Ticket "excess" query

miami

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Could you use an off peak ticket from Glasgow Central with an effective Monday-Friday time restriction of "not valid 0430-0859" on the 0422 TPE southbound Anglo Scottish service?

I can't see any specific tickets, but which one are you talking about?

A Glasgow to London off peak ticket (via West Coast) will not be allowed on trains arriving in London Euston after 04:29 and before 10:05 Monday to Thursday, so not allowed on the 0428 to Euston, but is allowed on the 0422 (and any other train) as they aren't going to London Euston.

On the other hand a normal Glasgow to Manchester off peak ticket would be allowed on both the 0422 and 0428 (it's simply "Not valid on trains scheduled to depart before 04:15.").

The Transpennine only one is not valid on services timed to depart between 04:29 and 09:00, which should be OK on the 0422, but not the 0745 to Liverpool.

A Glasgow to Carlisle off peak return is not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:00, so again OK on the 0422 and 0428, but not the 0533.
 
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Haywain

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Could you use an off peak ticket from Glasgow Central with an effective Monday-Friday time restriction of "not valid 0430-0859" on the 0422 TPE southbound Anglo Scottish service?
An effective restriction? It's the actual restriction that counts. What ticket do you have in mind?
 

Watershed

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Glasgow Central->Carlisle. Off Peak Return. (SVR). Restriction code 2R.
That's fine, the restriction is on boarding trains during the barred period.

Glasgow-Carlisle is extremely unusual amongst intercity flows in having trains departing before 04:30.
 

miklcct

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It depends on the wording of the restriction, but in the case of restriction code 2V, which is widely used by CrossCountry, you would be allowed to board a train departing before 04:30 and to remain onboard for as long as you like. Journey planners reflect this.

Good luck finding a train that departs before 04:30 though!
So by the same logic, you would not be allowed to take a train which departs at 09:15 even if it runs all day long. If OP is sold a ticket to Cheltenham only, after Cheltenham the OP would not have a valid ticket because it is out of validity of the Cheltenham ticket, and the fact that OP joined the train before 09:30 would render the off-peak ticket invalid for that train (it would be valid if OP boarded another service, and joined the train at Cheltenham).
 

Watershed

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So by the same logic, you would not be allowed to take a train which departs at 09:15 even if it runs all day long. If OP is sold a ticket to Cheltenham only, after Cheltenham the OP would not have a valid ticket because it is out of validity of the Cheltenham ticket, and the fact that OP joined the train before 09:30 would render the off-peak ticket invalid for that train (it would be valid if OP boarded another service, and joined the train at Cheltenham).
"Boarding" doesn't literally mean stepping on the train. It refers to when you start using that ticket.

Unless otherwise specified, time restrictions only apply to the time a particular train departs.
 

miklcct

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"Boarding" doesn't literally mean stepping on the train. It refers to when you start using that ticket.

Unless otherwise specified, time restrictions only apply to the time a particular train departs.

If it refers to when you start using the ticket, that mean I will be able start a journey using an off-peak ticket before 04:30 even if a change is necessary after 04:30?! I really don't think that's the intention as the wording is "trains scheduled to depart". In OP's case, it is very clear that he took a train scheduled to depart before 09:30, hence an off-peak ticket would not be valid on that train even if it continues into afternoon.

I am getting very confused now. If the restriction doesn't specify a station, which of the following is used to determine if a ticket is valid to cover a particular segment of the journey?
1. The time when a passenger boarded the train.
2. The time when the journey started, or if a break of journey is involved, the most recent segment after any break taken.
3. The time when the train last called at a station.
4. The time when the ticket started to be used, after any previous breaks of journey.
 

yorkie

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If such a ticket will be valid from an intermediate station after 09:30, by the same logic, it will not be valid if I start the journey before 04:30 after it makes a station call after 04:30, that I need to buy an anytime to cover the remainder, right?
You are confused; the way it works is that a journey planner looks at the name of the station you board the train and the time the train departs and compares this to the electronic data in the ticket restriction; if the data passes the validity check, the ticket is deemed valid on that train. A further check is then made to check for any restriction based on where and when the passenger alights from the train. These steps are repeated for all trains in the itinerary.

Station calls where you neither board nor alight are irrelevant.
Could you use an off peak ticket from Glasgow Central with an effective Monday-Friday time restriction of "not valid 0430-0859" on the 0422 TPE southbound Anglo Scottish service?
Of course.
 

miklcct

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You are confused; the way it works is that a journey planner looks at the name of the station you board the train and the time the train departs and compares this to the electronic data in the ticket restriction; if the data passes the validity check, the ticket is deemed valid on that train. A further check is then made to check for any restriction based on where and when the passenger alights from the train. These steps are repeated for all trains in the itinerary.

Station calls where you neither board nor alight are irrelevant.

So in this way a peak - off-peak split ticketing won't work unless you get off the train to change to the other train. The time the train departs at the station you board the train is before 09:30, therefore the off-peak ticket is not valid, right? Applying the same logic on OP's journey, an off-peak ticket from neither Birmingham nor Cheltenham will be valid because the departure time where OP boarded the train (i.e. Birmingham) was before 09:30, right?
 

AlbertBeale

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So in this way a peak - off-peak split ticketing won't work unless you get off the train to change to the other train. The time the train departs at the station you board the train is before 09:30, therefore the off-peak ticket is not valid, right? Applying the same logic on OP's journey, an off-peak ticket from neither Birmingham nor Cheltenham will be valid because the departure time where OP boarded the train (i.e. Birmingham) was before 09:30, right?

Wrong. You're making one journey with a Brum-Cheltenham ticket; and a subsequent journey (albeit on the same train) Cheltenham to Bristol. The validity of each ticket needs to match the timing of the journey for which you use that ticket. If the second ticket is valid for the second journey (which an off-peak ticket is at that point), the fact that you started travelling at a peak-time is irrelevant (if you had a peak-valid ticket for that journey) since you weren't using the off-peak ticket at the point. For ticket validity purposes, since you used two successive tickets, it was two different journeys. Quite simple really.
 

robbeech

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Wrong. You're making one journey with a Brum-Cheltenham ticket; and a subsequent journey (albeit on the same train) Cheltenham to Bristol.
Not quite. Section 14 of the National Rail Conditions of travel state you may use a combination of tickets for your ‘journey’. So you are still making just the one journey but you are using multiple tickets for it. The concept you specify is correct in that the validity of each ticket needs to be correct at each point that you change tickets within your journey but it’s crucial to remember that it is one journey or this could cause significant issues in the event of disruption.

I think people are forgetting that there are several different types of restrictions that may appear similar on the surface but are actually very different.

Here is a generic one (2V) where we see that the passenger is not allowed to use the ticket on a train scheduled to depart before a given time, in this case 0930. It makes no reference to stations, direction of travel or anything else. For this reason the ticket can be used on any train from the first stop scheduled after 0930 within its validity.

The other common type of restriction is a location one. An example is “not valid on trains timed to depart [station] before 0930. This prohibits the use of trains with those tickets entirely. In the example here, should that restriction be in place instead of then the passenger would not be able to use their ticket on that train at any point.
 

AlbertBeale

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Not quite. Section 14 of the National Rail Conditions of travel state you may use a combination of tickets for your ‘journey’. So you are still making just the one journey but you are using multiple tickets for it. The concept you specify is correct in that the validity of each ticket needs to be correct at each point that you change tickets within your journey but it’s crucial to remember that it is one journey or this could cause significant issues in the event of disruption.

I think people are forgetting that there are several different types of restrictions that may appear similar on the surface but are actually very different.

Here is a generic one (2V) where we see that the passenger is not allowed to use the ticket on a train scheduled to depart before a given time, in this case 0930. It makes no reference to stations, direction of travel or anything else. For this reason the ticket can be used on any train from the first stop scheduled after 0930 within its validity.

The other common type of restriction is a location one. An example is “not valid on trains timed to depart [station] before 0930. This prohibits the use of trains with those tickets entirely. In the example here, should that restriction be in place instead of then the passenger would not be able to use their ticket on that train at any point.

Yes - thanks - I was struggling to find the right word. "Journey" is as you say here, and that's important in terms of delay compensation. Perhaps I should have said that the ticket used for any segment of a journey needs to be one which is valid for that segment. So the off-peak ticket used for the second segment here would be valid since there's no break of journey or starting short restriction, and hence it is valid at the point at which it legitimately starts to be used.

I can see why people can get confused ... unfortunately this can include people employed by the railway to oversee ticketing validity...
 

miami

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Scheduled or actual time of departure?

The Glasgow-Carlisle (any route) ticket mentioned has the restriction

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:00 -- https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/2R

So if your train is timed to depart at 04:29 but actually leaves at 04:32, that's fine. On the other hand if you turn up at 09:01 and get the late running 08:55 that's not.

I'm not sure whether that "trains to depart" applies to the point you board the train, or the point the train departs it's original station. For example could you board the 0709 Glasgow to Carlisle train at Dumfries (scheduled departure of 0901). My inference from other restriction codes (notably 2V) is it's the point you board the train.

On the other hand an off peak Glasgow to Euston (restriction 3A) is valid on all trains apart from ones timed to arrive at London Euston after 04:29 and before 10:05, Monday to Thursday (also restrictions at Milton Keynes and Watford and different ones if you are heading East of Northampton or south-west of Birmingham), which doesn't care about the train departure time at all. As such, that ticket isn't valid on the 0428 (timed to arrive at Euston at 0910), but is fine on the 0422 from Glasgow to Manchester, and assuming XC is running late the 0827 to Birmingham.

It looks like it would also be valid on the 18:40 departure changing at Carlisle and arriving 2306 at Birmingham New Street, then onto the 0515 from Moor Street, arriving at 0706 into Marylebone (should one want to travel that way for some reason instead of staying on the 1840, or taknig the the Sleeper train, which is in 3A as an exception)
 
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Maybe in the future, rail ticket purchasers will be required to have a PhD in logistical thinking and its application.
 

miami

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Maybe in the future, rail ticket purchasers will be required to have a PhD in logistical thinking and its application.

Or just the ability to read instructions printed on the ticket, like those at say


Of course it would be nice if rail ticket vendors could do that rather than threaten you with prosecution for what they think they know, and only back down after a post on this forum
 

Bletchleyite

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Or just the ability to read instructions printed on the ticket, like those at say


Of course it would be nice if rail ticket vendors could do that rather than threaten you with prosecution for what they think they know, and only back down after a post on this forum

Well done for picking one of the simplest ones going. Now try one of the complex ones.
 

Bletchleyite

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If it's too complex to be read by the man on the clapham omnibus, it shouldn't exist

Here's one that many in the rail industry can't cope with. https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/1E

Is it valid on a train arriving at 10:40 at Euston?

Yes, it is indeed*. However, it is an utter mess and should have been a separate one for each of the listed stations, not crammed into one.

* London Euston after 04:29 and before 10:05, except on Caledonian Sleeper services (with supplement);

These sound like they should affect Euston arrival time but actually don't as it can't be implemented using the journey planners:
  • Watford Junction after 04:29 and before 10:20, except on Caledonian Sleeper services (with supplement);
  • Milton Keynes Central after 04:29 and before 10:20, except on Caledonian Sleeper services (with supplement).
 

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