Ticket bought on app after boarding the train

[Nida]

Hi,
I was travelling from Birmingham New Street to London Euston and usually lot that people buy tickets on train so I had no idea of it being a problem.
I anyways buy ticket always on app, I bought this time as well, the success message appear but somehow the ticket did not- appear and I boarded the train.
I was travelling from another station to Birmingham New street so did not need to cross the barriers.
When I saw the Officer approaching I tried seeing ticket in app and email but it was not there. I immediately purchased off peak ticket while officer was dealing with others.
Upon demand, I showed the ticket right away but she still issued me penalty fair that has written on it " purchased after departure"

Question:
- Is it worth appealing?
- Does appealing in any way lead to further investigation on past?
- If I pay the Penalty , is there anything I need to worry about for getting in post or anywhere else for any investigation?
- There is no mention of my details on PF notice, is that something ok? How the record gets linked which shows previous offences? (This is first time it happened to me but asking for knowledge)

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,
I was travelling from Birmingham New Street to London Euston and usually lot that people buy tickets on train so I had no idea of it being a problem.
I anyways buy ticket always on app, I bought this time as well, the success message appear but somehow the ticket did not- appear and I boarded the train.
I was travelling from another station to Birmingham New street so did not need to cross the barriers.
When I saw the Officer approaching I tried seeing ticket in app and email but it was not there. I immediately purchased off peak ticket while officer was dealing with others.
Upon demand, I showed the ticket right away but she still issued me penalty fair that has written on it " purchased after departure"

Question:
- Is it worth appealing?
- Does appealing in any way lead to further investigation on past?
- If I pay the Penalty , is there anything I need to worry about for getting in post or anywhere else for any investigation?
- There is no mention of my details on PF notice, is that something ok? How the record gets linked which shows previous offences? (This is first time it happened to me but asking for knowledge)

I would pay the penalty fare to ensure of the 50% prompt payment discount. I can see no grounds for an appeal. Paying it should close the matter.

What you have done is similar to what is called 'pay when challenged' ie you only pay up when you see a ticket collector.

Your message suggests you have a possible history of other travel without a fully valid ticket. You need to be aware that now they have your details you are on their radar. If stopped again they are less likely to issue a penalty fare next time, and more likely to report you for investigation - which sounds like something you want to avoid.

When you buy a ticket on the trains the staff ticket checkers can see that the ticket was bought after the trains departure which is an offence, the ticket scanners are set to alert the staff in such cases I believe. All those people are risking getting Penalty fares or investigated if their tickets are checked, I would suggest.

 

[Watershed]

Welcome to the forum.

I would suggest having a read through this thread for some background reading. It concerns a very similar set of circumstances, and details the arguments that could be used to appeal the Penalty Fare.

It's worth noting that from the sound of things, you did have a valid ticket - buying it after you board doesn't make the ticket fundamentally invalid, it just doesn't negate the Byelaw offence you committed by boarding without a ticket (which should be handled differently - not through a PF). Bear in mind that there are three stages of appeal, and first and second stage appeals are often refused without being looked into properly - so it is worthwhile perservering with a third appeal, if necessary.

Having seen the pictures of your Penalty Fare before you deleted it, it looks like it was issued for an incorrect amount of £19. The correct fare from Birmingham to London, for that particular train company at that time of dayu, would have been £20. It may seem a trite point, but it is a ground of appeal worth considering as the value of the Penalty Fare must be correct. Similarly, see this thread regarding an appeal on the basis that the PF was issued all the way to Euston. You should have been given the option of only receiving the Penalty Fare until the next station (presumably this would have been some distance before Euston?) and then buying a separate regular-price ticket for the remainder of the journey (in reality, your existing ticket was already valid so this would not have been necessary).

That being said, if you have a history of buying tickets after boarding the train, you need to be very careful. It is an offence to do this, as mentioned above, and many train companies are beginning to investigate purchase and ticket scan data when an irregularity comes to their attention. This practice is questionable in a lot of ways, but we have seen train companies send people threatening emails/letters after an initial Penalty Fare asking for an explanation of why they have apparently been buying tickets after boarding. Just something to keep in mind when you decide how to proceed.

 

[Nida]

Welcome to the forum.

I would suggest having a read through this thread for some background reading. It concerns a very similar set of circumstances, and details the arguments that could be used to appeal the Penalty Fare.

It's worth noting that from the sound of things, you did have a valid ticket - buying it after you board doesn't make the ticket fundamentally invalid, it just doesn't negate the Byelaw offence you committed by boarding without a ticket (which should be handled differently - not through a PF). Bear in mind that there are three stages of appeal, and first and second stage appeals are often refused without being looked into properly - so it is worthwhile perservering with a third appeal, if necessary.

Having seen the pictures of your Penalty Fare before you deleted it, it looks like it was issued for an incorrect amount of £19. The correct fare from Birmingham to London, for that particular train company at that time of dayu, would have been £20. It may seem a trite point, but it is a ground of appeal worth considering as the value of the Penalty Fare must be correct. Similarly, see this thread regarding an appeal on the basis that the PF was issued all the way to Euston. You should have been given the option of only receiving the Penalty Fare until the next station (presumably this would have been some distance before Euston?) and then buying a separate regular-price ticket for the remainder of the journey (in reality, your existing ticket was already valid so this would not have been necessary).

That being said, if you have a history of buying tickets after boarding the train, you need to be very careful. It is an offence to do this, as mentioned above, and many train companies are beginning to investigate purchase and ticket scan data when an irregularity comes to their attention. This practice is questionable in a lot of ways, but we have seen train companies send people threatening emails/letters after an initial Penalty Fare asking for an explanation of why they have apparently been buying tickets after boarding. Just something to keep in mind when you decide how to proceed.

Thanks alot.
This is exactly what I was wondering and the information about ticket price, stations and everything is as you said.
I thought it quite normal to buy ticket after boarding the train because of frequent changes in plan and also train staff issuing it on train made it seem like even more normal.

Talking about history, often I had to go for refunds including those where I had to pay admin fees because of change in travel plans; which is also something I wanted to avoid and for that many times I bought ticket on train as well just to be sure. But this time was an actual technical issue which is why ticket was bought after boarding the train

Now the whole situation seems a bit dodgy keeping in view their contradictory actions. Tbh, I might even avoid trains altogether because of not having time to understand their dodgy practices as I also saw people also complaining on forum for having ticket but not scanned on station.

Can you please tell will it be more beneficial for me to just pay the PF and close matter, or appeal keeping in view the points you mentioned?

All I want is the least trouble and clean record; and the situations that I want to avoid are paying the PF and train operator starting further investigation on past to gain more money or threaten me further v/s me making the appeal and they starting further investigation on past just to prove me wrong or again to threaten me further.
Much thanks

 

[Watershed]

Thanks alot.
This is exactly what I was wondering and the information about ticket price, stations and everything is as you said.
I thought it quite normal to buy ticket after boarding the train because of frequent changes in plan and also train staff issuing it on train made it seem like even more normal.
So many times I also had to go for refunds including those where I had to pay admin fees because of change in travel plans which is also something I wanted to avoid.
Now the whole situation seems a bit dodgy keeping in view their contradictory actions.

Can you please tell what you mean by 3 stages? Also will it be more beneficial for me to just pay the PF and close matter or appeal keeping in view the points you mentioned to avoid any upcoming issue with train operator
Much thanks

Unfortunately, whilst buying onboard is tolerated in a lot of cases, you are breaking the law by doing so (unless there was no way to buy a ticket before boarding, i.e. all ticket machines out of order and no ticket office open).

There are several retailers that will offer fee-free refunds on unused tickets - though you need to be very careful not to request a refund on a ticket you have used (this could be considered fraudulent). Otherwise, there is no real downside in simply buying the ticket at the station from the machine or the ticket office, if your app isn't working. It only takes 1 or 2 minutes.

You're right that the train companies don't help themselves by having conductors who sell tickets (and accept ones bought after boarding) without mentioning anything. To then suddenly send inspectors and penalise people for doing something they thought was OK is not very consistent or customer-friendly. But at the end of the day, the law allows them to do this, and the rail industry cares much more about revenue protection than its reputation.

You can appeal the Penalty Fare 3 times. Each appeal is handled by a separate person (or panel, for the third appeal). Whilst you have submitted an appeal and are waiting to hear the result, the "clock" on the 21 day period for getting the £50 discount is stopped.

Given your comments, I think you may want to pay the Penalty Fare to avoid your details being looked into any further. I would also suggest creating a new account, with a different app, email and payment card, so that any future encounters you have are not linked to any offences you may have committed in the past. Tickets bought at the station are also somewhat more anonymous, as it would take a lot more work to piece together purchases made by the same person.

 

[Nida]

Unfortunately, whilst buying onboard is tolerated in a lot of cases, you are breaking the law by doing so (unless there was no way to buy a ticket before boarding, i.e. all ticket machines out of order and no ticket office open).

There are several retailers that will offer fee-free refunds on unused tickets - though you need to be very careful not to request a refund on a ticket you have used (this could be considered fraudulent). Otherwise, there is no real downside in simply buying the ticket at the station from the machine or the ticket office, if your app isn't working. It only takes 1 or 2 minutes.

You're right that the train companies don't help themselves by having conductors who sell tickets (and accept ones bought after boarding) without mentioning anything. To then suddenly send inspectors and penalise people for doing something they thought was OK is not very consistent or customer-friendly. But at the end of the day, the law allows them to do this, and the rail industry cares much more about revenue protection than its reputation.

You can appeal the Penalty Fare 3 times. Each appeal is handled by a separate person (or panel, for the third appeal). Whilst you have submitted an appeal and are waiting to hear the result, the "clock" on the 21 day period for getting the £50 discount is stopped.

Given your comments, I think you may want to pay the Penalty Fare to avoid your details being looked into any further. I would also suggest creating a new account, with a different app, email and payment card, so that any future encounters you have are not linked to any offences you may have committed in the past. Tickets bought at the station are also somewhat more anonymous, as it would take a lot more work to piece together purchases made by the same person.

thanks.
Sorry I edited the comment to explain my self better.
Yes you are right and All I want is the least trouble and clean record; and the situations that I want to avoid are paying the PF and train operator starting further investigation on past to gain more money or threaten me further v/s me making the appeal and they starting further investigation on past just to prove me wrong or again to threaten me further.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

All I want is the least trouble and clean record; and the situations that I want to avoid are paying the PF and train operator starting further investigation on past to gain more money or threaten me further

Going forward, the best way to get this is to make sure you buy the right ticket before you get on the train. While some of the comments above suggest problems with the penalty fare you were issued, my understanding is that the railway disagrees and will argue that the penalty fare is entirely valid.

To draw a simple analogy, if you want to avoid falling off a cliff, the easiest solution is to stay well back from the edge. Here, my advice is to stick well within the rules and avoid the cliff edge by not going near to the edge of what is permitted.

 

[Nida]

Going forward, the best way to get this is to make sure you buy the right ticket before you get on the train. While some of the comments above suggest problems with the penalty fare you were issued, my understanding is that the railway disagrees and will argue that the penalty fare is entirely valid.

To draw a simple analogy, if you want to avoid falling off a cliff, the easiest solution is to stay well back from the edge. Here, my advice is to stick well within the rules and avoid the cliff edge by not going near to the edge of what is permitted.

Thanks , I do understand the actions on way forward
But I am more concerned on the right course of action on current issue, That if appealing in this case will be a right move or not.
If doing it will make them more revengeful or not doing it will make them more exploitative.

Personal preference: I want to appeal it but not at the cost of any more severe repercussions

 

[BazingaTribe]

Thanks , I do understand the actions on way forward
But I am more concerned on the right course of action on current issue, That if challenging them in this case will be a right move or not.
If doing it will make them more revengeful or not doing it will make them more exploitative.

One case is unlikely to make a difference but there's an investigation ongoing into train company policies. It's easier to get the attention of the media if you've been prosecuted for a fare underpaid by 5p or something ridiculous like that, or you fall into a vulnerable demographic (by the metrics of the Daily Mail or Express or whatever, who tend to be biased in favour of e.g. seniors). Do however try and submit your situation to the inquiry by any means available -- that's the best bet for getting the situation sorted out in the long run.

Likewise they shouldn't penalise you for challenging their case on this occasion but you do need to take care to buy the ticket at the right time because another slip up might make a difference now you've crossed their radar. The folks here are good at giving people advice to get off the hook but I agree with Fawkes Cat inasmuch it's really best practice to check and double check you have a ticket before you get on the train on future. Ungated stations are a big problem for this sort of thing but the reality is they will always be with us, so all you can do is learn from the mistake and move on.

 

[Nida]

we have seen train companies send people threatening emails/letters after an initial Penalty Fare asking for an explanation of why they have apparently been buying tickets after boarding. Just something to keep in mind when you decide how to proceed.

Should I expect them to threaten me if I pay penalty fare or If I challenge with appeal?

 

[ikcdab]

Thanks , I do understand the actions on way forward
But I am more concerned on the right course of action on current issue, That if appealing in this case will be a right move or not.
If doing it will make them more revengeful or not doing it will make them more exploitative.

Personal preference: I want to appeal it but not at the cost of any more severe repercussions

An appeal can only succeed if either their was a failure of process or there is new information you can bring to their attention. An appeal on the grounds of just asking for them to reconsider the same facts won't work. Unless you can somehow prove that you did indeed buy the ticket at the first attempt, then I see no grounds for appeal. Best off just paying the penalty.

 

[Titfield]

Should I expect them to threaten me if I pay penalty fare or If I challenge with appeal?

If a passenger has been issued with a penalty fare then the train operating company will in all probability look at this persons booking history and see if there are other events that require investigation and an explanation from the passenger.

Paying the penalty fare or appealing the issue of the penalty fare does not trigger the investigation of the persons history rather it is the event that gave rise to the issuing of the penalty fare in the first place which is the trigger.

There is a very common misperception by passengers that they can buy on the train. Only in limited circumstances is this allowed. The golden rule is buy a ticket before you board the train or at barriered stations buy before you go through the barrier.

 

[Nida]

If a passenger has been issued with a penalty fare then the train operating company will in all probability look at this persons booking history and see if there are other events that require investigation and an explanation from the passenger.

Paying the penalty fare or appealing the issue of the penalty fare does not trigger the investigation of the persons history rather it is the event that gave rise to the issuing of the penalty fare in the first place which is the trigger.

There is a very common misperception by passengers that they can buy on the train. Only in limited circumstances is this allowed. The golden rule is buy a ticket before you board the train or at barriered stations buy before you go through the barrier.

Thank you and does every train company have their separate investigation records or they also look across each other's journeys.
Asking because I am sure I wont have many cases with this particular company but might have a few with other companies for exact reason you mentioned that its a common misperception for it being ok to buy on train

 

[Titfield]

Thank you and does every train company have their separate investigation records or they also look across each other's journeys.
Asking because I am sure I wont have many cases with this particular company but might have a few with other companies for exact reason you mentioned that its a common misperception for it being ok to buy on train

They can search across each others records and those of third partys e.g. Trainline.

Where it becomes "complicated" is whether or not you have paid the fare due. If you have paid the fare due then there is no financial loss to the train operating company. They can take action for boarding a ticket without a valid ticket (but you bought one onboard) but this is quite draconian because (a) they didnt challenge you at the time (b) it is obvious by the fact you had paid that there wasnt a question of paid when challenged (c) there are evidential issues (edit) as to whether any offence has been committed.

I would put this issue out of your mind and just focus on the matter in hand. As others have advised, I would pay the penalty fare now.

 

[Nida]

Hi All,
Need help on review of the appeal I am making. Its the first stage so I am not sure whether I should mention all or keep some details for 2nd and 3rd stage as I understand from many discussions here that 1st and 2nd stage appeals are usually rejected and to bring to next stage addition of more facts is needed. All details are mentioned below

Dear Appeals Team,

Thank you for reviewing my appeal. I wish to contest the penalty fare issued on my recent journey, as I believe the circumstances and the nature of my ticket should exempt me from this charge. I purchased a ticket online via the app before boarding the train. I received a success message confirming my booking, but once on board, I was unable to retrieve the ticket either through the app or my email. After multiple attempts to resolve what appeared to be a technical issue, I was unable to access the booking. Given that I had often seen passengers buy tickets from staff on the train, I assumed that if the app continued to fail, I could simply buy a ticket from the staff. However, after a few more tries, I was able to retrieve my flexible ticket, which was valid for the train I was travelling on. When the inspector demanded, I immediately showed ticket without hesitation or delay. Despite this, I was issued a penalty fare (attached) on the grounds that the ticket was "purchased after departure". The flexible ticket I obtained is attached clearly stating that it is valid for the whole day for any super off-peak single journey, and "purchased after departure" is not listed as an option to charge penalty even on this portal. Moreover, I noticed that the penalty fare was incorrect, as the correct fare from Birmingham New Street to London Euston at that time should have been £20, not £19. I was also not offered the option to pay a penalty fare till Wolverton (the next station) and continue with my valid ticket for the rest of the journey. Additionally, I would like to highlight that Birmingham New Street station lacks clear signage informing passengers that tickets must be purchased before boarding the train (I am attaching the picture before barriers and platform)

Bringing to your notice:

Regulation 16(3)(a) - that the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;” based on the failure to meet the notice requirements specified in Regulation 8.
and
Regulation 16(3)(d) that “there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.”.

Relevant sections of the Regulations:
Regulation 6(2)(b) states that a passenger must not be charged a Penalty Fare if “at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train… the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied;”

The relevant sections of Regulation 8 are as follows:

"8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.
(4) Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train"

The relevant sections of paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 are as follows:
“1.—(1) A standard notice must contain—
(c)the wording “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”

I am attaching a few pictures of Birmingham New Street Station showing the absence of any standard notice.

This lack of clarity contributed to my confusion regarding the ticket purchase process. I understand that the rail industry expects passengers to make every effort to buy the correct ticket for their journey. However, I believe that this was an honest mistake, largely influenced by technical issues and the confusing practices by the operators. I would also like to quote the Minister of State for Transport stating: Rail users should make every effort to get the right ticket for their journey, but if you make an honest mistake you should feel confident that the appeals system will recognise this and treat you fairly. Given these circumstances, I respectfully request that the penalty fare be cancelled. I am a responsible traveller, and I would never intentionally evade a fare. I trust that my situation will be considered fairly, considering the technical issues, lack of signage, and my immediate cooperation in producing the valid ticket. Thank you for your time and consideration.

 

[Haywain]

I am attaching a few pictures of Birmingham New Street Station showing the absence of any standard notice.

These all appear to be taken in a way that reduces the chances of any notices being included.

 

[Titfield]

AFAIK Birmingham New Street is a Controlled Ticket Area and therefore the notices will be immediately before the area of the CTA i.e. at the gateline.

How they comply with the requirement for a notice for passengers changing trains I do not know.

 

[Ducatist4]

The notices wouldn't be hanging from the roof now would they? They'll usually be adjacent to the point where you enter the station itself or before the gate line, typically yellow and the size of a large bill board poster like you see in the side of a bus stop. Like this one on the left, coincidentally at Birmingham New Street Station.

 

[Anvil1984]

These all appear to be taken in a way that reduces the chances of any notices being included.

Not even that, the pictures are all taken off the internet, I believe it’s showmethejourney.com he’s lifted them off

 

[Nida]

These all appear to be taken in a way that reduces the chances of any notices being included.

All images are from a website because I cant go to station anymore to take pictures, though I did not see any notices there

AFAIK Birmingham New Street is a Controlled Ticket Area and therefore the notices will be immediately before the area of the CTA i.e. at the gateline.

How they comply with the requirement for a notice for passengers changing trains I do not know.

As regulation guides on visibility, they need to put notices on platforms as well so that passengers having a stopover in Birmingham know that though they are inside barriers, they should not buy ticket on train and do it before boarding

The notices wouldn't be hanging from the roof now would they? They'll usually be adjacent to the point where you enter the station itself or before the gate line, typically yellow and the size of a large bill board poster like you see in the side of a bus stop. Like this one on the left, coincidentally at Birmingham New Street Station.

Regulation states that they at least one should be visible everywhere passenger goes before boarding the train and looking at platforms themselves or anywhere inside the lounge there is no notice, hence people having stopover of course often not cross barriers to see them

 

[Titfield]

As I am not familiar with Birmingham New Street I can not make specific comment but what I would say is that before making assertions of lack of signage you need to be confident that is indeed the case. I would not be surprised if the TOC came back with a strong rebuttal and provided evidence. The regulation you have quoted states "at least one notice" - that IMHO is a very low threshold to reach.

 

[Cuthbert]

How come you didn't buy a ticket from your starting location to Euston with the app?

 

[Nida]

How come you didn't buy a ticket from your starting location to Euston with the app?

I did , as mentioned in the details, but did not check email confirmation and it did not come through

 

[Bletchleyite]

AFAIK Birmingham New Street is a Controlled Ticket Area and therefore the notices will be immediately before the area of the CTA i.e. at the gateline.

I have never seen any signage at New St suggesting it to be a CTA. Not to say it isn't, but isn't that supposed to be signed prominently?

 

[Titfield]

I have never seen any signage at New St suggesting it to be a CTA. Not to say it isn't, but isn't that supposed to be signed prominently?

"8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.
(4) Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train"

An arguable point as to what is "readily visible" and what are "sufficient locations".

I interpret the regulation to mean that you can not get onto a platform or into a cta without having passed at least one notice that is readily visible. As regards readily visible I suspect that on the basis of what we can see at stations that an A0 poster (33 inches x 46 inches approx) is deemed to be of an appropriate size. I also note that these posters are usually in high contract colours and headed appropriately.

 

[Haywain]

I did , as mentioned in the details, but did not check email confirmation and it did not come through

You didn't. You say you bought a ticket from Birmingham New Street but you also say that wasn't your starting station:

I was travelling from another station to Birmingham New street

 

[anothertyke]

You didn't. You say you bought a ticket from Birmingham New Street but you also say that wasn't your starting station:

I thought the OP said in post 1 they did two things :

1.Attempted to buy a ticket ( whether before boarding or on board the local train is not clear). This failed to go through.

2. On seeing the ticket check, purchased another ticket on board from Birmingham to Euston.

However I don't think the wording in post 15 describes that adequately.

 

[WesternLancer]

As I’ve said before my advice is to pay the Penskty Fare and keep your head down.

It’s obvious to me you have not paid correctly for tickets on previous journeys either deliberately or by accident. If I can work that out so can the railway company in my opinion. So don’t draw attention to yourself.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Isn't the fare for a Super Off Peak Single (route WMR & LNR only) to London Euston exactly the same if starting from many local Birmingham area stations, as it is if starting from Birmingham New Street itself? So, why buy the local ticket in addition?

 

[WesternLancer]

Isn't the fare for a Super Off Peak Single (route WMR & LNR only) to London Euston exactly the same if starting from many local Birmingham area stations, as it is if starting from Birmingham New Street itself? So, why buy the local ticket in addition?

In order to get through the gates and on to the rail network without paying for the full distance travelled would be what the railway investigation team would likely suspect.

Hence my advice not to draw further attention to the matter.