Thought I was buying an Anytime ticket, but on collecting it was an Advance

[Bungaroosh]

Hello, I'm looking for your sage advice.

I bought these from the Chiltern Railways website.

2 x Anytime Day Singles from Manchester to London St Pancras via Sheffield (Two Together Railcard) on Sun 5 Feb ... on the understanding that I could break the journey in Sheffield and then get any train from Sheffield to London later the same day.

On collecting the tickets at the machine, it spat out 2 x Anytime Day Singles from Manchester to Sheffield, and 2 x Advance Single on a booked train that I'll be unable to travel on.

Ideally, I'd like to get a full refund from Chiltern and then book Two Together tickets to be able to get from Manchester leaving on the 11:35 on Sunday 5th (which due to engineering works goes to Sheffield with one stop at Huddersfield) and then continue on to London St Pancras after a few hours but not in a booked train.

Is the £68.60 (full non-railcard price) valid via this Huddersfield route? I'd prefer to shorten the journey to Sheffield by getting the 11:35 direct train, rather than a rail replacement bus that takes an hour longer.

Many thanks.

 

[Watershed]

Hello, I'm looking for your sage advice.

I bought these from the Chiltern Railways website.

2 x Anytime Day Singles from Manchester to London St Pancras via Sheffield (Two Together Railcard) on Sun 5 Feb ... on the understanding that I could break the journey in Sheffield and then get any train from Sheffield to London later the same day.

On collecting the tickets at the machine, it spat out 2 x Anytime Day Singles from Manchester to Sheffield, and 2 x Advance Single on a booked train that I'll be unable to travel on.

Ideally, I'd like to get a full refund from Chiltern and then book Two Together tickets to be able to get from Manchester leaving on the 11:35 on Sunday 5th (which due to engineering works goes to Sheffield with one stop at Huddersfield) and then continue on to London St Pancras after a few hours but not in a booked train.

Is the £68.60 (full non-railcard price) valid via this Huddersfield route? I'd prefer to shorten the journey to Sheffield by getting the 11:35 direct train, rather than a rail replacement bus that takes an hour longer.

Many thanks.

The Chiltern site is really poor for this sort of stuff - it sells split tickets without telling you where it's split, or that it has even done so. I would definitely ask for a refund here, as they have misled you when selling the ticket. Do let us know if they are difficult about refunding you.

Whilst Manchester-London tickets are ordinarily valid via Sheffield, this validity is only via the Hope Valley route. Online journey planners will therefore not offer Manchester-London fares via Huddersfield. Nevertheless, I think you would be valid to travel via Huddersfield under the following provision of the Routeing Guide:

Any through train diverted from its usual route will count as a permitted route between the stations it is normally scheduled to call at

I don't think you will encounter any issues with breaking your journey at Sheffield, as there aren't any barriers there.

If you want to minimise the chances of any potential problems with having your ticket checked on your train to Sheffield, you might want to travel in the front 3 coaches of the train (assuming it's a 6 coach 185), as the conductor will normally stay in the rear set.

 

[Haywain]

Is the £68.60 (full non-railcard price) valid via this Huddersfield route? I'd prefer to shorten the journey to Sheffield by getting the 11:35 direct train, rather than a rail replacement bus that takes an hour longer.

This does not appear to be a through ticket (there is no Anytime Day Single between Manchestrr and London), so may still include an Advance fare. Be careful to ensure you have either the flexibility you want or the appropriate time between trains in Sheffield.

 

[Bungaroosh]

The Chiltern site is really poor for this sort of stuff - it sells split tickets without telling you where it's split, or that it has even done so. I would definitely ask for a refund here, as they have misled you when selling the ticket. Do let us know if they are difficult about refunding you.

Whilst Manchester-London tickets are ordinarily valid via Sheffield, this validity is only via the Hope Valley route. Online journey planners will therefore not offer Manchester-London fares via Huddersfield. Nevertheless, I think you would be valid to travel via Huddersfield under the following provision of the Routeing Guide:


I don't think you will encounter any issues with breaking your journey at Sheffield, as there aren't any barriers there.

If you want to minimise the chances of any potential problems with having your ticket checked on your train to Sheffield, you might want to travel in the front 3 coaches of the train (assuming it's a 6 coach 185), as the conductor will normally stay in the rear set.

This is brilliant. Thank you.

I was surprised to get a quibble-free refund from them for the tickets I had booked from London to Manchester for today (I'm writing this from a plane having just landed at Manchester Airport). I just did like an online form and took photos of the TVM issued tickets.

Hopefully they'll be as cooperative this time. That text from the Routeing Guide is particularly helpful. I had already arranged with friends in Sheffield to drop in for a leisurely Sunday roast!

This does not appear to be a through ticket (there is no Anytime Day Single between Manchestrr and London), so may still include an Advance fare. Be careful to ensure you have either the flexibility you want or the appropriate time between trains in Sheffield.

The £68.60 I believe is an Off Peak Single. I'll try to get that (for two people with the railcard discount) and have that text from the Routeing Guide to hand (and also sit in the recommended carriages!)

 

[JaJaWa]

Is the "Advance" part of the ticket not just a seat reservation?

 

[yorkie]

Hello, I'm looking for your sage advice.

I bought these from the Chiltern Railways website.

2 x Anytime Day Singles from Manchester to London St Pancras via Sheffield (Two Together Railcard) on Sun 5 Feb ... on the understanding that I could break the journey in Sheffield and then get any train from Sheffield to London later the same day.

On collecting the tickets at the machine, it spat out 2 x Anytime Day Singles from Manchester to Sheffield, and 2 x Advance Single on a booked train that I'll be unable to travel on.

Ideally, I'd like to get a full refund from Chiltern and then book Two Together tickets to be able to get from Manchester leaving on the 11:35 on Sunday 5th (which due to engineering works goes to Sheffield with one stop at Huddersfield) and then continue on to London St Pancras after a few hours but not in a booked train.

Is the £68.60 (full non-railcard price) valid via this Huddersfield route? I'd prefer to shorten the journey to Sheffield by getting the 11:35 direct train, rather than a rail replacement bus that takes an hour longer.

Many thanks.

Split ticketing is a really useful feature, which can allow journeys via non-permitted routes (this is useful for all sorts of reasons; it can be the fastest way to make a journey) and/or reduce the cost, compared to a through fare.

However any retailer selling a combination of tickets ought to make it clear exactly what tickets are being sold before you pay.

In future you may wish to consider an alternative retailer that does this; there are several available but you may want to try the forum's site? This also has the option to turn splits off, if you don't want them. You can also exclude advance fares and select only flexible fares, which would avoid the speciifc issue that occured here. If you do want seat reservations (which could still be on flexible fares), you also benefit from a seat selector.

Let us know how you get on with the refund.

 

[Haywain]

Is the "Advance" part of the ticket not just a seat reservation?

No.

 

[Class800]

Where does it say Advance? I only see one picture saying Anytime Day Single with 2 legs one with a seat reserved

 

[Haywain]

Where does it say Advance? I only see one picture saying Anytime Day Single with 2 legs one with a seat reserved

Try this from the opening post:

On collecting the tickets at the machine, it spat out 2 x Anytime Day Singles from Manchester to Sheffield, and 2 x Advance Single on a booked train that I'll be unable to travel on.

 

[danm14]

Where does it say Advance? I only see one picture saying Anytime Day Single with 2 legs one with a seat reserved

There is no Anytime Day Single between Manchester and London, nor is there any ticket priced at £40.20 with Railcard (£80.40 for two people).

Chiltern has actually sold a combination of an Anytime Day Single from Manchester to Sheffield and an Advance Single from Sheffield to London, but misled the user that they were buying one ticket, an Anytime Day Single, for the entire journey - with the net result that the user thought they could take a later train from Sheffield (which they could with an Anytime Day Single), but actually couldn't because they had been sold an Advance Single without their knowledge.

Apparently this is normal for Chiltern.

 

[James H]

Does the way Chiltern's website handles this meet the requirements for accreditation?

If it does, it shouldn't.

 

[Class800]

Try this from the opening post:

But on the ticket image itself?

 

[Haywain]

But on the ticket image itself?

The OP knew what he'd got after collecting the tickets, so I'd imagine it was fairly obvious on the ticket.

 

[CyrusWuff]

A similar example is York to Cross Gates, where it generally does an Advance to Leeds then an Anytime Day Single to Cross Gates.

I believe it'll issue it as just one barcode as well if you request an e-ticket, rather than separate ones for each leg!

 

[Bungaroosh]

To remove all ambiguity (although I did state this in the opening post), here are the tickets that I got from the machine, and which I can't use.
Chiltern has sold me something different from what they told me they were selling me.

I'll buy new tickets from somewhere else (probably a machine at Manchester Piccadilly now), and fight for a refund of this £80.40.
I may have to go to my bank for a refund if they don't give me one. But I'd probably write a letter through the post to them if my message via their online form doesn't bring any joy.

The gist is, they told me they were selling X, I thought I was buying X, I paid for X, and they delivered Y.

 

[alistairlees]

To remove all ambiguity (although I did state this in the opening post), here are the tickets that I got from the machine, and which I can't use.
Chiltern has sold me something different from what they told me they were selling me.

I'll buy new tickets from somewhere else (probably a machine at Manchester Piccadilly now), and fight for a refund of this £80.40.
I may have to go to my bank for a refund if they don't give me one. But I'd probably write a letter through the post to them if my message via their online form doesn't bring any joy.

The gist is, they told me they were selling X, I thought I was buying X, I paid for X, and they delivered Y.

View attachment 128167

Yes, I think you have been missold these tickets and are entitled to a full refund. No retailer (whether a train operator or an independent retailer) should be selling tickets in such a misleading way.

 

[Bungaroosh]

There is no Anytime Day Single between Manchester and London, nor is there any ticket priced at £40.20 with Railcard (£80.40 for two people).

Chiltern has actually sold a combination of an Anytime Day Single from Manchester to Sheffield and an Advance Single from Sheffield to London, but misled the user that they were buying one ticket, an Anytime Day Single, for the entire journey - with the net result that the user thought they could take a later train from Sheffield (which they could with an Anytime Day Single), but actually couldn't because they had been sold an Advance Single without their knowledge.

Apparently this is normal for Chiltern.

I might pilfer your middle sentence here if if they respond unfavourably to my initial request for a refund and I need to write a more formal complaint letter to them.

Thank you!



Update: I've just checked my email.

They have replied to me in the negative:
--------------------------------------------
Thank you for your email.

I am sorry that you did not get the tickets you were expecting.

I have looked on our system and the tickets you have booked are an anytime single to Sheffield from Manchester Piccadilly, the second leg is an advance ticket from Sheffield to London St Pancras. This would have been on our website when booking the tickets in the first instance also I can see on the screen shot of your booking confirmation that you have not clicked on the down arrow by the Sheffield to London part of the journey. If you press on this arrow it will open up the full booking for the second leg of your journey this will show you this is an advance ticket.

You have selected the cheapest way to travel by splitting the ticket journey. I am sorry we are unable to change these tickets. If you require any further assistance with your online booking, please contact our web team who will be able to assist you.

03456005165 Option 2 this will take you through to our online team.

Thank you for your time.

kind Regards

Xxxxxxx Xxxxx


Edit to remove staff name.

 

[Class800]

Does it now come down to whether the OP can prove having clicked on the down arrow by the second leg?

Or are there other grounds for appeal?

 

[alistairlees]

I might pilfer your middle sentence here if if they respond unfavourably to my initial request for a refund and I need to write a more formal complaint letter to them.

Thank you!



Update: I've just checked my email.

They have replied to me in the negative:
--------------------------------------------
Thank you for your email.

I am sorry that you did not get the tickets you were expecting.

I have looked on our system and the tickets you have booked are an anytime single to Sheffield from Manchester Piccadilly, the second leg is an advance ticket from Sheffield to London St Pancras. This would have been on our website when booking the tickets in the first instance also I can see on the screen shot of your booking confirmation that you have not clicked on the down arrow by the Sheffield to London part of the journey. If you press on this arrow it will open up the full booking for the second leg of your journey this will show you this is an advance ticket.

You have selected the cheapest way to travel by splitting the ticket journey. I am sorry we are unable to change these tickets. If you require any further assistance with your online booking, please contact our web team who will be able to assist you.

03456005165 Option 2 this will take you through to our online team.

Thank you for your time.

kind Regards

Xxxxxxx Xxxxx

Well, I just tried booking this (apart from paying) and I cannot see any mention of Advance tickets or split tickets before paying. The whole journey is described as an "Anytime Day Single ticket". Are they seriously saying that they only tell you that they have split your tickets after you paid? And that it is your fault that you did not click on a link in your confirmation email to find this out?

This is the last page before payment:


The ticket is clearly described as an Anytime Day Single from Manchester to London.

 

[Bungaroosh]

Well, I just tried booking this (apart from paying) and I cannot see any mention of Advance tickets or split tickets before paying. The whole journey is described as an "Anytime Day Single ticket". Are they seriously saying that they only tell you that they have split your tickets after you paid? And that it is your fault that you did not click on a link in your confirmation email to find this out?

They are lying.

I've drafted a mildly stroppy reply.

BEFORE ARROW CLICK:


AFTER ARROW CLICK:


I was about to send this:

-------------------------------
Thank you for your reply.

What you state is incorrect.

There is and was no mention on your website when I bought this ticket that I was being sold an Advance ticket that is only valid on a booked train. Otherwise I would not have bought it.

Here is what happens on your website

1 - Before clicking the arrow
[image as above]

2 - After clicking the arrow.
[image as above]

The only type of ticket mentioned is an Anytime Day Single. There is no mention here and there was no mention at any stage of the ticket purchasing process of an Advance ticket that would be restricted to specific, booked trains.

Please issue the refund as requested, and/or escalate this request to a manager.

With thanks and best regards,

---------------------------

I haven't sent it yet. I've got to do a bit more work tonight but I'll see if people here have any feedback. I'd like to get it sent tonight so they can maybe give a second response tomorrow. I will be peed off if I'm £80 out of pocket though through their deceit, effectively.

I should ask her to provide the screen grab to show that this is an Advance ticket ... maybe ...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not normally litigious, but I would certainly sue over this in Money Claim Online in the event that neither they nor the Ombudsman solve it. A chargeback via your bank would also be worth a go.

Furthermore if they know this is an issue they may actually be committing fraud.

Does it now come down to whether the OP can prove having clicked on the down arrow by the second leg?

Or are there other grounds for appeal?

The fact that it clearly states they are being sold one ticket per person - an Anytime Day Single.

Even if it was a split of two Anytime Day Singles that is mis-sold. If they know about it and wilfully allow it to continue there may actually be criminal fraud involved. Though more likely it's just incompetent.

(I know there isn't a through ticket, but that's irrelevant, it is still misdescribed and thus a refund must be paid).

 

[alistairlees]

They are lying.

I've drafted a mildly stroppy reply.

BEFORE ARROW CLICK:
View attachment 128180

AFTER ARROW CLICK:
View attachment 128181

I was about to send this:

-------------------------------
Thank you for your reply.

What you state is incorrect.

There is and was no mention on your website when I bought this ticket that I was being sold an Advance ticket that is only valid on a booked train. Otherwise I would not have bought it.

Here is what happens on your website

1 - Before clicking the arrow
[image as above]

2 - After clicking the arrow.
[image as above]

The only type of ticket mentioned is an Anytime Day Single. There is no mention here and there was no mention at any stage of the ticket purchasing process of an Advance ticket that would be restricted to specific, booked trains.

Please issue the refund as requested, and/or escalate this request to a manager.

With thanks and best regards,

---------------------------

I haven't sent it yet. I've got to do a bit more work tonight but I'll see if people here have any feedback. I'd like to get it sent tonight so they can maybe give a second response tomorrow. I will be peed off if I'm £80 out of pocket though through their deceit, effectively.

I should ask her to provide the screen grab to show that this is an Advance ticket ... maybe ...

It's good to send as is. If you don't succeed let us know and we will prod appropriate people.

 

[Class800]

The letter reads a bit abrasive, more tact may get a better response

 

[Bungaroosh]

The letter reads a bit abrasive, more tact may get a better response

Of course it's abrasive. But it's not abusive. In fact, it could be considered polite.
I had sent it before I saw your feedback here though.

 

[yorkie]

I might pilfer your middle sentence here if if they respond unfavourably to my initial request for a refund and I need to write a more formal complaint letter to them.

Thank you!



Update: I've just checked my email.

They have replied to me in the negative:
--------------------------------------------
Thank you for your email.

I am sorry that you did not get the tickets you were expecting.

I have looked on our system and the tickets you have booked are an anytime single to Sheffield from Manchester Piccadilly, the second leg is an advance ticket from Sheffield to London St Pancras. This would have been on our website when booking the tickets in the first instance also I can see on the screen shot of your booking confirmation that you have not clicked on the down arrow by the Sheffield to London part of the journey. If you press on this arrow it will open up the full booking for the second leg of your journey this will show you this is an advance ticket.

You have selected the cheapest way to travel by splitting the ticket journey. I am sorry we are unable to change these tickets. If you require any further assistance with your online booking, please contact our web team who will be able to assist you.

03456005165 Option 2 this will take you through to our online team.

Thank you for your time.

kind Regards

Suzanne Sharp

Unfortunately some people who work in customer services roles at some train companies provide information that is so badly wrong, if they posted it on this forum, they would be dealt with for providing inaccurate/misleading information. However standards at some train companies are so low that this is actually considered acceptable by their employers.

I can't see the situation changing any time soon; there is no willpower to do so. It frustrates me that some people think that buying from TOC websites is a panacea, when actually that is not the case at all.

Do let us know how they respond.

 

[Haywain]

What's worse is that they are selling you an Advance ticket but telling you it's valid "via any permitted route", which is clearly deceptive.

 

[MikeWh]

What's worse is that they are selling you an Advance ticket but telling you it's valid "via any permitted route", which is clearly deceptive.

Good spot.

 

[danm14]

That booking journey is absolutely indistinguishable from one where they are actually selling one through Anytime Day Single with a Railcard for a journey comprised of more than one leg.

 

[js517]

If this was a third party retailer's site, it would not get through accreditation.

 

[Paul Kelly]

If this was a third party retailer's site, it would not get through accreditation.

Do you think there are different standards applied if a site is TOC-branded? It seems hard to believe. I am wondering if it was a delegated accreditation by Silverrail.