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Things that railways in other countries do better than in the UK

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JonasB

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Like our restricted loading gauge, this is one of the penalties for us in being the first in the game: the ferrophobia that kept railways out of central London. Though I suppose a similar policy must have operated in Paris.

No, it's one of the penalties of having a "It can't be done, it's too complicated and too expensive"-attitude combined with quite a bit of "Not invented here". Sorry for being harsh, but in most larger European cities there were a couple of larger termini stations originally, just like London today.

Stockholm originally had two stations, the north station and the south station. But the people in charge realised that is was not an optimal solution, and in 1871 the railway connecting the stations opened together with a new central station. That railway was mostly built in a tunnel or on bridges and extremly expensive at a cost of 2 million riksdaler per kilometre, compared to between 50.000 to 100.000 for a normal railway at the time.

In the 1950s, Brussels got a new central station and a rail tunnel under central Brussels connecting the north and south stations.

Berlin originally had eight large termini stations, but realised that was not practical for passengers. And now it is very easy to change train in Berlin.

And in Vienna, the Hauptbahnhof is a pretty recent project.

The same with the loading gauge. When the Berne gauge was adopted as standard in Europe France started to upgrade their railways to the new standard, what did the UK do?
 
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HSTEd

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In North America essentially all locomotives can work in multiple, with a standard also widely used by push pull stock.

BR was moving in this direction with only three passenger MU standards still being purchased at privatisation.
(EMU with tightlock, TDM loco hauled and the BSI Sprinter system).

Since privatisation what progress was made has been lost.

We should adopt a tightlock autocoupler and single MU/ECP standard for all stock.
 

AlexNL

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That would work if all the stock was still controlled mechanically, but that isn't the case. Computers control everything nowadays and those things often aren't compatible with other trains - sometimes not even with a train made by the same company, let alone a different one.

It wouldn't be impossible to come up with a standard to have different types of TMS talk to each other, but it would be fairly complex. Just look at how long the ETCS standard has been undergoing development, and that is just control and signalling.
 

HSTEd

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That would work if all the stock was still controlled mechanically, but that isn't the case. Computers control everything nowadays and those things often aren't compatible with other trains - sometimes not even with a train made by the same company, let alone a different one.
And yet modern control systems on trains are integrated with the AAR standard every day, including the Class 68.
And in the Multiple Unit sphere the Class 172 was built to comply with the Sprinter MU specification.

Safety Grade PLC-peripherals are easily capable of providing the control signals that are required and can be built into the trains from the design stage, they are widely used in other transport applications such as in buses and the like.
A computer is capable of detecting a voltage on a train line and using that to influence it's operation, or reporting another voltage out on another train line using a PLC peripheral.

It wouldn't be impossible to come up with a standard to have different types of TMS talk to each other, but it would be fairly complex. Just look at how long the ETCS standard has been undergoing development, and that is just control and signalling.

The ETCS standard was ready for use not long after it was first mooted. It was also a wireless standard which added numerous complexities.

EDIT:

As an example, New York Air Brake offers a range of products that will allow Electropneumatic brake control and AAR compatible multiple unit control signals over two wire pairs, one of which is used for power. (WireDP and similar)
 
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AlbertBeale

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Well it's hard to find things where all foreign railways are universally better than all UK railways (abroad is a big place) but I think the point is valid. There are cities where, like London, most railway connections will require a change of station. But looking at European cities on average, travellers are far less likely to need to transfer.

To take some of your examples... In Brussels, only a few obscure stations can't be reached directly from Brussels Zuid but can be reached from other Brussels stations, and even then they can be reached from Zuid with a single change (so no need to leave the railway system). In Amsterdam, very few stations can be reached from Amsterdam Zuid but not Centraal, and it's very unlikely anyone would transfer from Centraal to Zuid to catch a train - they would take a train from Centraal and change somewhere like Utrecht or Schiphol. In Berlin, most places can be reached directly from the Hauptbahnhof.

You can find examples where a change of station is needed, or faster, but in most cities the proportion of journeys requiring a passenger to leave the railway system and travel between stations is much lower than in London.

Hi - I take your points here - though I was responding to the assertion that, "In most countries, France being a notable exception : no need to transfer between stations in the capital cities...". Paris might be the only one where the hassle is similar to London, but it's not the case that there is no need to transfer in other cities. And it seems to me that an obvious reason is to do with the size of the country and hence the complexity of the railways, and the number of different destinations to be served. Since the majority of railway services are national rather than international ones, then a smaller country, with less of a variety of national journeys, is going to be able to manage with fewer stations in its capital for longer-distance journeys.

And in places where there is now better integration and ease of interchange for longer journeys, it's not true that that's always because they built their railways more sensibly in the first place - it's often (as in Berlin and Vienna's cases) something they've done recently. (And in the former's case - though not the latter's - the amount of wartime damage meant that there were fewer untouchable historic sites that precluded rationalisation of infrastructure.)

So I agree with you that, "in most cities the proportion of journeys requiring a passenger to leave the railway system and travel between stations is much lower than in London", but my point remains that while London might be an especially bad case, it's far from the only one. (And I speak from bitter experience of a late-night attempt to transfer between stations in Madrid many years ago.)

Obviously cross-city lines, where they exist, can help this. But in London's case, the Thameslink and Crossrail routes seem primarily for commuters and regional (ie long-distance commuter!) services, with no fast long-distance intercity service using them. (Not that avoiding the hassle of switching stations isn't helpful for shorter journeys too, of course.) Does the lesson of the West London line, and the history of intercity services using that, suggest that long-distance through services might need to go through the centre of London if they're to be viable?
 

MarcVD

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That would work if all the stock was still controlled mechanically, but that isn't the case. Computers control everything nowadays and those things often aren't compatible with other trains - sometimes not even with a train made by the same company, let alone a different one.

I would say it is the other way around... it is much easier to interface two computer systems together than two mechanical systems, even more so if they were not designed to work together from the beginning.

Look for example at the SNCB rolling stock quickly fitted with multiple unit and reversible working capability over the standard UIC train line. You have it everywhere now, HLE 13, 18, 19, 27, and M4, M5, M6, I11 cars, all inter operable. That would only have been a dream with electro-mechanical devices.
 

duesselmartin

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I think the problem with cities like London, Paris, or Dublin is that the system is designed to focus on them as final destination. The German or Italian network ist much more decentralised.
Berlin had the space after 1990 to build a new station.
Vienna and Lisbon seem the most radical in redevelopement.
How big would London Hauptbahnhof be and where would you locate it?
 

JonasB

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And in places where there is now better integration and ease of interchange for longer journeys, it's not true that that's always because they built their railways more sensibly in the first place - it's often (as in Berlin and Vienna's cases) something they've done recently. (And in the former's case - though not the latter's - the amount of wartime damage meant that there were fewer untouchable historic sites that precluded rationalisation of infrastructure.)

I'm not sure there was a lot of wartime damage in Berlin in the 1870s when the Stadtbahn was built.
 

AlbertBeale

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I think the problem with cities like London, Paris, or Dublin is that the system is designed to focus on them as final destination. The German or Italian network ist much more decentralised.
Berlin had the space after 1990 to build a new station.
Vienna and Lisbon seem the most radical in redevelopement.
How big would London Hauptbahnhof be and where would you locate it?

Well, the Italian network might be more decentralised, and hence many Rome stations are not terminals ... but there are still lots of them [Rome stations].

Is changing stations less needed in Lisbon now? It's been many years since I was there.

In terms of the focus on stations in some capitals being the final destination - that's partly a result of the geography of a country. Since London is pretty much in one corner of Britain, there are fewer long-distance journeys that take you via London than would be the case if the capital was - say - Birmingham.

For a London Hauptbahnhof, I guess you'd need something big enough to deal with some of the trains from the north and the west/south-west, especially (being the directions with most long-distance traffic) - though only a proportion of them; since many people are just getting off in London - that also gave a same-station interchange with trains on their way to the continent [and hence, in the process, the possibility of through trains from outside London to Europe], and which also fed into (or provided connections with) the many routes from London around south-east England. Which all sounds rather unlikely... However, if somewhere was to be set aside for this, I'm sure we'd all have pet suggestions of what should be removed to make way for it.
 

anme

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Don’t think so. All Scandinavian ones seem to be ok.

My experience travelling with debit and credit cards from various countries is that acceptance is always a bit hit and miss.

Chip and pin credit cards are the most reliable, but even with these there can be occasional problems. Debit cards sometimes work and sometimes don't. The situation can vary from machine to machine even in the same country. It's best to carry a couple of different cards if you can.
 

F Great Eastern

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Like I said in a different thread, it always seem to be British banks.

In Germany cash is king.

Germans dislike using cards and prefer to use cash and this is why many machines do not take Visa or Mastercard but often take a German card I forget the name of which apparently has less fees for both sellers and merchants but tracks you less.

If you go to places like Dusseldorf or Cologne you will often find cash machines next to a batch of ticket machines and you barely see Germans using them, it's always the foreigners.
 

Bletchleyite

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In Germany cash is king.

Germans dislike using cards and prefer to use cash and this is why many machines do not take Visa or Mastercard but often take a German card I forget the name of which apparently has less fees for both sellers and merchants but tracks you less.

It used to be the EC-Karte, but it has since been subsumed into Maestro in the manner Switch was, i.e. that a German Maestro card isn't the same as one everywhere else.

The Dutch play a similarly silly game - there are for instance card-only Albert Heijn stores (a major supermarket probably comparable to Sainsbury's in character) which are basically closed to non-Dutch residents due to accepting only those cards.
 

radamfi

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The Dutch play a similarly silly game - there are for instance card-only Albert Heijn stores (a major supermarket probably comparable to Sainsbury's in character) which are basically closed to non-Dutch residents due to accepting only those cards.

These are the "to go" convenience stores, of which some are cashless. The ones in main railway stations tend to accept Visa and Mastercard but others don't. Visitors from some neighbouring countries will have Maestro or V Pay, but not visitors from the UK, Ireland and most countries outside Europe.
 

Bletchleyite

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Indeed, these AH to go places are not remotely like the Sainsbury stores mentioned earlier.

They are basically like Sainsbury's Locals - I was comparing the general AH brand to Sainsbury's - it's neither budget nor premium, it just sits in the middle somewhere.

I don't think it makes the lack of acceptance sensible.
 

radamfi

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They are basically like Sainsbury's Locals - I was comparing the general AH brand to Sainsbury's - it's neither budget nor premium, it just sits in the middle somewhere.

I don't think it makes the lack of acceptance sensible.

It is now illegal in the EU to surcharge cards, meaning that if AH started accept Visa/Mastercard they would have to absorb the cost transaction costs. Whilst that would lead to more sales from foreigners, there is a danger that some domestic customers (i.e. the vast majority) would use credit cards even though they have a debit card. So I can see the logic in only accepting Visa/Mastercard where there are a lot of tourists. Despite that, some other Dutch supermarket chains accept Visa/Mastercard even though they have fewer outlets in tourist areas than AH.
 

Bletchleyite

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It is now illegal in the EU to surcharge cards, meaning that if AH started accept Visa/Mastercard they would have to absorb the cost transaction costs. Whilst that would lead to more sales from foreigners, there is a danger that some domestic customers (i.e. the vast majority) would use credit cards even though they have a debit card. So I can see the logic in only accepting Visa/Mastercard where there are a lot of tourists. Despite that, some other Dutch supermarket chains accept Visa/Mastercard even though they have fewer outlets in tourist areas than AH.

Fair point - another negative effect of that law. I'd have simply made it that you can only surcharge by the genuine additional cost of acceptance over cash with a profit margin of maybe 10%.
 

anme

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They are basically like Sainsbury's Locals - I was comparing the general AH brand to Sainsbury's - it's neither budget nor premium, it just sits in the middle somewhere.

I don't think it makes the lack of acceptance sensible.

Can I ask what assessment you have carried out to decide whether AH's decision is "sensible"?
 

joncombe

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Being able to step straight off the station platform onto the adjacent road, car park, bus stops or whatever beside the station. Rather than the UK approach of making you walk to the one specific point from which you are allowed to leave the station, with all the rest fenced off.
 

F Great Eastern

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Being able to step straight off the station platform onto the adjacent road, car park, bus stops or whatever beside the station. Rather than the UK approach of making you walk to the one specific point from which you are allowed to leave the station, with all the rest fenced off.

Good luck stopping fare evasion with that.
 

Jonny

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That would work if all the stock was still controlled mechanically, but that isn't the case. Computers control everything nowadays and those things often aren't compatible with other trains - sometimes not even with a train made by the same company, let alone a different one.

It wouldn't be impossible to come up with a standard to have different types of TMS talk to each other, but it would be fairly complex. Just look at how long the ETCS standard has been undergoing development, and that is just control and signalling.

Unfortunately, train manufacturers are able to achieve a 'lock-in' with relative ease, since the customer can then - perfectly reasonably - specify that the order is compatible with existing stock.

If a standard could be agreed, then it would be good. Sadly there is no incentive for train manufacturers to co-operate.
 

AY1975

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Not operating from the first principle that their customers are a load of robbing bastards is something that railways in other countries do better than in the UK.

Yes, there is much more of a culture of mistrust here in the UK, where the powers-that-be tend to assume that everyone is a potential criminal, and take whatever precautions they deem to be necessary, whereas in mainland Europe, on the whole (although more so in some countries than in others), they assume that most people are honest.

See also the threads on what is the point of ticket barriers at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/whats-the-point-in-ticket-barriers-at-stations.178935/ and on how fare evasion is dealt with abroad compared to the UK at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-is-fare-evasion-dealt-with-abroad-compared-to-the-uk.177639/

"Open" stations (without barriers) are the norm in most of mainland Europe, although barriers have recently made a comeback at some stations in France (and I believe that manual ticket checks are now quite common at platform entrances in Italy), and in the Netherlands many stations have been gated, after about 40-50 years of open stations, as part of the new "OV Chipkaart" smartcard ticketing system.

If barriers genuinely are necessary in the UK, then the Rail Delivery Group would do well to look to the Netherlands, where they have made much more of an effort to ensure that most passengers have barrier-compliant tickets. Tickets issued by non-Dutch carriers for travel to and from the Netherlands, such as Belgian and German Railways, and even Interrail passes, usually have a barcode that will operate the barriers in Dutch stations.

If the Dutch can manage this, even with some trains run by private operators such as Arriva, surely so could the RDG in the UK if only they got their act together. It seems that in the Netherlands they have thought this through properly unlike in the UK.

Unlike in the UK, where gatelines are normally staffed whenever they are in operation, in the Netherlands they usually have an intercom that you have to use to call for help in the (relatively, at least compared to the UK) unlikely event that your ticket won't work the gates. You also find that at some secondary entrances to UK stations such as Cheltenham Spa, though. Not sure whether staffing or intercoms are better - I guess there are pros and cons of both.
 
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