The TaxPayers’ Alliance report on Crossrail 2

[Aictos]

Why should London Overground reduce its service to just Chingford and Seven Sisters?

That makes no sense at all, as to Hertford East services coming under London Overground control I fail to see what that would to to improve the service as the same number of trains would still be using the West Anglia route.

 

[700007]

I wouldn’t say that old chap - you know more than anyone about everything!

A couple of points:

The peak services on the WAML from Broxbourne south are all 8 cars today, and rammed. The longer trains GA put on will help, of course (assuming GA sort out the platform length issue), but there won’t be any increase in frequency, except for Meridian Water and Northumberland Park.

The Enfield regeneration is along the WAML. See the new flats going up at Ponders End for example.

The Piccadilly line is getting new trains (to replace the 45 year old existing stock), but the resignalling necessary to enable a frequency upgrade has been deferred. Nevertheless, as and when it does happen, it doesn’t help the WAML corridor.

The Northern line problems are south of Stockwell on the Morden branch. The Clapham stations are effectively unusable in the morning peak. The Battersea branch does nothing for this.

I honestly do respect both Bald Rick and Hwl's opinions and knowledge on this, and for a matter of fact, other subjects too. Both of you seem well informed and experienced. It is really insightful seeing the other side of the argument for this line, so I do appreciate it genuinely.

The Hertford East service was planned to go 3 trains an hour according to GA's bid during the mass timetable recast. Is this still not going to happen? I was led to believe it was deferred which would see an increase in trains for all the stations north of Ponders End.

Piccadilly line, ThamesLink and the upgrade to Great Northern is more oriented towards the New Southgate branch of Crossrail 2 that is being proposed. You are right in the sense it doesn't help out that much with the WAML.

In regards to Northern line south of Stockwell, isn't the Sutton Loop and local Southern services better positioned to combat the issues provided by this. I know it was said they are slow and unattractive but their capacity is underutilised and some sort of investment far cheaper than £31bn I am sure could help speed trains up and attract passengers to use the line further out than Streatham. They already go to Balham and/or Tooting and not all Southern trains are the maximum possible length they could be yet?

 

[hwl]

I wouldn’t say that old chap - you know more than anyone about everything!

A couple of points:

The peak services on the WAML from Broxbourne south are all 8 cars today, and rammed. The longer trains GA put on will help, of course (assuming GA sort out the platform length issue), but there won’t be any increase in frequency, except for Meridian Water and Northumberland Park.

The Enfield regeneration is along the WAML. See the new flats going up at Ponders End for example.

The Piccadilly line is getting new trains (to replace the 45 year old existing stock), but the resignalling necessary to enable a frequency upgrade has been deferred. Nevertheless, as and when it does happen, it doesn’t help the WAML corridor.

The Northern line problems are south of Stockwell on the Morden branch. The Clapham stations are effectively unusable in the morning peak. The Battersea branch does nothing for this.

Taking a few a bit further:

Even when TfL eventually find the money for the Picc signalling there will still be capacity limitations because many stations can't cope. (The new Siemens trains ordered were incompatible with the existing signalling and the trains are being redesigned but won't meet the power/weight and energy efficiency targets in modified state where as the Bombardier-Hitachi ones would have. Book your Pop-Corn for October).

The southern ends of the Northern and Victoria line: 75%+ of Vauxhall tube users are to/from SWR with lots of the rest busing to Vauxhall, the number of local users on foot is comparatively small overall. Battersea Northern Line Extension will take some of the existing bus heading passengers and those on foot (Nine Elms). (The NLE stations intercept bus corridors). As I pointed out previously Tooting Broadway entry /exits alone are on par with Fenchurch Street usage levels, small interventions won't work.
Mos

Small interventions on NR tracks help bridge the gap to CR2 opening in places.

 

[Bald Rick]

I honestly do respect both Bald Rick and Hwl's opinions and knowledge on this, and for a matter of fact, other subjects too. Both of you seem well informed and experienced. It is really insightful seeing the other side of the argument for this line, so I do appreciate it genuinely.

The Hertford East service was planned to go 3 trains an hour according to GA's bid during the mass timetable recast. Is this still not going to happen? I was led to believe it was deferred which would see an increase in trains for all the stations north of Ponders End.

Piccadilly line, ThamesLink and the upgrade to Great Northern is more oriented towards the New Southgate branch of Crossrail 2 that is being proposed. You are right in the sense it doesn't help out that much with the WAML.

In regards to Northern line south of Stockwell, isn't the Sutton Loop and local Southern services better positioned to combat the issues provided by this. I know it was said they are slow and unattractive but their capacity is underutilised and some sort of investment far cheaper than £31bn I am sure could help speed trains up and attract passengers to use the line further out than Streatham. They already go to Balham and/or Tooting and not all Southern trains are the maximum possible length they could be yet?

Re Hertford East, it’s 3tph in the peak already, although I think it was to go to 4. The extra train would be (effectively) a backwards extension of one of the Broxbourne starters. It wouldn’t be any more trains south of Broxbourne in the peak. The WAML is operating at 100% capacity almost all day south of Broxbourne; the only way to squeeze extra trains in is to harmonise the stopping patterns. And that means either adding calls to Stansted / Cambridge services, or dropping calls from the stoppers. Realistically, neither is achievable.

Re the Wimbledon loop. As has been said, their capacity is very well utilised north of Streatham - watch morning peak trains arriving at Blackfriars for the proof. There’s no way to speed them up without dropping calls. Given the intricacy of the south London timetable that wouldn’t work without building new ‘overtaking’ tracks, and that means building a tunnel through south London, and if you are going to do that, you need to put it in the place that gives the most benefit.