a new one would be useful on many preserved lines. Whether anyone else would want to see one of these, I don't know; I guess we all have our favourite choices.

The patriot is the missing gap in the LMS Express lineup.. I suppose the original version because to many people that's a what a patriot is. The rebuilds looked very similar to Royal Scots to my eyes. Not sure of the exact reason though.

The Clan is basically another fill-the-gaps thing. We have a 2 (2-6-0), 4 (both kinds), 5, 7 and 8 from the standard range, we're getting both types of Class 3s and the missing Class 2 so all that would remain would be the 6.

 

[Spamcan81]

The patriot is the missing gap in the LMS Express lineup.. I suppose the original version because to many people that's a what a patriot is. The rebuilds looked very similar to Royal Scots to my eyes. Not sure of the exact reason though.

The Clan is basically another fill-the-gaps thing. We have a 2 (2-6-0), 4 (both kinds), 5, 7 and 8 from the standard range, we're getting both types of Class 3s and the missing Class 2 so all that would remain would be the 6.

IIRC the rebuilt Patriots shared a common boiler with the Rebuilt Scots - as did the two rebuilt Jubilees - so there's where the similarity comes from. Patriots were not known as "Baby Scots" for nothing.

 

[alexl92]

IIRC the rebuilt Patriots shared a common boiler with the Rebuilt Scots - as did the two rebuilt Jubilees - so there's where the similarity comes from. Patriots were not known as "Baby Scots" for nothing.

Sorry - I meant the exact reason that the Patriot Project is going with the unrebuilt! But that's interesting.

 

[Kinghambranch]

The Patriot, in its original form, is a direct link to the LNWR Claughton 4-6-0, indeed, the first two Patriots had Claughton driving wheels but were otherwise new locomotives (but to the LNWR Accountant they would have been classed as Claughton rebuilds!). The Royal Scots and Patriots, in their original form, were very distinctive looking (in a pretty-ugly way) and I can see the historic reason for choosing the original boiler for the Unknown Warrior. Not all Patriots were rebuilt and many people therefore remember them in their original guise. Progress is coming on nicely with 45551, see:
http://www.lms-patriot.org.uk/
It needs to; the loco has an important centenary to mark in 2018.

Regarding 72010, the Class 6 "Clan", there has been much written about the apparent poor performance of these locos, but this is also countered by many crews and by work carried out on them by BR. The Clan is, of course, basically a Britannia with a smaller boiler. After some years of stop start progress, wortk on 72010 is also now progressing well. See:
http://www.72010-hengist.org/index.php

For my sins, I'm a member and supporter of 3 of the new build schemes and it comes as something of a shock to me
as a GWR aficionado that none of them is a GWR design although one, 82045, is from a Swindon built class!
They are, 45551-The Unkown Warrior, 82045 and 77021.

Progress on 82045 at the SVR has been excellent: http://www.82045.org.uk/
and this really will be a useful loco for most heritage lines. Similarly, its Class 3 tender cousin, 77021, will also be of use to heritage lines, that 17 ton axle loading being very helpful on "lighter" lines. The 77021 Group only started in the public domain less than 2 years ago and progress is relatively slow at present. As might be expected, 77021 will share many components with 82045 and, as the only "missing" BR Standard loco in the lineup, is well worth building. BR Class 3 tender locos are not beauty contest winners though but beauty is in the eye...etc! Link to the 77021 website below:
http://www.77021.org/

At the moment then, we have:
2999 (conversion from a Hall rather than an all new build I concede)
72010
82045
32424 Beachy Head
Holden F5 2-4-2T
B17 61662 Manchester United
B17 Spirit of Sandringham
GCR 4-4-0 567 at GCR
4709
LNWR George the Fifth
6880 Betton Grange
Class G5 0-4-4T
72021
84030 conversion from a BR Class 2 tender loco
P2 Prince of Wales
P2 Cock o the North
1014 County of Glamorgan
4-4-0 Claud Hamilton
LNWR 2-2-2 Bloomer (which seems to have stopped at Tyseley)
The Galloping Gertie 2-6-0 at Swindon & Cricklade (which seems to have 2 hopes and one of them's "Bob"!)

There could well be more of course and I apologise if I've missed any. Some of these projects have made such progress in the last 2 years that, to all intents and purposes, they look just like a complete loco undergoing major overhaul! The P2 Prince of Wales has, by far, been the most spectacular but with its Tornado workforce pedigree that's not really surprising.

If all these locos are too small for you then you could invest in the USA:
http://www.prrt1steamlocomotivetrust.org/
Now this will be something!

 

[Bevan Price]

For my sins, I'm a member and supporter of 3 of the new build schemes and it comes as something of a shock to me
as a GWR aficionado that none of them is a GWR design although one, 82045, is from a Swindon built class!
They are, 45551-The Unkown Warrior, 82045 and 77021.

Progress on 82045 at the SVR has been excellent: http://www.82045.org.uk/
and this really will be a useful loco for most heritage lines. Similarly, its Class 3 tender cousin, 77021, will also be of use to heritage lines, that 17 ton axle loading being very helpful on "lighter" lines. The 77021 Group only started in the public domain less than 2 years ago and progress is relatively slow at present. As might be expected, 77021 will share many components with 82045 and, as the only "missing" BR Standard loco in the lineup, is well worth building. BR Class 3 tender locos are not beauty contest winners though but beauty is in the eye...etc! Link to the 77021 website below:
http://www.77021.org/
!

77000 and 82000 classes both used a modified GWR No.2 boiler design - but shortened by a few inches.