Ticket inspections

[Shrop]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but here goes. A trip from Euston to Crewe last week brought to mind the incredible inconsistencies of ticket inspections on trains that I've seen many times in the past. No-one expects every staff member or TOC to operate in an identical manner on all services, but some differences really are striking.

For example, on plenty of routes on Friday and Saturday evenings, train managers are nowhere to be seen because the abuse and anti-social behaviour they can encounter while trying to do their jobs is simply not worth the hassle of venturing out, which means that travelling between unstaffed stations can become a fare-evaders charter. But then the converse can apply, where law-abiding citizens can do their best to pay fares while ticket machines aren't working, only to then be faced with disbelieving train staff intent on prosecuting for the most trivial and sometimes completely undeserving of "offences".

When I used to use the train between Northwich and Altrincham some years ago, the train manager had an absolutely impossible job trying to fight though a mass of commuters in a packed train, trying to issue and inspect tickets between stations, most of which were on average only 5 minutes apart, giving absolutely no chance of remembering every time who he'd seen and who he hadn't. I'm sure there are many routes where similar applies today.
The converse to this is on my trip last week, we left Euston on the 08.46 (West Midlands Trains) to Crewe, the barrier at Euston was completely unstaffed and no-one came round on the train at any point to inspect our tickets. Now it might be that the ticket barriers at Crewe were in operation, but Sandbach and Nantwich both offer easy opportunities just a few minutes from Crewe to leave at unstaffed stations, and probably before the train manager on those trains has had chance to do a full ticket inspection.

As I said above, no-one expects perfect consistency and these are just a couple of many examples, but it does seem strange that you can go for over two hours on some regularly stopping trains without any inspections, while on others there are inspections every few minutes - if the train manager can keep up! Happy to hear of any other experiences ...

 

[Haywain]

Yes, things vary quite a lot.

 

[Merseysider]

It really is variable.

I went from Hull to Liverpool last night - barriers at Hull open - nobody checking tickets in the front unit - and the only ticket check took place at the Lime St barriers.

On the other hand, I get gripped almost every time between Manchester and Birmingham.

 

[BongoStar]

In my post Covid experience, I have never had a ticket inspection on trains after 8pm from Birmingham or 9pm from London to Reading. Have always had the ticket but I can imagine there might be some who would have just got on, or shorted their ticket and can easily exit Reading as the barriers are left open late at night - (10pm I my estimate)

 

[Joe Paxton]

It's not uncommon for there to be little interest in seeing the associated Railcard that provided a discount - the classic example being older passengers and their Senior Railcards, but those who are younger and who hold tickets discounted with another Railcard can be met with indifference too. Perhaps if Railcards were checked more often, the seemingly frequent issue of people finding themselves in trouble for travelling on an out-of-date Railcard might be lessened.

Had a ticket check on SWR recently where the guard just wanted to scan the e-tickets, when I then proffered my Railcard (a digital version so also on my mobile and hence needed to be navigated to) they weren't interested and explicitly said 'I just want to get my scans up' (does SWR offer a bonus per scan?).

 

[OscarH]

It's not uncommon for there to be little interest in seeing the associated Railcard that provided a discount - the classic example being older passengers and their Senior Railcards, but those who are younger and who hold tickets discounted with another Railcard can be met with indifference too. Perhaps if Railcards were checked more often, the seemingly frequent issue of people finding themselves in trouble for travelling on an out-of-date Railcard might be lessened.

Had a ticket check on SWR recently where the guard just wanted to scan the e-tickets, when I then proffered my Railcard (a digital version so also on my mobile and hence needed to be navigated to) they weren't interested and explicitly said 'I just want to get my scans up' (does SWR offer a bonus per scan?).

SWR should count railcard scans for the stats too to fix that!

 

[Hadders]

This subject crops up regularly so it's probably time for me to point out that onboard ticket checks are only a part of an overall revenue collection strategy. The following also have a big part to play:

1. Ticket structure and checks - this is where the British Rail fares structure helps with off peak day returns costing 10p more than a single and off peak returns £1 more. On a typical return journey there are at least six opportunities to check a ticket:

- On the outward journey at the starting station
- Onboard the outward train
- At the destination of the outward journey
- At the stating station of the return journey
- Onboard the return train
- At the destination of the return journey

As long as one of these ticket checks takes place then the railway effectively recovers its revenue. Single leg pricing doesn't help with this strategy but there are other things that can be done:

2. Ticket purchasing needs to be easy and straightforward. Clearly more that can be done in this area but there are many more options than there used to be with online purchasing, ticket machines, smartcards (and in the London area) contactless that simply weren't available 20 years ago.

3. Ticket barriers at busy stations doesn't guarantee that passengers have the correct ticket but it does at least mean they have a ticket. Given the volumes pf passengers concerned there is a place for them and done correctly does help to keep the undesirables out of the system as well.

4. Staff presence - a visible staff presence goes a long way to deter and give the impression of a safe environment. Onboard staff should be visible, not hidden in the back cab, or rushing to open doors every few minutes.

5. Digital ticketing gives the opportunity for passenger behaviour to be monitored in the background. For example which passengers touch in but never touch out? Who buys short distance tickets at either end of their journey indicating that they might be doughnutting? Who is regularly buying tickets with a railcard discount they could never be entitled to? Who has a history of refunding tickets where they might have been used? All this sort of stuff can be checked in the background and flagged for further investigation. It's important to note that someone might not have done anything wrong, simply that it needs following up. We have seen evidence of train companies using these methods but there is probably much more that can be done.

6. Education, deterrent and enforcement - clearly there does need to be a clear message that you need to travel with the correct ticket and the consequences of not doing so. A balance does need to be struck here though because the majority of passengers are honest and the message needs to be clear and welcoming not one of an oppressive environment.

We will never get to the position where 100% of revenue is collected, the cost in collecting the last bit of revenue would be far more than the revenue involved.

Not all of the above are appropriate to every route but train companies need to create an environment where it is accepted that people pay. Equally, what is not needed is a hostile environment - that was seen not so long ago on Chiltern with a number of awfully written notices on trains and toilets which gave totally the wrong impression to travellers.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

clearly there does need to be a clear message that you need to travel with the correct ticket

Shouldn't this also apply to rail staff enforcing tickets? The Disputes forum has planty of examples where staff didn't know what was or wasn't a correct ticket and how to deal with incorrect ones.

But doesn't the treatment vary with the type of incorrect ticket? For example having a discounted ticket with a non-existent or expired railcard counts as not having a ticket and opens up possible prosecution. Similarly it would seem that an Advance ticket on the wrong train can be treated the saem way. That may also apply to travelling with the wrong TOC. However travelling on the wrong route, even with the wrong TOC only counts as needing to pay an excess. Likewise travelling on a service not permitted by a ticket's restriction code.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

However travelling on the wrong route, even with the wrong TOC only counts as needing to pay an excess.

Is that last bit correct? Thought TOC specific tickets (even Anytimes) couldn't be excessed to any operator.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Is that last bit correct? Thought TOC specific tickets (even Anytimes) couldn't be excessed to any operator.

I was thinking of the cases in Liverpool. But I agree those were only indirectly TOC specific as the ticket was via X where only one TOC used that route.

 

[yorkie]

For example, on plenty of routes on Friday and Saturday evenings, train managers are nowhere to be seen because the abuse and anti-social behaviour they can encounter while trying to do their jobs is simply not worth the hassle of venturing out....

Maybe but I've been on many services where there has been no sign of abuse or anti social behaviour and where no check has been made.

It varies more by operator/route than time of day, in my experience.

However on certain routes, evening checks can be rare; this is much more likely on XC/TPE than it is on Northern trains into York. Northern generally do still check even in the evenings, but not always on later services.

. But then the converse can apply, where law-abiding citizens can do their best to pay fares while ticket machines aren't working, only to then be faced with disbelieving train staff intent on prosecuting for the most trivial and sometimes completely undeserving of "offences".

Unfortunately some on board staff mistreat passengers and overcharge customers; it is a minority but they give the entire industry a bad name. There are insufficient safeguards in place to prevent or reduce this.

I was also on a train yesterday where the Guard was threatening to charge people for a journey where the previous trains had been cancelled, leaving a huge gap in service. I'm not sure if the Guard's aim was to generate a bad image of their company, but they certainly achieved that. However such behaviour appears to be tolerated and even encouraged at some TOCs.

we left Euston on the 08.46 (West Midlands Trains) to Crewe, the barrier at Euston was completely unstaffed and no-one came round on the train at any point to inspect our tickets...

This is completely normal for West Midlands Trains, especially on their "LNR" branded route, where on-board inspections are incredibly rare. I would be extremely surprised if you had an on board check.

it does seem strange that you can go for over two hours on some regularly stopping trains without any inspections, while on others there are inspections every few minutes..

I did Carlisle to Hamilton on Saturday; no check at all on Avanti on an afternoon service. It was quiet in my coach with a fair few spare seats. After a break of journey in Glasgow, I got an evening train to Hamilton and the ticket examiner came through within moments of departing Central. What a contrast. That is absolutely in line with what I expected, as it matches my previous experiences of such journeys (I've even had my ticket checked before we departed Central!). It was the same on my Sunday journey in reverse, i.e. checked on Scotrail but no check at all on Avanti.

 

[jmh59]

It's not uncommon for there to be little interest in seeing the associated Railcard that provided a discount - the classic example being older passengers and their Senior Railcards,

Indeed, I had never been asked for my senior railcard except on LNER on our last trip where evidence was insisted upon.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed, I had never been asked for my senior railcard except on LNER on our last trip where evidence was insisted upon.

16-25 Railcards are far more likely to be requested to be shown than Senior Railcards. Disabled Railcards are incredibly unlikely to be shown.

Of course some staff may absolutely treat Railcards equally, but overall the experience of different Railcard holders is absolutely not equal between the Railcards.

I've been with a Disabled Railcard holder who was not asked to show their Railcard despite the passenger before us being specifically asked for their 16-25 Railcard, as well as hearing the experiences of holders of various different Railcards.

 

[Haywain]

I was thinking of the cases in Liverpool. But I agree those were only indirectly TOC specific as the ticket was via X where only one TOC used that route.

Merseyrail may not like it but the tickets in question are in no way TOC specific.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Personally, I've got no issue at all with inconsistent ticket checking. If it appears to be random, that's better for catching fare evaders compared to it always happening at certain points in the journey, giving the fare evader the opportunity to get off / hide in the bog / pretend to be asleep etc.

What irks me is the inconsistent outcomes when issues are found that we read about in the disputes & prosecutions section every day

 

[redreni]

This subject crops up regularly so it's probably time for me to point out that onboard ticket checks are only a part of an overall revenue collection strategy. The following also have a big part to play:

1. Ticket structure and checks - this is where the British Rail fares structure helps with off peak day returns costing 10p more than a single and off peak returns £1 more. On a typical return journey there are at least six opportunities to check a ticket:

- On the outward journey at the starting station
- Onboard the outward train
- At the destination of the outward journey
- At the stating station of the return journey
- Onboard the return train
- At the destination of the return journey

As long as one of these ticket checks takes place then the railway effectively recovers its revenue. Single leg pricing doesn't help with this strategy but there are other things that can be done:

2. Ticket purchasing needs to be easy and straightforward. Clearly more that can be done in this area but there are many more options than there used to be with online purchasing, ticket machines, smartcards (and in the London area) contactless that simply weren't available 20 years ago.

3. Ticket barriers at busy stations doesn't guarantee that passengers have the correct ticket but it does at least mean they have a ticket. Given the volumes pf passengers concerned there is a place for them and done correctly does help to keep the undesirables out of the system as well.

4. Staff presence - a visible staff presence goes a long way to deter and give the impression of a safe environment. Onboard staff should be visible, not hidden in the back cab, or rushing to open doors every few minutes.

5. Digital ticketing gives the opportunity for passenger behaviour to be monitored in the background. For example which passengers touch in but never touch out? Who buys short distance tickets at either end of their journey indicating that they might be doughnutting? Who is regularly buying tickets with a railcard discount they could never be entitled to? Who has a history of refunding tickets where they might have been used? All this sort of stuff can be checked in the background and flagged for further investigation. It's important to note that someone might not have done anything wrong, simply that it needs following up. We have seen evidence of train companies using these methods but there is probably much more that can be done.

6. Education, deterrent and enforcement - clearly there does need to be a clear message that you need to travel with the correct ticket and the consequences of not doing so. A balance does need to be struck here though because the majority of passengers are honest and the message needs to be clear and welcoming not one of an oppressive environment.

We will never get to the position where 100% of revenue is collected, the cost in collecting the last bit of revenue would be far more than the revenue involved.

Not all of the above are appropriate to every route but train companies need to create an environment where it is accepted that people pay. Equally, what is not needed is a hostile environment - that was seen not so long ago on Chiltern with a number of awfully written notices on trains and toilets which gave totally the wrong impression to travellers.

On (4), the alternatives appear to be to have on-board staff rushing to open doors every few minutes, or not to have on-board staff. Just as the alternative to having station staff 'behind the glass' turned out to be a proposal that would have scrapped the last bit of regulation requiring many stations to be staffed. I'd love to be able to support a bit of flexibility in working practices on the railway, but that would require a proposal for change in which the new state would be better than the old state, rather than just cheaper or less well regulated.

On the lines I use most frequently (Elizabeth Line, Thameslink and (metro) Southeastern) the only on-board staff you ever see are RPIs and I've seen none so far this financial year, maybe one or two the previous financial year. That's not enough to deter anyone doing anything. It's more of an issue, of course, on Thameslink and Southeastern because they serve so many ungated (and often unstaffed) stations.

I do take the point that on-board ticket checks are, perhaps, not the best way to enforce payment when the train stops every few minutes. Staffing the stations and having ticket barriers where possible makes more sense for those sorts of local trains. As you say, enabling revenue protection is by no means the only benefit of having staffed stations.

One of the things that surprises me the most is when I travel back into a London terminal and the barriers are open. If using the return portion of an open return, the only way to deter re-use or pave the way to detect re-use should it occur is surely to either (a) check it on the train or (b) make the passenger use it at the ticket barrier at the London end (but only if it's an e-ticket, which in my case it usually isn't as I normally buy it as a through ticket to my local station). Given most people are travelling on e-tickets, however, I do find it surprising that they don't want to get those tickets scanned on arrival into London so that they can't be used again.

 

[Krokodil]

16-25 Railcards are far more likely to be requested to be shown than Senior Railcards. Disabled Railcards are incredibly unlikely to be shown.

Of course some staff may absolutely treat Railcards equally, but overall the experience of different Railcard holders is absolutely not equal between the Railcards.

I've been with a Disabled Railcard holder who was not asked to show their Railcard despite the passenger before us being specifically asked for their 16-25 Railcard, as well as hearing the experiences of holders of various different Railcards.

Some railcard discounts get misused more than others. 16-17 Savers offer a 50% discount so sometimes get "accidentally" used instead of 16-25 (though the extra few months validity for season tickets adds a bit of confusion regarding expiry). These almost always get checked.

Jobcentre Railcards also have a 50% discount and the misuse rate is astonishing. So I check every single time.

I see very little misuse of Senior and Disabled Railcards. In fact they are the ones most likely to be shown without me even having to ask. Though there are one or two old men who get snippy if I do dare to be the first person all year to ask to see it (the women on the other hand are delighted).

 

[BongoStar]

I presume that ToCs do a cost benefit analysis and some times it might just not be worth it having an inspection, especially late night. With the amount of overtime to pay and subsequent staff schedule filling to cover the hours lost due to staff working their maximum allowed hours, it might take 10 PFs to just break even. Leave aside the staff complaining about other issues like work life balance, unsociable hours etc etc.

Could be wrong, just speculating here.

 

[Hadders]

On the lines I use most frequently (Elizabeth Line, Thameslink and (metro) Southeastern) the only on-board staff you ever see are RPIs and I've seen none so far this financial year, maybe one or two the previous financial year. That's not enough to deter anyone doing anything. It's more of an issue, of course, on Thameslink and Southeastern because they serve so many ungated (and often unstaffed) stations.

I've had quite a few ticket checks on Thameslink trains this year. They've certainly stepped up the number of RPIs who are out and about.

I do take the point that on-board ticket checks are, perhaps, not the best way to enforce payment when the train stops every few minutes. Staffing the stations and having ticket barriers where possible makes more sense for those sorts of local trains. As you say, enabling revenue protection is by no means the only benefit of having staffed stations.

At my local station the barriers are in operation from 06:00 until 23:00. I regularly see people being dealt with for things like trying to use contactless.

One of the things that surprises me the most is when I travel back into a London terminal and the barriers are open. If using the return portion of an open return, the only way to deter re-use or pave the way to detect re-use should it occur is surely to either (a) check it on the train or (b) make the passenger use it at the ticket barrier at the London end (but only if it's an e-ticket, which in my case it usually isn't as I normally buy it as a through ticket to my local station). Given most people are travelling on e-tickets, however, I do find it surprising that they don't want to get those tickets scanned on arrival into London so that they can't be used again.

If it's a day return I'd say the revenue risk is small because there aren't going to be may people who would make two return journeys in a day.

If it's an off-peak return with longer validity ont he return portion then there is a risk but these sort of tickets are generally only available on longer distance trains where there should be more chance of the ticket being checked onboard.

 

[azOOOOOma]

I tend to ask for rail cards all of the time but often get told ‘nobody’s asked to see it before’ or ‘we didn’t get asked on the way down’. It was just how I was trained and what I thought every other guard was doing!

 

[MrJeeves]

I tend to ask for rail cards all of the time but often get told ‘nobody’s asked to see it before’ or ‘we didn’t get asked on the way down’. It was just how I was trained and what I thought every other guard was doing!

It's certainly, in my opinion, what every member of staff should be doing!

Even better is if the Railcard barcode is scanned to confirm it's not been altered!

 

[Chriso]

Some people don’t care and actually record it fearing no consequences

I feel for the guard dealing with this must get infuriating after a while

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Some people don’t care and actually record it fearing no consequences

I feel for the guard dealing with this must get infuriating after a while

Shameless chancer! (Coming soon to the 'Disputes & Prosecutions' sub-forum?) Where was that, by the way?

 

[Chriso]

the interior is a SWR class 455 but not sure where though. Very rare to see inspectors on them checking tickets

 

[fairlie]

16-25 Railcards are far more likely to be requested to be shown than Senior Railcards. Disabled Railcards are incredibly unlikely to be shown.

Of course some staff may absolutely treat Railcards equally, but overall the experience of different Railcard holders is absolutely not equal between the Railcards.

I've been with a Disabled Railcard holder who was not asked to show their Railcard despite the passenger before us being specifically asked for their 16-25 Railcard, as well as hearing the experiences of holders of various different Railcards.

I have a 16-25 railcard as a mature student and it hardly ever gets asked for - on appearance, I would challenge me as to whether I had one! Even when I offer it, often staff aren't desperately interested.

 

[transportphoto]

Even better is if the Railcard barcode is scanned to confirm it's not been altered!

Little need to scan a railcard if you watch someone open an approved app and show the railcard. Screenshots on the other hand… that’s where you can catch people out.