Thrown off the train for not having means to pay for a ticket

[hairyhandedfool]

There is no such thing as an adult fare.

When will the booking engines be updated to reflect that?

Clip has a fair point, there is no specific 'Adult Fare', there is, however, a fare that permits an adult to travel.

A reduced rate ticket is offered for children. Therefore the unreduced fare must be for an adult. Or do you define those who are not children as something other than adults?

A person arrives at a station, goes to the ticket office and asks for "a child ticket" to another station. The clerk is not convinced the person is under 16 and asks for some ID (child photocard, passport, birth certificate, etc). The person says they have none and so the clerk only offers the non-discounted fare.

Is that person an "Adult"?

Presumably there is a hidden meaning in this ?

If I use NRE or a TOC site to check fares I need to state whether I want an adult or child price....

Do you? Or do you need to let the planner know how many adults are travelling and how many children are travelling?

Every ticket I have purchased recently has 'one adult' printed on it.

Perhaps you would prefer "passengers: one child: nil" (which could get confusing if it was "passengers: nil child: one" or "passengers: one child: one") or even just "passengers: one" and leave the child bit to the discount status (personally I think "CHFAM", for example, is not so easily recognisable, on it's own, as a child fare to joe public).

 

[sheff1]

Perhaps you would prefer "passengers: one child: nil"

No, I am quite happy with one adult on the ticket, and the fare being an adult fare. I was, and still am, curious why Clip said there was no such thing as an adult fare.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I did try to point that out in the post, maybe I didn't do a very good job. A "child fare" (or "half fare" as it is sometimes known) is a fare that has a "child discount" applied. If the fare does not have a discount applied it is simply a "fare" and has no direct bearing on whether the user is an adult or not, hence, there is no such thing as "an adult fare".

It is fair to point out that the NFM (National Fares Manual) is the NFM and not the NAFM because it lists "Fares" and not "Adult Fares".

 

[Haywain]

A person arrives at a station, goes to the ticket office and asks for "a child ticket" to another station. The clerk is not convinced the person is under 16 and asks for some ID (child photocard, passport, birth certificate, etc). The person says they have none and so the clerk only offers the non-discounted fare.

Is that person an "Adult"?

The person travelling is not necessarily an adult and has every right to PURCHASE a child fare. Whilst it is reasonable to attempt to ascertain that the purchaser is aware of the age restrictions pertaining to that fare, unless he has strong evidence to the contrary the clerk has no grounds to refuse to sell the ticket. No offence is committed until the ticket is used by a person not entitled to use it.

 

[thenorthern]

I once got on at Mansfield when the booking office was closed and I was 15 and I got refused a child ticked on the grounds I had a Visa bank card which according to the conductor meant I must have been over the age of 18.

The only ID I had with my age on it was an ID card from my school explaining something which once the conductor saw he left me alone and gave me a child ticket.

 

[Clip]

The person travelling is not necessarily an adult and has every right to PURCHASE a child fare. Whilst it is reasonable to attempt to ascertain that the purchaser is aware of the age restrictions pertaining to that fare, unless he has strong evidence to the contrary the clerk has no grounds to refuse to sell the ticket. No offence is committed until the ticket is used by a person not entitled to use it.

A child fare is indeed a discount on the 'Standard' fare for the journey.

The same as all railcard and other discounted tickets are the same, they just go by other discounted names. Like 16-25 railcard, Disabled railcard,Senior railcard and so on and so forth. You are getting a discount on the standard fare, but under a seperate name.

The reason booking engines dont say as such so that there is no confusion when booking a ticket - its hard enough already wouldnt you say?

 

[jon0844]

If they want to shake things up, set the standard fare as the penalty fare (the default fare) and work out the discounts on that! As a PF can be double the standard fare, TOCs could then state that adults get a 50% discount and children/railcard users even more!!!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The person travelling is not necessarily an adult and has every right to PURCHASE a child fare. Whilst it is reasonable to attempt to ascertain that the purchaser is aware of the age restrictions pertaining to that fare, unless he has strong evidence to the contrary the clerk has no grounds to refuse to sell the ticket. No offence is committed until the ticket is used by a person not entitled to use it.

The only people 'entitled' to a child discount are persons under the age of 16 (excepting for when a Family & Friends Railcard is used). It is up to the person purchasing the ticket to demonstrate that the person, for whom the fare is intended, is entitled to the discount. If the clerk does not believe the person travelling is under 16 years of age and the purchaser cannot prove that the person travelling is, the clerk would not be refusing a sale, they would be refusing a discount on the sale.

Whether you deem the clerks opinion combined with no proof to the contrary to be 'strong evidence' is open to debate, but if you believe that someone who looks like they are 55 years old, and cannot prove their age, should be refused a child discount for their own travel on the basis that 'they look too old and cannot prove their age', then you must agree that a 15 year old, who cannot prove their age, must also be denied that same discount for the very same reason.

 

[yorkie]

Its more often that people aged 16+ are offered child fares than people actually aged 15 or less are refused them, based on what I have witnessed.

I think ticket clerks and guards must see so many 16-24ish year olds pretending to be 15 that they just get used to it.

Football fans aged about 16-20 have been known to get in to matches as children, and sometimes paying child fares on trains, yet drinking in pubs! (at one football ground I was invited to use an under 14 turnstile at 17).

An adult ticket is clearly an adult ticket but obviously does not necessarily mean the holder of such a ticket is legally an adult!

 

[Flamingo]

The art of detecting abuse of child tickets is one that every Guard learns, and I could bore you all night with tales of getting the CH to ask for ID when the passenger comes up to buy booze, not hidden tattoo's, drivers licences being dropped, etc.

But sometimes one has to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[IanXC]

I wouldn't be surprised, given the native intellect of these people, but I probably should be. If I had large amounts of money and substances about my person, I'd not be kicking off about a £3.20 fare, I'd be keeping PC Plod as far away from me as humanly possible.

Indeed, its the same collection of people who you see pulled over for motoring offences on Police documentaries. Once they're breaking that many laws another probably doesn't seem like an issue, but forget how other things draw attention to them!

 

[OLJR]

If they want to shake things up, set the standard fare as the penalty fare (the default fare) and work out the discounts on that! As a PF can be double the standard fare, TOCs could then state that adults get a 50% discount and children/railcard users even more!!!

That is an interesting idea - I really like it. "Buy at the ticket office to get a 50% discount!"

 

[jon0844]

The trainline will probably start doing it now!

 

[sheff1]

It is up to the person purchasing the ticket to demonstrate that the person, for whom the fare is intended, is entitled to the discount. If the clerk does not believe the person travelling is under 16 years of age and the purchaser cannot prove that the person travelling is, the clerk would not be refusing a sale, they would be refusing a discount on the sale.

I always find this line of reasoning unconvincing when one can buy a discounted ticket online without demonstrating or proving anything. This is why, when going down to collect his nephew, my son always books the child ticket online.

 

[CC 72100]

I always find this line of reasoning unconvincing when one can buy a discounted ticket online without demonstrating or proving anything. This is why, when going down to collect his nephew, my son always books the child ticket online.

And it's exactly the same for railcards too - can select whatever you like online in my experience, but come to the ticket office without it (as I did once) it's no sale. (Even if you tell them that you do have a railcard and are fully aware of how the ticket is invalid without it to prove that you're not just trying it on!)

 

[yorkie]

I wonder if the rail industry wants to encourage us to purchase from machines and online as much as possible, so that they can close more ticket offices and reduce staffing levels?

It also increases revenue, as people can very easily be overcharged by ticket machines, and not all ticket booking sites sell discounts that should be applied (e.g. Evening Returns, Northern Duo, GroupSave etc, etc...)

 

[bunnahabhain]

Its more often that people aged 16+ are offered child fares than people actually aged 15 or less are refused them, based on what I have witnessed.

Its incredibly difficult to judge the age of young people, I regularly challenge them for ID to be laughed at and told "I'm a child, why would I need ID". When people are only travelling one stop it can also be pretty difficult where they have no intention whatsoever of paying an adult fare but will pay a child fare and even though you know they aren't a child you have to relent and at least get something out of them.

 

[fowler9]

Its incredibly difficult to judge the age of young people, I regularly challenge them for ID to be laughed at and told "I'm a child, why would I need ID". When people are only travelling one stop it can also be pretty difficult where they have no intention whatsoever of paying an adult fare but will pay a child fare and even though you know they aren't a child you have to relent and at least get something out of them.

Force them to give ID and tell them that in a few years time they will be delighted to be asked. Alternatively tell them they look about 10, I can't think of anything more insulting for a lad in his early teens.

 

[Tibbs]

Force them to give ID and tell them that in a few years time they will be delighted to be asked. Alternatively tell them they look about 10, I can't think of anything more insulting for a lad in his early teens.

How would you force them?

 

[fowler9]

How would you force them?

Only joking mate.

 

[Tibbs]

Only joking mate.

Ok then!

(Smilies are your friend )

 

[fowler9]

Ok then!

(Smilies are your friend )

Ha ha, sorry mate, good point.