Positive discussion regarding stations that are proposed for reopening

[tbtc]

Also, funding for Walsall - Wolves was formally announced yesterday.

That's good news - I was surprised when it effectively closed (though I say that without any specific knowledge of the area/ travel patterns) - it was a rather lightly loaded 153 on the only time I used it (the train heading towards Telford I think - certainly on the Shrewsbury line) - but it feels like one of those routes where there's a good number of people travelling from Walsall to Wolverhampton (and vice versa) - looking at the bus services etc - but often those kind of corridors are pretty useless at just one train per hour (why bother waiting for it when there's a bus every few minutes?), so I wouldn't consider doing it for anything less than two trains per hour

Soham seems ridiculously expensive for what it is.

Well it's coming in at £ 18m - Corby (which was also a single platform station) was over £ 8m back in 2008, so about £ 11m now. I can only assume there are some other costs associated with Soham that didn't exist for Corby ?

Bow Street more recently came in a £ 8m - so there must be something different at Soham which is contributing to costs which weren't present there

£18m for Soham?

I know it's north of the border (and therefore not within the "positive" reopening criteria for this thread), but I saw Phillip Haigh (@philatrail) retweet a Network Rail update about "the new £20million station for Reston".

I don't know if Soham or Reston are significantly different in terms of scope/ problems or whether that's just the going rate for each new station nowadays (it may be, given the cost of doing things nowadays) - maybe that's just the benchmark nowadays?

As I say, I don't know the specifics of Soham so maybe there are other factors in play, but maybe also that's a fair cost of what is required to do things to the standards that are now necessary (whereas in BR days you'd carefully account for things differently to hide the true cost)

 

[willgreen]

That's good news - I was surprised when it effectively closed (though I say that without any specific knowledge of the area/ travel patterns) - it was a rather lightly loaded 153 on the only time I used it (the train heading towards Telford I think - certainly on the Shrewsbury line) - but it feels like one of those routes where there's a good number of people travelling from Walsall to Wolverhampton (and vice versa) - looking at the bus services etc - but often those kind of corridors are pretty useless at just one train per hour (why bother waiting for it when there's a bus every few minutes?), so I wouldn't consider doing it for anything less than two trains per hour





£18m for Soham?

I know it's north of the border (and therefore not within the "positive" reopening criteria for this thread), but I saw Phillip Haigh (@philatrail) retweet a Network Rail update about "the new £20million station for Reston".

I don't know if Soham or Reston are significantly different in terms of scope/ problems or whether that's just the going rate for each new station nowadays (it may be, given the cost of doing things nowadays) - maybe that's just the benchmark nowadays?

As I say, I don't know the specifics of Soham so maybe there are other factors in play, but maybe also that's a fair cost of what is required to do things to the standards that are now necessary (whereas in BR days you'd carefully account for things differently to hide the true cost)

Horden cost £10.5 million for a two-platform station - not sure what the local conditions are in Soham but there is definitely a question over value for money when a station with two platforms and a substantial footbridge can be built for nearly half the price.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Reston will (according to the planning application) have platforms long enough for 10 car sets, so I would assume that two of those would be expected to cost rather more than one much shorter platform at Soham, all other things being equal.

 

[geoffk]

Clitheroe - Hellifield could be added although it's technically already a passenger line, albeit only on summer Sundays.

Referred to on and off are Northwich - Middlewich - Sandbach and Ferryhill - Stillington - Stockton but I believe both require extensive track renewal, while paths on the ECML north of Ferryhill are in short supply to allow a service to/from Newcastle (as was Northern's original plan). And then there's Leicester - Burton, what's happened to that?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Lea Road reopening as Cottam Parkway is heartening. While the link road will need to be built first, it has been confirmed by on-site signage that works are underway.

That confused me, until I realised that we are not talking about Gainsborough or the nearby, and recently closed, electricity generating station at Cottam
If Barking Riverside counts, presumably we should also include the Northern Line extension?

 

[A0wen]

Clitheroe - Hellifield could be added although it's technically already a passenger line, albeit only on summer Sundays.

If Okehampton's being included, then yes, I'd agree this is much the same.

But I don't think it's being looked at - and one challenge when it came up previously was the turnaround time at Clitheroe isn't long enough to allow a run up to Hellifield and back, so it would require a more wide-spread timetable change, which as ultimately these services feed into Manchester isn't straightforward and it would probably need additional units to cover.

 

[geoffk]

If Okehampton's being included, then yes, I'd agree this is much the same.

But I don't think it's being looked at - and one challenge when it came up previously was the turnaround time at Clitheroe isn't long enough to allow a run up to Hellifield and back, so it would require a more wide-spread timetable change, which as ultimately these services feed into Manchester isn't straightforward and it would probably need additional units to cover.

It would need extra resources but so do many of the other schemes on the list. Trains would have to run to Settle Jn to turn back, if terminating at Hellifield.

 

[zwk500]

It would need extra resources but so do many of the other schemes on the list. Trains would have to run to Settle Jn to turn back, if terminating at Hellifield.

Not necessarily - they can shunt empty to the other platform via the junction end. EDIT: just checked the diagram and you can't shunt into the Up platform, only the Loop.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Clitheroe - Hellifield could be added although it's technically already a passenger line, albeit only on summer Sundays.

Referred to on and off are Northwich - Middlewich - Sandbach and Ferryhill - Stillington - Stockton but I believe both require extensive track renewal, while paths on the ECML north of Ferryhill are in short supply to allow a service to/from Newcastle (as was Northern's original plan). And then there's Leicester - Burton, what's happened to that?

The original list was of 'projects have made it to a reasonable stage in their process to mean we can reasonably expect some progress to be made in the coming months or years'. I wouldn't consider any of those proposals sufficiently certain to count for that.

To answer your question, Leicester-Burton was shortlisted in the Restoring your Railways fund, which means that the Government are providing 75% funding up to £50K to prepare an initial business case. So that's kinda hopeful, but no guarantee. Ferryhill and Clitheroe-Hellifield are in the same situation. Middlewich is worse off - the application to the Restoring your Railways fund was rejected. EDIT: Middlewich we don't know - the application was made in round 3, for which the shortlist hasn't yet been determined.

 

[furnessvale]

If Okehampton's being included, then yes, I'd agree this is much the same.

But I don't think it's being looked at - and one challenge when it came up previously was the turnaround time at Clitheroe isn't long enough to allow a run up to Hellifield and back, so it would require a more wide-spread timetable change, which as ultimately these services feed into Manchester isn't straightforward and it would probably need additional units to cover.

A round trip, Clitheroe-Hellifield-Clitheroe for a unit would be just under the hour. One extra unit would be needed in any case, but an hourly service could be maintained on the same time slot.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Re Middlewich, a rail industry source said that increasing the line speed to 60mph would be only a paper exercise. The line is already used by heavy freight. I'm not aware of any application to the Restoring your Railway fund for Middlewich reopening, which is further along the track than that. The ball is currently with DfT.

I see that a Restoring your Railway bid has actually just been submitted for Middlewich among the 85 schemes submitted by the deadline of 5th March 2021.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Re Middlewich, a rail industry source said that increasing the line speed to 60mph would be only a paper exercise. The line is already used by heavy freight. I'm not aware of any application to the Restoring your Railway fund for Middlewich reopening, which is further along the track than that. The ball is currently with DfT.

Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean 'paper' as in, just doing some box-ticking, no infrastructure needed, or 'paper' as in, it won't achieve anything?

I see that a Restoring your Railway bid has actually just been submitted for Middlewich among the 85 schemes submitted by the deadline of 5th March 2021.

Ah yes, my mistake. I saw Middlewich was on the list of bids but not the list of successful bids and assumed it had been unsuccessful. But of course, it was submitted in round 3 which hasn't been assessed yet, so we don't know if it will be successful or not. I'll edit my post.

 

[Bald Rick]

Re Middlewich, a rail industry source said that increasing the line speed to 60mph would be only a paper exercise. The line is already used by heavy freight.

It is anything but a paper exercise (assuming you mean it only needs paperwork to resolve).

 

[Rail Ranger]

A Network Rail source informed us that increasing the line speed was simply a matter of filling in paperwork.

 

[Bald Rick]

A Network Rail source informed us that increasing the line speed was simply a matter of filling in paperwork.

If it was, it would have been done.

 

[Rail Ranger]

No need on a freight-only line? I know that much of the track is modern and of course two bridges were replaced last autumn.

 

[The Planner]

No need on a freight-only line? I know that much of the track is modern and of course two bridges were replaced last autumn.

It has to go through a regulated proposal process, ie Network Change, and plenty of other hoops before that. None of which have happened. If the FOCs are aware of it then they would have been pushing ages ago for it, it is irrelevant to Middlewich itself.

 

[Annetts key]

No need on a freight-only line? I know that much of the track is modern and of course two bridges were replaced last autumn.

Talking in general because I don’t know the details of this line.

Raising the line speed can be more complex than just the consideration of the state of the track and bridges alone.

It depends also depends on the signalling system, including the service braking distance between any signal capable of showing/displaying a yellow/caution and the limit of movement (red/danger signal or equivalent).

As well as the rails and sleepers, the ballast formation and any embankments also have to be suitable. If the line has curves (bends), will the cant need adjustment for the higher speed?

And if there is an incline then the gradient also has to be factored in to the service braking distance.

 

[Bald Rick]

No need on a freight-only line? I know that much of the track is modern and of course two bridges were replaced last autumn.

There are around 100 different factors that affect line speed, although not all apply to every line. Each one has to be assessed (the first stage of paperwork), then any issues identified have to be resolved (physical work), then signed off (more paperwork).

 

[muddythefish]

This thread is intended to be an opportunity for positive only comments, links and thoughts around reopenings in England to be posted.

As far as I am aware the following projects have made it to a reasonable stage in their process to mean we can reasonably expect some progress to be made in the coming months or years:

Northumberland
Portishead
Okehampton
Walsall-Wolverhampton
Camp Hill
Barking Riverside
East West
Henbury
Wisbeach
Isle of Grain

Maybe things aren't as bad as we thought?

Skipton-Colne is not on your list. Has that long-running campaign come to nothing after all these years?

 

[bluenoxid]

Skipton-Colne is not on your list. Has that long-running campaign come to nothing after all these years?

It hasn’t progressed to the same stage as many of the projects listed.

Unfortunately, it’s business case has been relatively poor and like many of the campaign groups for lines whose cost would be substantial, they were slow to update their figures to account for railway construction inflation.

The campaign has not tackled pretty key and difficult questions about the route and integration into the national network.

 

[daodao]

A round trip, Clitheroe-Hellifield-Clitheroe for a unit would be just under the hour. One extra unit would be needed in any case, but an hourly service could be maintained on the same time slot.

The area north of Clitheroe has a low population density, so it isn't worth providing an hourly service. A few trains per day might be possible/worthwhile, e.g. just after the morning peak and just before and just after the evening peak, with connections to S&C services at Hellifield. A turnback facility there would be desirable.

 

[Bald Rick]

Skipton-Colne is not on your list. Has that long-running campaign come to nothing after all these years?

Positive comments only please!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Talking in general because I don’t know the details of this line.
Raising the line speed can be more complex than just the consideration of the state of the track and bridges alone.
It depends also depends on the signalling system, including the service braking distance between any signal capable of showing/displaying a yellow/caution and the limit of movement (red/danger signal or equivalent).
As well as the rails and sleepers, the ballast formation and any embankments also have to be suitable. If the line has curves (bends), will the cant need adjustment for the higher speed?
And if there is an incline then the gradient also has to be factored in to the service braking distance.

The southern (Sandbach) end has been resignalled as far as Middlewich (Manchester South); there are no gradients to speak of.
However, the line is sharply curved at both ends and is in generally poor condition.
There's a 15mph connection for a mile at the Sandbach end and 10mph at the Northwich end.
Otherwise 20mph over the other 8 miles.

 

[RPI]

I've seen a few people refer to the Okehampton line as already being operational etc and maybe bringing into question (indirectly) whether it counts as reopening, but its worth remembering that a lot of track renewals are required and GSMR masts need to go up before a regular service can operate!

 

[Julia]

Horden cost £10.5 million for a two-platform station - not sure what the local conditions are in Soham but there is definitely a question over value for money when a station with two platforms and a substantial footbridge can be built for nearly half the price.

How much of Soham's cost is future-proofing - doing the heavy groundwork for the second track, platform and signalling while all the plant is on site and the line in possession? I'm sure the powers that be will be eyeing up the quick win of redoubling through to just north of the station (even if not all the way to Ely), if only to get stopping trains out of the way of container traffic several minutes faster.