Through GWR Bedwyns to be axed from May 2022

[nw1]

Looking at the May 22 timetable there only appear to be 2 WoE fasts that don’t run into Cornwall, the 11.04 and 13.04 so not sure where you got the fact alternate fasts terminate at Plymouth from.

I think it's probably from the previous 'stable' timetable (Dec 19), I do seem to remember that the classic 'alternating services terminate at Plymouth' pattern still held after the big Dec 19 change, at least off-peak.

I may be wrong though, and I suppose what I really meant is alternate services, whatever the destination, i.e. the odd-hours departures from Paddington.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think it's probably from the previous 'stable' timetable (Dec 19), I do seem to remember that the classic 'alternating services terminate at Plymouth' pattern still held after the big Dec 19 change, at least off-peak.

I may be wrong though, and I suppose what I really meant is alternate services, whatever the destination, i.e. the odd-hours departures from Paddington.

09.04 (summer only), 15.04 and 17.04 have always run through to Cornwall since the big Dec 19 change. Plymouth terminators are few and far between.

 

[irish_rail]

09.04 (summer only), 15.04 and 17.04 have always run through to Cornwall since the big Dec 19 change. Plymouth terminators are few and far between.

Is the 1315 ex Plymouth to London now coming in from Cornwall come May? Sure that one has long started at Plymouth?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Is the 1315 ex Plymouth to London now coming in from Cornwall come May? Sure that one has long started at Plymouth?

Yup, Starts from Newquay.

It’s worth noting the IET Newquays on SX are increased to 2 trains each way and run for the whole duration of the summer timetable this year instead of the previous just school holidays.

 

[irish_rail]

Yup, Starts from Newquay.

It’s worth noting the IET Newquays on SX are increased to 2 trains each way and run for the whole duration of the summer timetable this year instead of the previous just school holidays.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Gloster]

When I learnt the road from Reading to Bedwyn in the the late 70s, I was told by a driver that it had been intended to close Bedwyn at the same time as the other small stations on the Berks & Hants that did close. However, a minor derailment at Hungerford, damaged the crossover there, so trains had to continue on to Bedwyn to reverse. This was never later changed, so Bedwyn remained open.

I have no idea if this story is correct but it sounds plausible, and it stuck in my memory. Certainly a lot of the class 117 DMU sets used at the time had "Hungerford" as a destination on their roller blinds, but not "Bedwyn".

The accident was on 10 November 1971. A Westbury-Theale stone train derailed and destroyed the signalbox, amongst other things.

By 1967 the local service at Pewsey consisted of an Up DMU from Westbury and a fast in the morning, and a similar Down service in the evening.

You could also then give Frome a decent service to a range of destinations, rather than just running (very slowly) to Bristol & Weymouth.

The attitude for a long time was that Westbury acted as a railhead for Frome, Trowbridge, Warminster, etc. Frome has had through Londons at times since the 1990s(?)

It appears that Sir Felix Pole lived in Bedwyn, which may be why it had traditionally a greater railway importance than might otherwise be expected. A special stop or two for the General Manager might well become embedded in railway habits.

 

[Parallel]

Pre-COVID, Bedwyn did have about 130,000 entries and exits. That is fairly small for a terminus from London, but definitely not insignificant considering its location. Midgham and Aldermaston have historically been a lot quieter than Bedwyn and Hungerford, (and even slightly quieter than Kintbury), but those two stations being in the right place on the line has meant they've not suffered. 769s would probably ideal for such a service between Reading and Bedwyn rather than a diesel unit shuttling around all day.

 

[Irascible]

The attitude for a long time was that Westbury acted as a railhead for Frome, Trowbridge, Warminster, etc. Frome has had through Londons at times since the 1990s(?)

Can vaguely remember going via Frome once or twice in the 80s on trains to/from the SW, but I don't remember if they were timetabled or diversions.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Or Westbury? Perhaps involving a Devizes Parkway?

Would a Westbury to Newbury shuttle work with just one unit running back and forth all day, even if its once every two hours? It'd be better than what is running now.

 

[JonathanH]

Would a Westbury to Newbury shuttle work with just one unit running back and forth all day, even if its once every two hours? It'd be better than what is running now.

That would carry even fewer people than a Westbury to Reading shuttle. There just aren't lots of potential all day customers at Bedwyn or Pewsey looking for connections at Westbury.

What would be better about it? What are the traffic generators?

 

[Towers]

That would carry even fewer people than a Westbury to Reading shuttle. There just aren't lots of potential all day customers at Bedwyn or Pewsey looking for connections at Westbury.

What would be better about it? What are the traffic generators?

I think it has to come down to what you're actually trying to provide - is it direct intercity connections, decent connections into intercity connections elsewhere, or just a local service?

It's stretching things a bit, but you could attempt something along the lines of a Frome - WSB - B&H - RDG, that would give better connectivity for the folks along the route I suppose. The B&H as far as WSB seems an akward part of the world to serve, an hourly all stops might at least give a reasonable clockface timetable for the likes of Frome and Pewsey (accepting that Frome already has the Weymouths). I don't know what the answer is really; an 800 carrying fresh air to and from Bedwyn most of the day seems excessive, particularly in light of a stock shortage. Stopping Penzance trains at the likes of Pewsey also seems not to quite 'add up', but if not those then what? It's a conundrum!

 

[Parallel]

Can vaguely remember going via Frome once or twice in the 80s on trains to/from the SW, but I don't remember if they were timetabled or diversions.

I think there was an IET service that stopped at Frome around 2-3pm towards Devon, and believe there was also one that stopped on the way to London too but am not sure of time - that was fairly recent, but they don’t seem to be stopping at the moment.

If the line via Westbury is closed for engineering works, some services usually stop at Frome to connect with rail replacement buses.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think there was an IET service that stopped at Frome around 2-3pm towards Devon, and believe there was also one that stopped on the way to London too but am not sure of time - that was fairly recent, but they don’t seem to be stopping at the moment.

If the line via Westbury is closed for engineering works, some services usually stop at Frome to connect with rail replacement buses.

Current weekday Frome to Paddington direct services are at 06.12 and 09.01 with a single return at 18.08. The 09.01 also runs on Saturdays. These are unchanged in the May timetable.

 

[nw1]

That would carry even fewer people than a Westbury to Reading shuttle. There just aren't lots of potential all day customers at Bedwyn or Pewsey looking for connections at Westbury.

What would be better about it? What are the traffic generators?

At the end of the day, maybe it's best to just restore the hourly Paddington to Bedwyn, as that has run for many years. As I said up-thread, if they have the units to run it in the peak, that implies they ought to be able to find them off-peak.

If they can't do this immediately, fair enough, but that's what they should aspire to.

Current weekday Frome to Paddington direct services are at 06.12 and 09.01 with a single return at 18.08. The 09.01 also runs on Saturdays. These are unchanged in the May timetable.

I imagined the Exeter semi-fasts would call at Frome, but it appears not. Again, given the Exeter semi-fast's prime reason for operating is to link the intermediate towns to London, Reading and Exeter (and beyond), why not call them at Frome?

They could for instance try and tweak things so that the Plymouth fast overtakes the Exeter semi-fast while it's in the Westbury-Frome area and off the main line, not sure how difficult that would be to do.

09.04 (summer only), 15.04 and 17.04 have always run through to Cornwall since the big Dec 19 change. Plymouth terminators are few and far between.

Ah ok, thanks. I think I probably counted the 15:04 as a 'peak' service in my mind (as on Fridays, certainly, long-distance services start getting busy mid-afternoon), and if the 09:04 was a Plymouth terminator in the winter (Dec 2019 being winter of course) the picture in my head would have been for off-peak odd-hour services to terminate at Plymouth with Cornwall extensions at peak time only.

But in relation to the original discussion on Westbury stops, maybe just bringing back the Paddington-Bedwyn is what they should aspire to, as I said in my last post.

 

[Horizon22]

Splitting would presumably save units though - units that could be used to restore Bedwyn. I think it needs three units for the off-peak service, is this correct?

There does seem to be an averseness to operational complexity these days compared to the relatively recent past (80s and 90s); when you look at multiple-unit CWNs from the 80s there was all manner of splitting and joining going on, often at fairly random stations at random times during the day - all carefully designed to ensure that the right stock would form the right services in the peak while keeping peak ECS moves to a minimum. For example, a midday Portsmouth to Waterloo stopper would have coaches attached at Woking around lunchtime, which might then work an afternoon Waterloo-Guildford round trip, as this could cut down on ECS workings (with scarce paths available for such) in the height of the peak.

I do think GWR need to carefully examine all their diagrams to see if there is any way the Bedwyn could be restored. Indeed, if they can continue to work it in the peak, that might imply that it won't be that hard to keep it running off-peak, as the peak is when stock is most scarce and traditionally there has always been lots of spare stock to go around off-peak.

Not really because most services are 5 or 9 car on the North Cotswolds route. Certainly needs more than 3 for an hourly service in both directions. If you were moving up to 10 and spltitting at Oxford, then you need another unit from elsewhere - this would be unless you were getting rid of the Oxford terminators completely - which would be a rubbish deal for Oxford as the capacity might be the same, but not the frequency.

It would be good to keep going but as I said previously, if you're adding all the additional complexity or a different type of service to Westbury or Taunton, then that would also come unstuck because you might as well just run the Bedwyn service at that point.

I personally hope that it is short-term or failing that, some committment in the medium-term to electrify to Bedwyn. That or extending a Reading-Newbury turbo all the way through, if the diagrams and units can work (although having had a brief investigation it seems they don't effectively)

 

[JN114]

In the absence of electrifying west of Newbury, regrettably it makes sense to me.

If daytime through services are wholly off the table for lack of suitable rolling stock going forward - and we just have to take that at face value - then it’s going to be an enforced change somewhere to get to London.

Reading uses more units, and results in a slower journey time as at that point it’s more efficient to extend the Reading - Newbury stopper to Bedwyn than run a separate shuttle on top of the existing all stations 387.

Newbury perhaps isn’t as convenient, but can be made to work with a single unit, and minimises diesel running under the wires.

Hungerford is by far the biggest loser, but might just be busy enough to justify a call from the 1tp2h WOE stoppers, and thus retain its London through service - albeit at a reduced frequency. That may just be enough of a carrot to placate the vocal user groups in the area. It does already get such calls in the peaks so it’s not a huge leap to make it an all day / daytime affair.

 

[TheWalrus]

I think what would make most sense would be to increase the London-Exeter semi-fasts to hourly as far as Westbury/Frome, every two hours to Exeter. The Westbury terminators call at Kintbury and Bedwyn giving a two-hourly off peak service with the Exeters calling as they do now plus Hungerford, which is the biggest contributor of the 3 stations.

 

[nw1]

Not really because most services are 5 or 9 car on the North Cotswolds route. Certainly needs more than 3 for an hourly service in both directions. If you were moving up to 10 and spltitting at Oxford, then you need another unit from elsewhere - this would be unless you were getting rid of the Oxford terminators completely - which would be a rubbish deal for Oxford as the capacity might be the same, but not the frequency.

Yes, that's a fair point. I probably thought it would be easy to rearrange the diagrams to make Worcester services splitters.

It would be good to keep going but as I said previously, if you're adding all the additional complexity or a different type of service to Westbury or Taunton, then that would also come unstuck because you might as well just run the Bedwyn service at that point.

As I've said in other posts I think my conclusion now is just to restore the Paddington-Bedwyn, rather than run other services. At least that should be the aspiration, with the May 2022 arrangement being considered temporary.

I personally hope that it is short-term or failing that, some committment in the medium-term to electrify to Bedwyn. That or extending a Reading-Newbury turbo all the way through, if the diagrams and units can work (although having had a brief investigation it seems they don't effectively)

Indeed. Electrifying would seem logical, as it is really a 'Thames Valley commuter' service.

I think what would make most sense would be to increase the London-Exeter semi-fasts to hourly as far as Westbury/Frome, every two hours to Exeter. The Westbury terminators call at Kintbury and Bedwyn giving a two-hourly off peak service with the Exeters calling as they do now plus Hungerford, which is the biggest contributor of the 3 stations.

That's a good idea in principle (though I'm not sure whether two-hourly would be sufficient for Kintbury and Bedwyn after years of an hourly service), but would probably need as many units as the Paddington-Bedwyn so I guess you run into the same problem.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think what would make most sense would be to increase the London-Exeter semi-fasts to hourly as far as Westbury/Frome, every two hours to Exeter. The Westbury terminators call at Kintbury and Bedwyn giving a two-hourly off peak service with the Exeters calling as they do now plus Hungerford, which is the biggest contributor of the 3 stations.

The most sense in what way? Financially I doubt it!

 

[Bishopstone]

If it’s going to be a shuttle from Newbury, then I think there needs to be clear communication as to how long the Bedwyn connection will be held for, in the event of a slightly late running Down arrival.

If the answer is ‘we can’t hold connections because of performance targets/conflicting movements’ then, again, passengers are entitled to know whether they will be given taxis, or asked to wait up to 55 minutes. Because if your journey was Reading-Hungerford, say, then clearly it’s nonsensical to spend more time waiting than on the move.

 

[geoffk]

Bedwyn is an utterly arbitrary terminus in the middle of a field. In many ways it's actually amazing, being on a mainline, Beeching didn't shut it. (You can put heddington in that bracket, too, FWIW )

With the benefit of hindsight, should we not have kept Savernake LL to Marlborough? But there are rather a lot of those (Witney, Alnwick) and all water under the bridge now.

 

[nw1]

With the benefit of hindsight, should we not have kept Savernake LL to Marlborough? But there are rather a lot of those (Witney, Alnwick) and all water under the bridge now.

I've long wondered why they didn't keep Marlborough at least as a dead-end terminus of the service from Reading, and later Paddington. They could have just extended the Bedwyn there so would presumably have been relatively inexpensive.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If it’s going to be a shuttle from Newbury, then I think there needs to be clear communication as to how long the Bedwyn connection will be held for, in the event of a slightly late running Down arrival.

If the answer is ‘we can’t hold connections because of performance targets/conflicting movements’ then, again, passengers are entitled to know whether they will be given taxis, or asked to wait up to 55 minutes. Because if your journey was Reading-Hungerford, say, then clearly it’s nonsensical to spend more time waiting than on the move.

Great Western is one of the minority of TOCs with a comprehensive connectional policy so I’m sure it will be considered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Great Western is one of the minority of TOCs with a comprehensive connectional policy so I’m sure it will be considered.

Given that the sole purpose of this train is to connect towards London (literally nobody is going to be doing Bedwyn-Hungerford, they'll just drive) then clearly it should be treated as one train for connection purposes, i.e. always held.

 

[davetheguard]

Given that the sole purpose of this train is to connect towards London (literally nobody is going to be doing Bedwyn-Hungerford, they'll just drive) then clearly it should be treated as one train for connection purposes, i.e. always held.

"Sole purpose of this train is to connect towards London." I can assure you that people from Bedwyn do go shopping in Hungerford by train......

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Sole purpose of this train is to connect towards London." I can assure you that people from Bedwyn do go shopping in Hungerford by train......

"People from Bedwyn"? It has a population of about 1,400.

I'd imagine the odd few do, but London is by far the main point of it. I don't doubt there's an elderly local at Cheddington who goes to Tesco at Leighton by train, but the vast majority (in the sense of the vast majority of anything happens at Cheddington) are going to London.

 

[Goldfish62]

In another thread the assumption is that the spare IETs would replace West Country HSTs.

I have heard that from two independent GWR sources on the basis that DfT want the HSTs withdrawn ASAP.

 

[Bishopstone]

Most delays on the railway are of a few minutes, and frictional: late-running freight train ahead; poor regulation; minor mechanical issues and tardy dispatch at key stations etc.

If connections were held for ten minutes, then that should increase the success rate from 60% (for a strict, ‘no hold’ policy) to an acceptable 90% plus.

If I were considering investing £6k for a season ticket from Hungerford, requiring a connection at Newbury, I would expect to be told whether the hold policy was zero, or ten minutes (etc), because the answer would have a material impact on my quality of life, and I might decide to drive to Newbury instead.

I assume the connection at Newbury will be quite tight? If it’s 20 minutes then there should rarely be a problem, but then the overall journey time looks unattractive.

 

[JonathanH]

The premium for travel from Bedwyn instead of Newbury appears to be almost negligible so the railway doesn't get much less money if people travel from the larger station.

 

[davetheguard]

I'd imagine the odd few do, but London is by far the main point of it.

In my experience -admttadly several years out of date now- of working stopping trains to Bedwyn, there are more than the "odd few" actually, but at least you are now closer to reality that your earlier "literally nobody".

I'm not disagreeing with the main thrust of your argument that travel to Reading & London is a large proportion of journeys, I'm just saying that people do make local trips to Hungerford & Newbury too.