Through services between Kent (inc. Medway) and Gatwick Airport

[Starmill]

Following on from previous discussion:

A through service from Strood to Gatwick Airport would be great, the last thing people laden with luggage want is multiple changes and at the moment the only realistic option is to go via London.

Unfortunately, previous attempts to run such services have shown that demand for a slow trundle on this route is practically inexistant even on through trains. Far more straightforward to go via London, particularly when Maidstone is linked to London Bridge (albeit more expensive).

My own take on this is would be that there's a clear market opportunity for more through services to Gatwick Airport from the east, given it's such an enormous traffic generator. However, the practical reality of accommodating a second service which reverses at Redhill has regularly been pointed out.

I would furthermore suggest that a service from Medway will never be competitive on time, even if it it is just an extension of the Strood - Paddock Wood service. The M20 and M25 will always be quicker than running via Wateringbury and reversing at Redhill. However, for a through service from Canterbury and Ashford it could be much different.

A further and probably more realistic option would be a battery EMU service from Ashford International to London Victoria via Gatwick Airport, but that would only serve Ashford itself well, and not Staplehurst / Paddock Wood / Tonbridge - Gatwick Airport.

 

[PGAT]

Theoretically it wouldn't be TOO difficult. All that needs to happen is to amalgamate the Redhill-Tonbridge and the Tonbridge-Strood services.

 

[Starmill]

Theoretically it wouldn't be TOO difficult. All that needs to happen is to amalgamate the Redhill-Tonbridge and the Tonbridge-Strood services.

That would get you a Redhill - Strood service. Now that might be useful in its own right, but probably never realistic without an additional platform at Tonbridge. And crucially it doesn't offer a service to Gatwick Airport!

 

[Edsmith]

Reversing at Redhill is the only problem I can see, Strood to Gatwick Airport would take about 90 minutes and it couldn't be done quicker via London although it would cost more and require a change of train which most people would rather avoid if they're laden with luggage.

 

[WizCastro197]

That would get you a Redhill - Strood service. Now that might be useful in its own right, but probably never realistic without an additional platform at Tonbridge. And crucially it doesn't offer a service to Gatwick Airport!

If The Redhill-Tonbridge and Strood-Tonbridge services were axed, and wholly replaced with a Strood-Gatwick Airport via Redhill, then there wouldn't need to be an additional platform at TON as the platform that both services used will be free


Just reverse at Redhill platform 1a/b

 

[PGAT]

That would get you a Redhill - Strood service. Now that might be useful in its own right, but probably never realistic without an additional platform at Tonbridge. And crucially it doesn't offer a service to Gatwick Airport!

Could pull a GWR and have trains reverse at Redhill. Either way, changing at Redhill is a pill that’s much easier to swallow.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

That would get you a Redhill - Strood service. Now that might be useful in its own right, but probably never realistic without an additional platform at Tonbridge. And crucially it doesn't offer a service to Gatwick Airport!

Wouldn't be too difficult to get it to Gatwick. Slow Lines to Gatwick are not congested at all, and with the Thameslink services terminating at Three Bridges now, plenty of space at Gatwick on the Slow Lines.

Tonbridge is the biggest issue, and why a service like this wouldn't be possible. To be honest, Tonbridge needs to be remodelled.

 

[WizCastro197]

Wouldn't be too difficult to get it to Gatwick. Slow Lines to Gatwick are not congested at all, and with the Thameslink services terminating at Three Bridges now, plenty of space at Gatwick on the Slow Lines.

Tonbridge is the biggest issue, and why a service like this wouldn't be possible. To be honest, Tonbridge needs to be remodelled.

I agree partly, Plenty of room on the Redhill line, no room at Gatwick Airpot practically.

You are right only Thameslink use them Off Peak.

 

[PGAT]

Who's going to operate the service? Both Southern and Southeastern would be stepping into some uncommon ground.

I agree partly, Plenty of room on the Redhill line, no room at Gatwick Airpot practically.

You are right only Thameslink use them Off Peak.

From December they will be free all day

 

[WizCastro197]

Could pull a GWR and have trains reverse at Redhill. Either way, changing at Redhill is a pill that’s much easier to swallow.

Yes It honestly wouldn't be too difficult if the RDH-TON services were cut in return for this one.

They can reverse on either 1a/b or 0 as such many GWRs do.

 

[Starmill]

If The Redhill-Tonbridge and Strood-Tonbridge services were axed, and wholly replaced with a Strood-Gatwick Airport via Redhill, then there wouldn't need to be an additional platform at TON as the platform that both services used will be free


Just reverse at Redhill platform 1a/b

The slot at Redhill and between Tonbridge and Paddock Wood will never line up though. So you'll have to wait somewhere. It will probably be unable to run at all at peak times also because of the interaction with London - Tunbridge Wells / Hastings trains.

Trains from Strood also won't have platform availability at Tonbridge in the new timetable.

 

[WizCastro197]

Who's going to operate the service? Both Southern and Southeastern would be stepping into some uncommon ground.


From December they will be free all day

I am mildly confused?


I say Southeastern as they have in past operated RDH-TON and are more familiar with the entire route, however when Govia operated Southeastern, many southeastern drivers would drive for Southern., Not sure if that's the case anymore.

 

[PGAT]

Wouldn't there be line capacity for trains to run fast between Redhill and Tonbridge? Would save alot of time

 

[WizCastro197]

Wouldn't there be line capacity for trains to run fast between Redhill and Tonbridge? Would save alot of time

When Charing X/Cannon Street are closed, Southeastern run Hastings services via Redhill and they run fast between RDH-TON with the regular stoppers present as well.

Tonbridge is the biggest issue, and why a service like this wouldn't be possible. To be honest, Tonbridge needs to be remodelled.

In what way? Any way would be too expensive for DfT!

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I agree partly, Plenty of room on the Redhill line, no room at Gatwick Airpot practically.

You are right only Thameslink use them Off Peak.

What are you talking about, there is plenty of space at Gatwick Airport.

 

[Starmill]

Wouldn't there be line capacity for trains to run fast between Redhill and Tonbridge? Would save alot of time

There would but there'd still be no platform capacity at Tonbridge.

Presumably you'd want to stop at Edenbridge at least.

Also would you still run fast at peak times or stop in lieu of the additional stopping service?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

When Charing X/Cannon Street are closed, Southeastern run Hastings services via Redhill and they run fast between RDH-TON with the regular stoppers present as well.


In what way? Any way would be too expensive for DfT!

I'm not saying it will, but its an absolute nightmare to plan and timetable Tonbridge station.

 

[WizCastro197]

What are you talking about, there is plenty of space at Gatwick Airport.

In a year or so there will be when 5&6 finally reopen but now it is too congested for major service additions T

I'm not saying it will, but its an absolute nightmare to plan and timetable Tonbridge station.

Thanks. It isn't my area of knowledge so I don't know Tonbridge all that well!

 

[PGAT]

In a year or so there will be when 5&6 finally reopen but now it is too congested for major service additions T

Plenty of capacity at Gatwick, right now only 3tph to share across 2 platforms. There are some through services but they have alot of choice of which platform to go to.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

In a year or so there will be when 5&6 finally reopen but now it is too congested for major service additions T

Thanks. It isn't my area of knowledge so I don't know Tonbridge all that well!

No its not. There is plenty of space in gatwick Platforms 1,2 and 3. Plus 5 and 6 reopen in January.

 

[WizCastro197]

Would such service run fast between Redhill and Gatwick or stop?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Would such service run fast between Redhill and Gatwick or stop?

Would almost certainly run fast.

 

[PGAT]

Would almost certainly run fast.

Not enough demand and already an okay service.

 

[cle]

I remember flavours of this in the past. Services from Three Bridges and even Horsham at one point. It's interesting - as the whole route from Redhill to Tonbridge (and to Ashford too) is straight, fast and under-capacity. Redhill reversals are the tricky part, and the symmetrical GWR route has those too - and aspirations for 3tph.

It does seem like it should be ripe for some type of regional service - like the North Downs fasts are, or how EWR should be. It's a route which could be utilized better... but it doesn't have any heavy-hitting places at the Kent end. Tonbridge and Maidstone are not Guildford or Reading.

Keeping a Strood service to Tonbridge/Paddock Wood separate, I wonder if a reversal there to provide an hourly Gillingham/Rainham and connect up the Medway Towns proper with Maidstone/Tonbridge/Redhill/Gatwick could be more interesting. With another tph to Ashford possibly - or could that be the Redhill-Tonbridge shuttle extended, to give some more purpose.

 

[Starmill]

and aspirations for 3tph

3tph was scheduled, and some even ran for a short while. It has now been abandoned and the schedule changed to revert it.

I would suggest that there would be a need for any service towards Kent to run half an hour apart from the GWR service also in order to accommodate it in the future BML schedule.

It's interesting - as the whole route from Redhill to Tonbridge (and to Ashford too) is straight, fast and under-capacity.

It might be under-capacity if Hastings line services weren't crossing on the flat. However, they are.

 

[CarrotPie]

Keeping a Strood service to Tonbridge/Paddock Wood separate, I wonder if a reversal there to provide an hourly Gillingham/Rainham and connect up the Medway Towns proper with Maidstone/Tonbridge/Redhill/Gatwick could be more interesting.

That wouldn't work at Strood due to the track layout, except if you demolish all meaningful connections with Thameslink and HS1 services at Strood.

or could that be the Redhill-Tonbridge shuttle extended, to give some more purpose.

I do think that Redhill-Tonbridge could be extended to Maidstone West, calling just at Yalding and Wateringbury perhaps?

Some months ago I did come up with a (highly speculative) idea for a semi-fast SOO-CHX service, calling at Waterloo East, London Bridge, Orpington, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, Paddock Wood, Yalding, Wateringbury, Maidstone West, Maidstone Barracks, Snodland and Halling.

Main issue would be timetabling on the SEML around Tonbridge and that it would have to be 4 cars only to avoid plentiful use of SDO.

 

[Minstral25]

That would get you a Redhill - Strood service. Now that might be useful in its own right, but probably never realistic without an additional platform at Tonbridge. And crucially it doesn't offer a service to Gatwick Airport!

Don't think Tonbridge is a problem as services Redhill to Strood in both directions would use P1 and be half hourly apart. Slight issue at morning peak is build up of London Bound services that P1 is used for some currently to avoid potential conflicts if one is a few minutes late but there is space for all London services to use P2

The real issue is Paddock Wood as both directions would need to use P2 plus all Ashford Bound Services - it is not possible to get to P1 from the Maidstone branch.

Reversing at Redhill is the only problem I can see, Strood to Gatwick Airport would take about 90 minutes and it couldn't be done quicker via London although it would cost more and require a change of train which most people would rather avoid if they're laden with luggage.

Ex-Strood would arrive and depart 0 or 1a/b mixed in with Reading/Gatwick's and odd terminator from Reading. Platform 0 is only really needing to be used for London bound services in morning peak that have to join portions to lower risk of join of two sets causing delay to other services.

Wouldn't be too difficult to get it to Gatwick. Slow Lines to Gatwick are not congested at all, and with the Thameslink services terminating at Three Bridges now, plenty of space at Gatwick on the Slow Lines.

Tonbridge is the biggest issue, and why a service like this wouldn't be possible. To be honest, Tonbridge needs to be remodelled.

Yes P2 at Gatwick could become a turning point for these and GWR services now that the Bedford's are going to Three Bridges

I remember flavours of this in the past. Services from Three Bridges and even Horsham at one point. It's interesting - as the whole route from Redhill to Tonbridge (and to Ashford too) is straight, fast and under-capacity. Redhill reversals are the tricky part, and the symmetrical GWR route has those too - and aspirations for 3tph.

It does seem like it should be ripe for some type of regional service - like the North Downs fasts are, or how EWR should be. It's a route which could be utilized better... but it doesn't have any heavy-hitting places at the Kent end. Tonbridge and Maidstone are not Guildford or Reading.

Keeping a Strood service to Tonbridge/Paddock Wood separate, I wonder if a reversal there to provide an hourly Gillingham/Rainham and connect up the Medway Towns proper with Maidstone/Tonbridge/Redhill/Gatwick could be more interesting. With another tph to Ashford possibly - or could that be the Redhill-Tonbridge shuttle extended, to give some more purpose.

Assuming the service would run on a repeating half hourly pattern, you could skip stop the Redhill to Tonbridge section to speed whilst being regular with everything calling at Edenbridge, and 1ph to Nutfield and Godstone with the other half hour Leigh and Penshurst.

 

[Starmill]

Don't think Tonbridge is a problem as services Redhill to Strood in both directions would use P1 and be half hourly apart. Slight issue at morning peak is build up of London Bound services that P1 is used for some currently to avoid potential conflicts if one is a few minutes late but there is space for all London services to use P2

Both AM and PM peaks at Tonbridge in the December timetable have conflicts east of the station and platform occupancy which means that this new service cannot run.

Furthermore as I've already pointed out, note that there's no existing slot from Tonbridge to Paddock Wood for the Strood service except 0506, 0544, 0831, 0859, 1600, 1700, 2237 and various inbound services. The others have all been removed for a reason and won't simply be put back.

 

[CarrotPie]

Both AM and PM peaks at Tonbridge in the December timetable have conflicts east of the station and platform occupancy which means that this new service cannot run.

Furthermore as I've already pointed out, note that there's no existing slot from Tonbridge to Paddock Wood for the Strood service except 0506, 0544, 0831, 0859, 1600, 1700, 2237 and various inbound services. The others have all been removed for a reason and won't simply be put back.

Ignoring the peaks for now, looking at RTT for January, there seems to be a slot:

CHX-RAM leaves P2 at xx18
Strood service arrives at xx20, leaves at xx21 and runs to Tonbridge
Arrives at xx27, leaves at xx28 (current SN service leaves at xx27), runs to Redhill.

Meanwhile:
Redhill service arrives at xx17 (current SN sevice arrives at xx39), leaves at xx18, runs to Paddock Wood
Arrives at xx24, leaves at xx25 (service from Strood leaves at xx21), runs to Strood

Is there some other reason why this wouldn't work?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Ignoring the peaks for now, looking at RTT for January, there seems to be a slot:

CHX-RAM leaves P2 at xx18
Strood service arrives at xx20, leaves at xx21 and runs to Tonbridge
Arrives at xx27, leaves at xx28 (current SN service leaves at xx27), runs to Redhill.

Meanwhile:
Redhill service arrives at xx17 (current SN sevice arrives at xx39), leaves at xx18, runs to Paddock Wood
Arrives at xx24, leaves at xx25 (service from Strood leaves at xx21), runs to Strood

Is there some other reason why this wouldn't work?

Sadly won't work as there is freight in the path you want the Redhill to Tonbridge trains to arrive at.

To be honest though, freight can be moved so its certainly doable from a train planning perspective.

There are other issues with performance and other things at Tonbridge that I can't say that would stop this from happening from a planning perspective.