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The Post-Deregulation Era (1986-2000)

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northrob

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I think that we can safely say that the years after deregulation were certainly... interesting. I don’t want the thread to descend into whether deregulation was a good or bad thing, however it being more an opportunity for people to share their memories or experiences of the period up to 2000.

Here’s something I can think of off the top of my head to maybe get us started:

Operators outside their usual operating area

Probably the most famous one that people remember in the era is East Midlands with their short-lived Frontrunner operation before being bought by Stagecoach in 1989. Frontrunner North West was based in Tintwistle and was mainly serving the Glossop area. While that might have been some way from their normal area, Frontrunner South East was even further away – this being based in Essex and even operating a couple of London contracts.

PMT expanded outside their area in the late 80s, setting up operations in the Wirral (this being before they bought Crosville), the West Midlands and even Leeds.

Stevensons of Uttoxeter also got in on the act, with their Pacer operation in Stockport and Edinburgh Transport (no prizes for guessing where they operated), as well as expansion into the West Midlands – eventually getting retaliation from West Midlands Travel in Burton-on-Trent.

Even independents seemed to expand with Appleby’s operating services in Bridlington & Scarborough, outside their usual territory of North Lincolnshire (although I'm not 100% sure it this was entirely post-deregulation); and Pride of The Road seemed to be everywhere across Yorkshire...

Were there any other examples of operators setting up outside their usual area?

As I said further up, feel free to add your own memories of this period...
 
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Statto

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MTL & GM Buses wars early to mid 90s that MLT set up a depot in Manchester, whilst GM Buses set up a depot in Bootle, & Birkenhead under Birkenhead & District banner, Birkenhead & District depot was an outstation of Princess Road depot, when GM Buses split the Bootle depot was GM Buses North, Birkenhead, GM Buses South, GM Buses even operated services in Southport during this time, a gentleman's agreement saw operators pulling out of each others areas, which meant 34 Liverpool-Manchester was split at Leigh, & 320 Liverpool-Wigan cut to Wigan-St Helens & transferred to North Western.
 

A0wen

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In Hertfordshire, London Country re-routed their long standing Hitchin - Potters Bar service to St Albans and Hemel which led to Herts CC tendering for a replacement Hatfield - Potters Bar service. That was won by Dodds of Troon in Ayrshire.

Another was the West Midlands based coach operator Thandi picked up a number of bus routes from Heathrow Airport to the Staines area which Surrey CC had tendered.

In both cases the operators ran coach services to / from London and therefore had outstations for these, but the move into bus work was a distance from their base.
 
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Lots of mini buses. Companies trying to improve services but often on the cheap with poor results.

A few middle managers became rich men. Dearth of new vehicles as companies tried to work out if they could make profits. Unloading of property assets, although some of this took much longer than the time span of the OPs question.
Lots of very small operators fighting for tendered services using a variety of vehicles with dubious maintenance, although the latter wasn't always just the smaller operators.
Race to the bottom of drivers wages and conditions.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Lots of mini buses. Companies trying to improve services but often on the cheap with poor results.

A few middle managers became rich men. Dearth of new vehicles as companies tried to work out if they could make profits. Unloading of property assets, although some of this took much longer than the time span of the OPs question.
Lots of very small operators fighting for tendered services using a variety of vehicles with dubious maintenance, although the latter wasn't always just the smaller operators.
Race to the bottom of drivers wages and conditions.

To be fair, there were a number of buy outs that involved both management AND employees with the latter also sharing in some of the wealth, such as Busways.

There were sadly some firms that were under equipped for the new world (London Country's various entities?) and some that were more prepared. Also, the property aspect was important as there were some NBC firms that had a substantial property portfolio such as the oft quoted Southampton bus station/depot. There was a downward pressure on terms and conditions and that is undeniable. However, there were also other areas in which businesses had been inefficient for years. I remember my fathers' NBC depot having a PVR of 18 vehicles and a workforce (excluding drivers) of a Depot Manager, 2 Inspectors, 4 fitters, 2 travel office clerks, a depot clerk, and 2 cleaners - 12 support staff!

Linked to this was the end of the Central Works (though appreciate a few survive such as Go North East). Many NBC ones had been hived off anyway to form separate companies that were all sold as a job lot to some asset strippers (called Frontsource?). Instead, operators began contracting out many specialist services such as heavy engineering, refurbishment etc.

Another interesting aspect was the impact on the municipals. Many had traditionally been bound to their civic boundaries to a greater or lesser degree. However, some were able to expand their patch at the expense of other larger operators, with Rossendale exploiting GM Buses retrenchment in Rochdale, Halton capitalising on the Crosville Liverpool strike, etc. Others were hopelessly vulnerable being too small (Taff Ely, Barrow) or had the impact of excessive competition, with Lancaster City Transport running local services in Kendal or running out to Blackpool and Preston.

I just wish I'd taken more notice and more photographs at the time.
 

A0wen

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To be fair, there were a number of buy outs that involved both management AND employees with the latter also sharing in some of the wealth, such as Busways.

There were sadly some firms that were under equipped for the new world (London Country's various entities?)

Hindsight being the wonderful thing it is, London Country was a complete basket-case when transferred to NBC.

The mistake actually was the 1933 act which gave LPTB far too larger area - too large even for today. Yet back then places like Buntingford and Baldock were little country towns in the middle of nowhere - both are nearer Cambridge than London - but they ended up with a London regulated and indeed London cost base bus service. Whereas places not too far away from them like Haverhill or Saffron Walden ended up under the provincial operators.

The LPTB should have been clipped at the 'London boundary' in 1933 - not allowed to cover most of Hertfordshire, a good chunk of south Essex, Bedfordshire and so on. Even when it was taken out of LT hands, it probably should have been broken up rather than left as a single entity.

LCBS persisted as a high cost base company for quite a time - it really was only after the constituent parts started getting acquired by the likes of Luton & District did the costs start to be addressed as it made little sense that it was costing so much more to run buses in Hemel than it was in Luton or Aylesbury.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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LCBS persisted as a high cost base company for quite a time - it really was only after the constituent parts started getting acquired by the likes of Luton & District did the costs start to be addressed as it made little sense that it was costing so much more to run buses in Hemel than it was in Luton or Aylesbury.

Your knowledge is greater than mine but in respect of LCNE, it had the reputation of having a militant workforce, restrictive practices and a resultant high cost base. Also, aside from the Green Line fleet and a few Olympians, the LC fleets were typified by ageing Nationals and Atlanteans with few minibuses? Seem to recall LCSW had a few but not many.
 

A0wen

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Your knowledge is greater than mine but in respect of LCNE, it had the reputation of having a militant workforce, restrictive practices and a resultant high cost base. Also, aside from the Green Line fleet and a few Olympians, the LC fleets were typified by ageing Nationals and Atlanteans with few minibuses? Seem to recall LCSW had a few but not many.

The fleet wasn't in bad shape in 1985 in many respects. They had about 300 ANs delivered between 1972 and 1981, age wise that's probably comparable to most other NBC fleets who had large numbers of Bristol VRs for example. They had 75 Olympians delivered between 1982 and 1985. And of course a huge fleet of Nationals which had been delivered between 1973 and 1979.

Compare that with neighbouring companies like Eastern National, Alder Valley or United Counties was it that much worse ? OK, United Counties had received some National 2s in 1980/1 but the flip side is they were still running around with Bristol REs which dated from the late 60s and early 70s and their VRs had arrived between 1969 and 1981 - so older than LC's ANs.

They were slow on the minibus uptake no doubt. The restrictive practises were a hangover from LT days - hence my comment that the real mistake was made in 1933 by actually making the country area part of LT which led to high costs that weren't sustainable. It was compounded in 1970 when it was transferred to the NBC as a single entity - because those restrictive practises and high costs continued through the 1970s. Whereas had they been made parts of other, neighbouring companies those costs would have been diluted over time.
 

Mikey C

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The London Country companies were also in a good position to win tendered routes in London, having garages all around the outskirts
 

A0wen

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The London Country companies were also in a good position to win tendered routes in London, having garages all around the outskirts

Some were - not all.

North East did - but in part that was because Hatfield and St Albans had capacity as a result of losing HCC contracts (HF had lost the Welwyn Hatfield locals and the 341, SA had lost the 343 and 355) - but they lost those when they had their strike and LRT stripped them of those contracts.

North West took the 142 which was a logical one running to / from Watford, but their other win of the 268 was run using an outstation at Scratchwood services.

There were a few wins around the Croydon area, but I'm not sure South West took on any LRT work ?

Of the ex NBC companies arguably, Eastern National made the most of that opportunity, to the extent of setting up a sub-division to run the services it had secured.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The fleet wasn't in bad shape in 1985 in many respects. They had about 300 ANs delivered between 1972 and 1981, age wise that's probably comparable to most other NBC fleets who had large numbers of Bristol VRs for example. They had 75 Olympians delivered between 1982 and 1985. And of course a huge fleet of Nationals which had been delivered between 1973 and 1979.

Compare that with neighbouring companies like Eastern National, Alder Valley or United Counties was it that much worse ? OK, United Counties had received some National 2s in 1980/1 but the flip side is they were still running around with Bristol REs which dated from the late 60s and early 70s and their VRs had arrived between 1969 and 1981 - so older than LC's ANs.

They were slow on the minibus uptake no doubt. The restrictive practises were a hangover from LT days - hence my comment that the real mistake was made in 1933 by actually making the country area part of LT which led to high costs that weren't sustainable. It was compounded in 1970 when it was transferred to the NBC as a single entity - because those restrictive practises and high costs continued through the 1970s. Whereas had they been made parts of other, neighbouring companies those costs would have been diluted over time.

My point was more about the lack of minibuses. Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of places around the country that had similar issues in fleet profile (if not worse) having had a glut of vehicles in the late 1970s but that new vehicle investment had declined after the removal of new bus grants and limitations of public spending. That was perhaps another aspect of deregulation - the absence of many new conventional buses and influxes of van derived minibuses to either convert existing networks (and replace the older conventionals) or to strike into new areas.
 

Mikey C

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Some were - not all.

North East did - but in part that was because Hatfield and St Albans had capacity as a result of losing HCC contracts (HF had lost the Welwyn Hatfield locals and the 341, SA had lost the 343 and 355) - but they lost those when they had their strike and LRT stripped them of those contracts.

North West took the 142 which was a logical one running to / from Watford, but their other win of the 268 was run using an outstation at Scratchwood services.

There were a few wins around the Croydon area, but I'm not sure South West took on any LRT work ?

Of the ex NBC companies arguably, Eastern National made the most of that opportunity, to the extent of setting up a sub-division to run the services it had secured.
LCSE which became Kentish Bus was a major operator of London routes, notably the famous (or infamous!) cream and maroon Routemasters on the 19.

With Arriva taking over many of the the London Country companies the differential between the ex London Buses and ex London Country operations has been blurred, with Grays and Dartford garages (ex London Country) being part of Arriva London now.
 

A0wen

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LCSE which became Kentish Bus was a major operator of London routes, notably the famous (or infamous!) cream and maroon Routemasters on the 19.

With Arriva taking over many of the the London Country companies the differential between the ex London Buses and ex London Country operations has been blurred, with Grays and Dartford garages (ex London Country) being part of Arriva London now.

Quite correct - and also @TheGrandWazoo on the south-west ones. I'd overlooked the fact Crawley and Chelsham (which were the ones I was thinking of for serving Croydon area) had gone to SW.
 

northrob

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LCSE certainly did win some LRT work - I think is was in the Croydon area. Before it all became Arriva, I think some of it was operated under the Londonlinks name rather than the London & County name they used elsewhere
 
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Tetchytyke

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To be fair, there were a number of buy outs that involved both management AND employees with the latter also sharing in some of the wealth, such as Busways.

Quite a few involved both, but generally "employee buyouts" resulted in a couple of middle managers owning 51% and everyone else owning 49%. People like Moir Lockhead, people who were only ever middling middle managers, made lots and lots of money by doing very little. He made his fortune owning 51% of Grampian, despite contributing none of his own money. All the rich bus managers who made millions are the same. Look at Alan Stephenson!

I think they all knew that they had to expand their patches, that it was the wild west, and it became the wild west. The dirtiest got to the top. It made for interesting times, West Yorkshire Road Car and Sovereign (LCNE I think it was?) being owned by the same company and swapping vehicles constantly, Stagecoach ad nauseam ad infinitum, etc etc.

It was interesting for seeing new buses and new companies, and new liveries for those new companies, but quickly it wasn't. Poppy and cream just got replaced with Barbie.

I think @Geordie driver hit the nail on the head!
 

ag51ruk

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In Derby, Mercian Midland Red (Midland Red North) running minibuses to compete with Derby City Transport, which resulted in DCT buying their own minibuses and running some services in Tamworth and Lichfield. Both companies ended up as Arriva.

Plus Trent and Derby City Transport having a short lived battle in Chellaston, which ended with an "agreement" that saw DCT get Chellaston/Melbourne, and Trent got Spondon/Burton.
 

duncombec

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I was really too young to remember what I now consider the "interesting years" - I only really got into buses when I went to secondary school in late 1997 - one of my first 'timetables' was the leaflet announcing the change to Arriva branding - but I associate it with the huge number of many and varied independent operators, some of whom are still here today, others who seemed to appear and disappear almost within the space of a couple of months. Although they are fewer than they were, we still seem to have more independents here in the South-East corner than existed before deregulation, if my historical reading is anything to go by.

There also seems to have been a lot of fluctuation in the quality of publicity. Some councils were brilliant from the outset, others have been rather more up-and-down in terms of what they produced, either themselves or in conjunction with other publishers - Connections were certainly strong in random areas of the south-east (although I don't think they ever covered a whole county... I'd be interested to know just which areas they did cover, beyond parts of Kent and parts of Hampshire). For many of those fly-by-month independents, I'm sure a mention in a council book was probably the only publicity they produced and probably would be now, if budgetary influences hadn't reduced so many councils' output.

People seem to write books the older they get, so I'm looking forward to when there are as many books available about the period in the thread title here as there now are about their NBC (and before) predecessors!
 

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Didn't West Midlands Travel invest in a couple of operations outside the Midlands. I'm sure one of them was a participant in the Darlington War
 

Vespa

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I do remember in Merseyside loads of old clapped out buses that should belong in a museum were brought out and old museum piece ticket machine brought into use with a hand winder to print them.
Various company competing for a limited numbers of passengers Ogden, South Lancs, North Western, Merseybus, MTL and other smaller independent operators some using nipper mini buses to operate round estates that big buses don't go, it was chaotic and certainly interesting for colourful fleet colours.
In the early days the drivers used to divide passengers up between themselves by missing some stops, eventually that soon stopped and it became a free for all bus war with some service duplication, price cuts and offers.

Of course over time there were acquisitions and mergers finally culminating in the big two Stagecoach and Arrive buses in my area anyway.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Didn't West Midlands Travel invest in a couple of operations outside the Midlands. I'm sure one of them was a participant in the Darlington War

West Midlands Travel bought Westcourt Group in 1994 (I think), which was the firm that owned United, Teesside Motor Services and Tees and District. United had been embroiled in a protracted battle with a former MD who set up a rival operation in Darlington since 1993. They also purchased Lynton Travel Group who owned Citibus in Manchester, and County Bus and Coach (mainly the Essex area of the former London Country North East). IIRC, NatEx bought WMT but didn't want the non core bits so they were sold to First (Citibus) and Cowie Group.

Quite a few involved both, but generally "employee buyouts" resulted in a couple of middle managers owning 51% and everyone else owning 49%. People like Moir Lockhead, people who were only ever middling middle managers, made lots and lots of money by doing very little. He made his fortune owning 51% of Grampian, despite contributing none of his own money. All the rich bus managers who made millions are the same. Look at Alan Stephenson!
Some did, some didn't. It's a long time but believe MRW staff did well out of the sale to Badgerline. There were a mix of MBOs and ESOPs and it varied from firm to firm as to how well the drivers did or didn't do, or how much the management teams put in.

Alan Stephenson is an interesting point as I think the purchases were both almost a sort of leveraged buyout. It is 32/33 years ago so if I've got anything wrong, I do apologise in advance. I think they were done in conjunction with Parkdale Holdings (a property firm) so there was an immediate divergence of property vs operational assets. The properties were then leased back until such time as they were vacated or sold for redevelopment. Some of those were quite valuable like the depot sites in Harrogate and Hertford. Somewhere in my mind is that a similar arrangement was undertaken between Parkdale and Drawlane but only for the LCSW business (which had a very desirable property portfolio).
 

Volvo142

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In Derby, Mercian Midland Red (Midland Red North) running minibuses to compete with Derby City Transport, which resulted in DCT buying their own minibuses and running some services in Tamworth and Lichfield. Both companies ended up as Arriva.

Plus Trent and Derby City Transport having a short lived battle in Chellaston, which ended with an "agreement" that saw DCT get Chellaston/Melbourne, and Trent got Spondon/Burton.

Derby City Transport also saw competition from Camms (known locally as Camms Collapsables, due to the state of the fleet!)

It was relatively short lived and DCT ended up buying Camms, but with a bizarre arrangement where Camms continued to operate for a while, with a lot of their fleet replaced by old repainted DCT vehicles, which were in better knick than what they inherited from the purchase. I think they also bought some second hand stock to supplement what they could provide from within their old fleet.
 

Tetchytyke

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I think they were done in conjunction with Parkdale Holdings (a property firm) so there was an immediate divergence of property vs operational assets. The properties were then leased back until such time as they were vacated or sold for redevelopment. Some of those were quite valuable like the depot sites in Harrogate and Hertford.

That sounds right to me.

London Country is a great example of how deregulation didn't ultimately change very much. Split into bits at deregulation, LCNE was split in two after huge losses under AJS.
One half of LCNE ultimately ended up with Cowie and, when Cowie bought British Bus, most of London Country was reunited as Arriva. The other half, which was part of Blazefield, expanded into London and the London bits were sold to Transdev. The shires part ended up with Arriva. All that turmoil and change and, in the end, London Country is now pretty much all Arriva.

Blazefield, meanwhile, sold out in full to Transdev a few years after selling London Soverign to them.

The deregulated industry is full of those ironies. Nothing tickles me more than Stagecoach now owning Yorkshire Traction, given their history.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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That sounds right to me.

London Country is a great example of how deregulation didn't ultimately change very much. Split into bits at deregulation, LCNE was split in two after huge losses under AJS.
One half of LCNE ultimately ended up with Cowie and, when Cowie bought British Bus, most of London Country was reunited as Arriva. The other half, which was part of Blazefield, expanded into London and the London bits were sold to Transdev. The shires part ended up with Arriva. All that turmoil and change and, in the end, London Country is now pretty much all Arriva.

Blazefield, meanwhile, sold out in full to Transdev a few years after selling London Soverign to them.

The deregulated industry is full of those ironies. Nothing tickles me more than Stagecoach now owning Yorkshire Traction, given their history.

You talking about Stagey and YT given the Perth bus war or something else?

There are a few reunifications. United was split into three and whilst the Scarborough ops are still with EY, Northumbria was eventually brought under the same as Arriva. Western National was split into four bits in 1983 (though DG has retained its name and a separate fleet number sequence) yet Western National, Southern National and North Devon all ended up under First eventually (if only for a while). Badgerline and Cityline separated in 1985 but were under common ownership by 1988.

There are some bus companies that are still directly recognisable. Stagecoach SE is really East Kent but with Hastings added. Lincolnshire is much the same though with more urban stuff having gained the former Lincoln and Grimsby municipal ops. Midland Red South (excluding its Megabus ops) is also much the same save Banbury is now part of Oxfordshire. Others like Midland Red West or West Yorkshire are less so. Possibly the biggest changes were Alder Valley (which was an amalgam anyway) that was split into two and then dismembered

Aldershot, Alton and Hindhead - Stagecoach (though latter depot is now Peasmarsh)
Woking - Arriva (depot closed but some presence)
Maidenhead and Bracknell - (exited but to Courtney and now part of Reading Buses)
Slough - First (via Centrewest)
Newbury and Reading - to Reading Buses
Wycombe - Arriva (via Oxford Bus)


I know what you're saying about LCBS now being Arriva though in recent times, the area that was SW around Surrey is much less so now.
 

Statto

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I do remember in Merseyside loads of old clapped out buses that should belong in a museum were brought out and old museum piece ticket machine brought into use with a hand winder to print them.
Various company competing for a limited numbers of passengers Ogden, South Lancs, North Western, Merseybus, MTL and other smaller independent operators some using nipper mini buses to operate round estates that big buses don't go, it was chaotic and certainly interesting for colourful fleet colours.
In the early days the drivers used to divide passengers up between themselves by missing some stops, eventually that soon stopped and it became a free for all bus war with some service duplication, price cuts and offers.

Of course over time there were acquisitions and mergers finally culminating in the big two Stagecoach and Arrive buses in my area anyway.

Speaking of Merseyside, Potteries Motor Traction[PMT] set up operations under RedRider brand in Wolverhampton, & Merseyside, also set up a depot in East Manchester under Pennine, PMT also had a small operation in Leeds too, Wolverhampton & Leeds operations didn't last long, PMT then brought Crosville's Wirral, Ellesmere Port & Chester depots from Drawline Group[who owned North Western & brought the post d-reg English area Crosville]. RedRider operated a few routes under tender in Liverpool from the depot in Moreton, so RedRider registered a feeder service from the Moreton depot to Liverpool

PMT were brought by Badgerline then became part of First Group when Badgerline merged with Grampian, the Moreton depot closed in 2003, Ellesmere Port depot closed too, leaving Rock Ferry & Chester which were sold to Stagecoach in 2012
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Speaking of Merseyside, Potteries Motor Traction[PMT] set up operations under RedRider brand in Wolverhampton, & Merseyside, also set up a depot in East Manchester under Pennine, PMT also had a small operation in Leeds too, Wolverhampton & Leeds operations didn't last long, PMT then brought Crosville's Wirral, Ellesmere Port & Chester depots from Drawline Group[who owned North Western & brought the post d-reg English area Crosville]. RedRider operated a few routes under tender in Liverpool from the depot in Moreton, so RedRider registered a feeder service from the Moreton depot to Liverpool

PMT were brought by Badgerline then became part of First Group when Badgerline merged with Grampian, the Moreton depot closed in 2003, Ellesmere Port depot closed too, leaving Rock Ferry & Chester which were sold to Stagecoach in 2012

I think Pennine was a purchase (Pennine Blue) they made and expanded rather than set up from scratch. The Red Rider name was used in Wolves and Wirral but when it came to Leeds, I think Yorkshire Rider (who also had Micro Rider and Gold Rider) registered an objection and so it was called Cityline. Up until a few years ago, you could still find a Red Rider bus stop in Wolverhampton if you knew where to look!

IIRC, the Wolves operations were sold to Stevos in exchange for their Pacer operation that was based in Stockport.
 
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A0wen

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That sounds right to me.

London Country is a great example of how deregulation didn't ultimately change very much. Split into bits at deregulation, LCNE was split in two after huge losses under AJS.
One half of LCNE ultimately ended up with Cowie and, when Cowie bought British Bus, most of London Country was reunited as Arriva. The other half, which was part of Blazefield, expanded into London and the London bits were sold to Transdev. The shires part ended up with Arriva. All that turmoil and change and, in the end, London Country is now pretty much all Arriva.

Blazefield, meanwhile, sold out in full to Transdev a few years after selling London Soverign to them.

The deregulated industry is full of those ironies. Nothing tickles me more than Stagecoach now owning Yorkshire Traction, given their history.

There's a pretty big chunk of North East which isn't with Arriva - the whole Welwyn>Hatfield>St Albans area is now with Uno / various independents. Arriva have retained the 'through' routes but that's about it.

And whilst Stevenage for example is under Arriva now, it's worth remembering both that and LCNW had been bought out by Luton & District - the fact the whole L&D operation became British Bus and then Arriva is a quirk of history. If anything what you've ended up with north of London is the operations which were LT have ended up under the control of what had been the western division of Eastern National - remembering Eastern National's western area was reallocated to United Counties in the 1950s. Which in its own way is what I believe should have happened in 1933 rather than those areas being gifted to LPTB.

In many ways United Counties is back to its original 'core' of North Beds and Northants - which was its main area until it was extended southwards in the 1950s as detailed above.
 
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I do recall busways drivers making a few bob but the amount they got was nothing compared to loss of wages and worsening of conditions. Where as the chosen few became rich men. I don't blame them and hold no ill will towards them, I would have done much the same had I been in their position.

I remember looking at the land our company owned and thinking wish it was mine. Is there a list of how much companies were sold for?

Why was United split into 3 when bigger companies were left in one piece?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I do recall busways drivers making a few bob but the amount they got was nothing compared to loss of wages and worsening of conditions. Where as the chosen few became rich men. I don't blame them and hold no ill will towards them, I would have done much the same had I been in their position.

I remember looking at the land our company owned and thinking wish it was mine. Is there a list of how much companies were sold for?

Why was United split into 3 when bigger companies were left in one piece?

Got to remember that virtually all the Busways drivers voted to accept it. Might have been that quite a few were perhaps "of an age" and it was a pay day they couldn't refuse and wouldn't have had too long to suffer the lower terms and conditions.

Not certain there were many bigger firms in terms of territory. It was about selling more firms for more money to the Treasury, being more agile and creating competition.
 

Statto

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I think Pennine was a purchase (Pennine Blue) they made and expanded rather than set up from scratch. The Red Rider name was used in Wolves and Wirral but when it came to Leeds, I think Yorkshire Rider (who also had Micro Rider and Gold Rider) registered an objection and so it was called Cityline. IIRC, the Wolves operations were sold to Stevos in exchange for their Pacer operation that was based in Stockport.

Thanks for that

Another one, after the Drawline Group brought Crosville, the Crosville area was split again with Winsford & Runcorn depots into North Western, Crewe became Midland Red North, Macclesfield was C-Line then became Stevensons, with Wirral, Ellesmere Port & Chester depots as mentioned sold to PMT, the Drawline bus division became British Bus, not sure if Stevensons ever merged with Midland Red North before they became Arriva Midlands or not?

You had Stevensons running services to Birmingham & Manchester, with most of the Stevensons services were in & around Burton & Uttoxeter, Midland Red North running services from Chester to Birmingham too
 
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