The Times: Labour considering cuts to Restoring Your Railway and dropping HS2 Euston

[Topological]

I've not heard that one, and I like it.

In my day we used to say that consultants borrowed your watch to tell you the time.

To be fair, given the abilities of politicians on all sides, I can see the value in paying someone to read a watch for them

 

[zwk500]

Charter trains have run on the Borders railway and indeed another one is planned for October this year. Locos used were 47s which are RA6 so dispensation must have been gained for those trains to run.

Apologies, an extremely poor phrasing on my part. One-off specials that exceed RA3 can run on the RA3 line with special conditions, so yes special dispensation will have been granted for the charters as they use the line fairly regularly.

Is the plan to greatly reduce the cost of such consultants in future years as part of Governmental savings?

I imagine they will simply choose to use consultants less rather than reduce the costs of such consultants. They could do this by overhauling the entire appraisal and approvals system, but I suspect they will do this by simply reducing the number of schemes committed to and being much tighter about what gets funding for progression.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Reeves interviewed by News Agents podcast (Emily Maitlis/Jon Soppell) yesterday and about 17mins in they specifically question her over HS2. Maitlis cites recent NAO report showing it to be poor value by cancelling phase 2 is costing more money so why don't they cancel it. Reeves responds saying that was previous govts decision but makes the point that she didn't make any changes to HS2 in here statement.

They then go onto push her about whats happening with Euston.

Maitlis "Is Euston going to be used?"

Reeves " I very much hope so" although then goes onto qualify we are doing a spending review and Haigh will have to look at all projects.

So potentially a chink of light here but as i said above it will be delayed though for affordability reasons but should remain the ultimate goal.

 

[BrianW]

Reeves interviewed by News Agents podcast (Emily Maitlis/Jon Soppell) yesterday and about 17mins in they specifically question her over HS2. Maitlis cites recent NAO report showing it to be poor value by cancelling phase 2 is costing more money so why don't they cancel it. Reeves responds saying that was previous govts decision but makes the point that she didn't make any changes to HS2 in here statement.

They then go onto push her about whats happening with Euston.

Maitlis "Is Euston going to be used?"

Reeves " I very much hope so" although then goes onto qualify we are doing a spending review and Haigh will have to look at all projects.

So potentially a chink of light here but as i said above it will be delayed though for affordability reasons but should remain the ultimate goal.

You may be applying some 'optimism bias' here- a glimmer of hope at the end of the tunnel-boring toward Euston?

There's a lot can happen even between now and the Budget on 30 October. A week in politics is a long time (Harold Wilson) let alone three months, or however many years and related reviews and rethinks ...

 

[Tezza1978]

So potentially a chink of light here but as i said above it will be delayed though for affordability reasons but should remain the ultimate goal.

IMO my best guess is the tunnels will shortly be approved and then its the station design that will be reviewed. Ultimately shrinking the number of platforms as Sunak planned to do is short sighted /reduces future potential so maybe they wll look at as cheap as possible full size design as planned and incorporate more commercial /office space to reduce the cost/get private sector contributions.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You may be applying some 'optimism bias' here- a glimmer of hope at the end of the tunnel-boring toward Euston?

There's a lot can happen even between now and the Budget on 30 October. A week in politics is a long time (Harold Wilson) let alone three months, or however many years and related reviews and rethinks ...

For sure I am but felt it was significant that Reeves firstly didn't use the opportunity of the adverse NAO report into HS2 to double down and then secondly didn't write off getting to Euston either. Of course reality is they can afford to hang it out for sometime and given it will take beyond Octobers budget to complete the three year comprehensive spending review (there doing a one year one for the budget) which is when a decision may or may not be taken.

 

[miklcct]

did you miss the smiley? For completeness: there is a view in the wider world that pensioners get an unfairly generous level of benefits/support especially from the Tory party who rely on an aging voter base to provide thier votes. CLEARLY & OBVIOUSLY not all pensioners vote Tory.


I find it incredible people cant look beyond the end of thier nose. The junior doctors pay rise is a structured deal across a number of years.

Junior doctor offered new pay deal in England

It is thought the new pay deal being offered is worth 22%, on average, over two years.

www.bbc.co.uk

The winter fuel payment changes are not an attack on pensioners. Those most in need will still benefit.

As an aside the state pension benefits from the so called "triple lock" which is generous at least in comparison to other benefits. It rose 8.5% this year. Under the triple lock system, the state pension increases each April in line with whichever of these three measures is highest:

• inflation, as measured by the Consumer Prices Index (CPI) in the September of the previous year
• the average increase in wages across the UK
• or 2.5%

Good - People who are entitled to support and benefits should get them. That's what they are for!

I think that 2.5% for the triple lock is too much. Bring it down to 1% and it will save Government's money in case of deflation.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

For sure I am but felt it was significant that Reeves firstly didn't use the opportunity of the adverse NAO report into HS2 to double down and then secondly didn't write off getting to Euston either. Of course reality is they can afford to hang it out for sometime and given it will take beyond Octobers budget to complete the three year comprehensive spending review (there doing a one year one for the budget) which is when a decision may or may not be taken.

Which imho is a sensible strategy even if some on this forum don't like it.

 

[edwin_m]

Euston is paused anyway pending a review, so there's no good reason for Reeves to say anything about it until that reports back.

 

[urbophile]

Not sure what 'strategic' means in this context, but seems unlikely that the North Wales line would have a better case for electrification. Cardiff to Swansea goes through much more urban area and generally sees higher frequencies, so you'd expect that £ for £ spent on electrification would give a much greater reduction in pollution where more people live. It probably has more scope for further frequency improvements in the future too. On the other hand, West of Llandudno Junction has barely an hourly-ish service much of the day, so it's not like electrification there is going to make that much difference. I could see more case for electrification of that route if it was just, Crewe to Llandudno, and rely on bi-modes for the rest of the line to Holyhead.

I'd guess the main argument for prioritising the North Wales line is the political one - that it shows more stuff being done in the North.

This would not be an issue in most of Europe. It's one of the few (two?) major land-and-sea routes between Britain and Ireland. If that's not strategic what is? Where else would a major trunk line not be electrified?

 

[RT4038]

This would not be an issue in most of Europe. It's one of the few (two?) major land-and-sea routes between Britain and Ireland. If that's not strategic what is? Where else would a major trunk line not be electrified?

Perhaps because rail has little or no relevance on this route (both freight and passenger) and seemingly unlikely to do so in the medium term?

 

[urbophile]

Perhaps because rail has little or no relevance on this route (both freight and passenger) and seemingly unlikely to do so in the medium term?

What is the alternative? Flying? The environmental costs of encouraging/subsidising the airlines are not sustainable.

 

[RT4038]

What is the alternative? Flying? The environmental costs of encouraging/subsidising the airlines are not sustainable.

Whatever, it is clearly not railway at present, and I don't think electrification will make any difference to that.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Euston is paused anyway pending a review, so there's no good reason for Reeves to say anything about it until that reports back.

Exactly. Get all the facts, study them and then make the decision.

 

[lachlan]

You never know, perhaps the government will come up with a rolling program of electrification, tied into our national sustainability/climate targets.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

You never know, perhaps the government will come up with a rolling program of electrification, tied into our national sustainability/climate targets.

I think it will happen but not in the next 12 months.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

In response to Chancellors statement, North Somerset Council have said still committed to Portishead line reopening, because although restoring railway fund has been cut, they are still subject to review by DfT

North Somerset remains committed to reopening the Portishead rail line

North Somerset Council remains committed to the Portishead to Bristol rail line

n-somerset.gov.uk

There is a thread more appropriate, but it is locked

Portishead approved

I would be surprised if route learning for that were happening given as you sat it's not approved. I would guess DB either have a new flow about to start or are about to take over one of the existing contracts. Mind you, didn’t quite a bit of work on Okehampton get going quietly before final...

www.railforums.co.uk

The below letter has been sent by Hendy and at least says Portishead is still in play.

https://x.com/Sadik4Pharmacy/status/1818574652295225510

 

[Irascible]

Portishead would be a daft one to axe without going through the full procedure, given it's at the final go/no-go, isn't it?

will it? Those most in need continue to receive the payment. It should not go to ALL pensioners. That it did was silly.

As someone else brought up, how much is means testing itself going to cost? that's not a million miles away from the consultancy moneypit.

Government needs to rebalance the economy to recognise younger people- the future, and future taxpaying supporters of of us all. That's difficult without growth.

Alas for the generations currently working. Jilted indeed. However "making workable plans for the future of the country" benefits everyone anyway. Just having *a* workable plan is already an improvement!

That may be true, but there are always new old people coming along and the new old people come faster than the old ones die out.

Looking at the colour of the political map of my part of the island - which is still full of older people - ageing does not equate to Tory voter. I didn't vote Labour because I like my ( LD ) MP which of course was the primary reason for my pick, & also because Labour have drifted too far right . I am definitely not moving right as I age & given my seething distdain ( I wish I could say how I really feel ) for members of the Conservative party & anyone right of them, not going to happen either. Many people round here are looking more at the Greens than anything else. I suspect the LDs at least are here to stay.

--

I think the Times is conservative with the small c, rather than Tory.

 

[Class 170101]

At least with housing there's a clear need, and it requires less skill than something like rail electrification so less likely to run into the problems the railway got itself into last decade.

But it needs to be the correct housing for any given location and seeing how difficult it is to get the private sector to do this.

From the manifesto:

I suspect the second of those may hamstring borrowing for investment.

But surely to get (the) debt (pile) down you need to have a current budget surplus in order to pay down the built up debt.

Neither positive or negative, no confirmation or denial that HS2 will reach Euston. My perspective is that after so much upheaval in order to prepare for it, it would be bonkers to give up on it now. From https://www.theguardian.com/politic...economy-labour-tories-jeremy-hunt-uk-politics:

It will be up to Starmer whether Euston goes ahead being in his constituency regardless of the safeguards in politics meant to ensure politicans aren't deciding on projects that directly affect their constituency.

 

[Busaholic]

As someone else brought up, how much is means testing itself going to cost? that's not a million miles away from the consultancy m

Means testing would cost much more than the amount saved. So many better things they could have done, e.g.
1. Withdraw it from pensioners living abroad, with the possible exception of Ireland.
2. Pay it to those hundreds of thousands that the government say could claim Pension Credit, but don't, for a variety of reasons. If the government claim to know this, and therefore acknowledge they're in poverty, what possible reason can there be for not paying it out to them?
2. Continue to pay it to those stuck on the old pension rate for the rest of their lives and seeing their standard of living decrease in comparison to 'new' pensioners every year.

It should also be made clear to the uninformed that the £200 Winter Fuel Payment is not paid per pensioner but per pension household, so two pensioners living together will receive £100 each.

 

[Magdalia]

how much is means testing itself going to cost?

For winter fuel allowance, not very much, because eligibility is determined by means tests that have already taken place for other benefits. That's the whole point of determining eligibility in that way.

Pay it to those hundreds of thousands that the government say could claim Pension Credit, but don't, for a variety of reasons.

But the government doesn't know who they are because they haven't claimed. The "hundreds of thousands" is only an estimate, not a list of people.

 

[HSTEd]

Personally I think it might have been better to axe the Winter Fuel Payment entirely and increase the pension credit eligibility by ~£6 per week.

 

[Snow1964]

Means testing would cost much more than the amount saved. So many better things they could have done, e.g.
1. Withdraw it from pensioners living abroad, with the possible exception of Ireland.
2. Pay it to those hundreds of thousands that the government say could claim Pension Credit, but don't, for a variety of reasons. If the government claim to know this, and therefore acknowledge they're in poverty, what possible reason can there be for not paying it out to them?
2. Continue to pay it to those stuck on the old pension rate for the rest of their lives and seeing their standard of living decrease in comparison to 'new' pensioners every year.

Means testing used to be expensive when it involved lots of paper forms. Both online self assessment and Universal credit are now calculated within seconds when done online. Part of the speech mentioned using AI to improve efficiency.

The fact that estimated 800,000 don't claim pension credit, can either be choice (too proud), too lazy to submit a claim, or haven't realised how generous it is so haven't considered claiming as not expecting to get anything.

The old pension rate (pre 2016 retires) is lower, but had top ups that those on new scheme can't get. So potentially those on old scheme can get more.

The latest Government figures show that about 68% of pensioners pay some form of income tax, because their company or private pensions added to state pension take them over tax threshold. So it sounds like only a minority (although must be nearer 3.5 million) are in the non tax paying pensioner category).

I did watch the speech, and I am sure it was said winter fuel allowance was staying for all those over certain age (think she said 80), although if we should be subsidising old people living in big drafty family homes with lots of spare bedrooms (adding to housing shortage) instead of cosy more appropriately sized retirement homes is for different thread.

 

[The exile]

This would not be an issue in most of Europe. It's one of the few (two?) major land-and-sea routes between Britain and Ireland. If that's not strategic what is? Where else would a major trunk line not be electrified?

The rail element of many land-sea-land corridors in Europe has also been neglected - the improvement coming when the bullet is bitten and it becomes a land - bridge/tunnel - land crossing. Unfortunately, the Irish Sea is rather wider than the Channel, the various connections into /out of Denmark etc.

 

[DarloRich]

As someone else brought up, how much is means testing itself going to cost?

Means testing would cost much more than the amount saved.

the means test has already taken place because the suggestion ( and we need to see the detail) is that only those on certain benefits will be eligible. This is all publicly available information!

( now CLEARLY the extra work in administrating the scheme will cost some money but not as much as setting up an entirely new means test just for this benefit. That should go without saying but here..........)

 

[sprunt]

Agreed, especially if you get a pensioner whose income is just above the threshold to qualify for pension credit due to having a small private pension topping up a state pension.

Some posters, especially on twitter seem to think pensioners who don't qualify for pension credit are all multi millionaires whom an extra £200 during winter is simply pocket change

The first sentence pretty much exactly describes my dad, whose small private pension has over the last year or two taken him to the point where he has to pay a small amount of income tax.

He describes the WPA as "the champagne fund".

 

[Meole]

The East West rail will never complete under these cuts including the loss of the Aylesbury connection.

 

[Kingham West]

It’s a shift from investment spending, to resource spending , as we all feared , RYR cost sod all , saving £179m. However this shift in emphasis was to be expected, and it will get tougher .
Lots of new homes , no new railways !!

 

[Magdalia]

The East West rail will never complete under these cuts including the loss of the Aylesbury connection.

As far as I'm aware it isn't the intention to build the eastern end of East West Rail primarily with public funding.

The key factor for East West Rail will be the locations of New Towns recommended by Lyons and Barker in a year's time.

With sufficient New Town building next to the route East West Rail will be funded mainly by developer contributions and other private sector finance.

 

[DarloRich]

Lots of new homes no new railways !!

you cant live on a train......................

RYR cost sod all , saving £179m.

I would say wasted a lot of that on PR puffery designed to fool older voters into voting Tory. Most of the schemes were pie in the sky. There are bigger issues ot address in the UK than restoring the railway line to Little Sondlington on the Wold