Ticket Irregularity Report

[Jack19w]

Yesterday I was issued a ticket irregularity report when travelling from Warrington West to Manchester Piccadilly. I am awaiting to be contacted by the train company, but wanted to explain my circumstances to see where I stand.

I had a valid open return ticket, that said it could be used anytime off peak. When I arrived at the station, a train to Manchester was still at the platform that I was anticipating to have already left, however it was a minute delayed, 17:43, and so I decided to board the earlier train, I had not yet purchased my ticket as this was not the train I intended to travel on, but purchased one at 17:44, within a minute of boarding.

When an inspector checked the ticket, I was told that it was not valid as i bought it after I boarded, I explained my confusion, as it says in the validity details and terms and conditions that the ticket could be used for travel anytime, and that the reason I bough the ticket after boarding, was because it was no longer available to purchase on the trainline app, having arrived at the platform slightly later than anticipated.

Any help with this matter, concerning where I stand in terms of liability, and also the usual process with ticket irregularities would be much appreciated.

 

[ainsworth74]

Hmm, this might be tricky.

Technically speaking you joined the service without a valid ticket which is a breach of Byelaw 18(1):

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas​

1. in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel

Railway byelaws

www.gov.uk

Which is a strict liability offence (basically pass/fail, there is no mitigation, same as a speeding offence for instance). Clearly this seems somewhat harsh considering that you did buy your ticket as you were boarding the train and it was only because the train left a little later that you actually were able to board. But I'm not entirely sure that, were the company to try and prosecute, you'd be able to defend against it.

How long after the purchase of your ticket did the inspection take place out of interest?

 

[Jack19w]

Hmm, this might be tricky.

Technically speaking you joined the service without a valid ticket which is a breach of Byelaw 18(1):

Railway byelaws

www.gov.uk

Which is a strict liability offence (basically pass/fail, there is no mitigation, same as a speeding offence for instance). Clearly this seems somewhat harsh considering that you did buy your ticket as you were boarding the train and it was only because the train left a little later that you actually were able to board. But I'm not entirely sure that, were the company to try and prosecute, you'd be able to defend against it.

How long after the purchase of your ticket did the inspection take place out of interest?

About 20 - 30 mins later

 

[ainsworth74]

I think that's helpful to a degree as it shows that you didn't buy the ticket when you saw the inspector coming (which is a common wheeze) so helps demonstrate that there was no intent to avoid paying.

I think for the time being that you may as well wait for what the train company write to you with as it's hard to know what to suggest until we know more about what the company are thinking themselves. But it could be that a polite reply pointing out the circumstances, indicating that there is clearly no intent to avoid paying as you bought it well before any inspection and explaining that you now fully understand the importance of completing your purchase before joining the train and certainly won't do it again may yield a positive result. But, I have to warn you, that it may also achieve nothing and they may still seek either to prosecute or offer an out of court settlement in lieu of a prosecution.

For now I'd suggest it's a waiting game.

 

[Jack19w]

I think that's helpful to a degree as it shows that you didn't buy the ticket when you saw the inspector coming (which is a common wheeze) so helps demonstrate that there was no intent to avoid paying.

I think for the time being that you may as well wait for what the train company write to you with as it's hard to know what to suggest until we know more about what the company are thinking themselves. But it could be that a polite reply pointing out the circumstances, indicating that there is clearly no intent to avoid paying as you bought it well before any inspection and explaining that you now fully understand the importance of completing your purchase before joining the train and certainly won't do it again may yield a positive result. But, I have to warn you, that it may also achieve nothing and they may still seek either to prosecute or offer an out of court settlement in lieu of a prosecution.

For now I'd suggest it's a waiting game.

That makes sense, thank your for explaining. Out of curiosity how much usually is the out of court settlement?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Out of curiosity how much usually is the out of court settlement?

Could be around £100 plus the £10 Anytime Day Single fare (if they consider the ticket originally purchased online as not valid).

 

[furlong]

I had a valid open return ticket, that said it could be used anytime off peak.

DId you show that ticket to the inspector? If you had done so, you'd only have had to pay the difference in fare - what is known as an "excess" and something you can't normally buy on your phone or from ticket machines but only from ticket offices or staff on board.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Isn't the nub of the problem that the OP's ticket was allegedly purchased after boarding the train in question?

There's only Anytime Day Returns and Off Peak Day Returns available from Warrington West to Manchester Stns. The latter are valid after 0929, so, in any event, what would there ever be to excess for a journey commencing at or around 1744.

 

[furlong]

Isn't the nub of the problem that the OP's ticket was allegedly purchased after boarding the train in question?

I think you and I are interpreting the original post in different ways. The OP needs to clarify the ambiguities. (I wonder if there was even an advance involved.)

 

[Jack19w]

I think you and I are interpreting the original post in different ways. The OP needs to clarify the ambiguities. (I wonder if there was even an advance involved.)

No advanced ticket. The problem was that it was bought after boarding.

 

[30907]

I think you and I are interpreting the original post in different ways. The OP needs to clarify the ambiguities.

The OP said

"I had a valid open return ticket, ...., I had not yet purchased my ticket as this was not the train I intended to travel on, but purchased one at 17:44, within a minute of boarding."

I think "had" must mean "had when questioned" rather than "had already." There was only the one ticket.

 

[furlong]

What does this mean then?

"I had not yet purchased my ticket as this was not the train I intended to travel on"
"the reason I bought the ticket after boarding, was because it was no longer available to purchase on the trainline app"

What price did you pay for the ticket?

(The most common explanation for what you describe is someone purchasing the cheapest advance ticket for the next train which the app fails to make very clear isn't valid on the previous train.)

 

[Brissle Girl]

What does this mean then?

"I had not yet purchased my ticket as this was not the train I intended to travel on"
"the reason I bought the ticket after boarding, was because it was no longer available to purchase on the trainline app"

What price did you pay for the ticket?

(The most common explanation for what you describe is someone purchasing the cheapest advance ticket for the next train which the app fails to make very clear isn't valid on the previous train.)

The OP suggested in the first post and clarified in post 10 that it wasn’t an advanced ticket, and the problem is purely down to purchase after boarding.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The OP suggested in the first post and clarified in post 10 that it wasn’t an advanced ticket, and the problem is purely down to purchase after boarding.

Although there’s still room for confusion between Advanced = any type of ticket bought some time in advance of travelling, and Advanced = the specific type of ticket called ‘Advance’ which is cheap but only valid on one train.

OP - please could you help us by showing us a picture of your ticket? Or tell us the exact price you paid for it.

 

[spag23]

I had a valid open return ticket, that said it could be used anytime off peak.

The confusion arises from the OP saying they had a valid open return ticket. As it was purchased after boarding, it was of course not valid.

 

[Jack19w]

My ticket was an off peak day return, I paid £7.05 with the railcard discount. The inspector said the problem wasn't the ticket, but the fact it was bought after boarding. I thought this was harsh as i purchased the ticket the very minute after it had departed, and my reasoning was that I intended to actually board a later train, but the train I boarded was slightly delayed, giving me the opportunity to get to my destination earlier.

Additionally, I don't know why I was issued a ticket irregularity report as opposed to a penalty fare. A woman sat opposite had a very similar problem, and was issued the penalty fare.

 

[gray1404]

What time exactly did the ticket purchase take place? Please look at the confirmation email you received to ascertain this.

And was this the train you travelled on https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C18390/2024-01-22#allox_id=0

 

[scrapy]

What time exactly did the ticket purchase take place? Please look at the confirmation email you received to ascertain this.

And was this the train you travelled on https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C18390/2024-01-23#allox_id=0 which according to this it left on time?

That was on the 23rd. The OP travelled on the 22nd (the original post yesterday stated they'd travelled the previous day). According to Real Time Trains the train left at 17.43 1/2

 

[fandroid]

The fact that someone else got a Penalty Fare at roughly the same time suggests that they won't just "let you off" as that might be seen to be unfair. When the letter turns up it might be worthwhile mentioning that Penalty Fare, and asking that you be considered for a settlement of a similar amount

 

[gray1404]

That was on the 23rd. The OP travelled on the 22nd (the original post yesterday stated they'd travelled the previous day). According to Real Time Trains the train left at 17.43 1/2

Apologies. Post amended to show the correct the day before. If the OP could confirm exactly what time their ticket purchase was completed that would be great.

 

[Jack19w]

What time exactly did the ticket purchase take place? Please look at the confirmation email you received to ascertain this.

And was this the train you travelled on https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C18390/2024-01-22#allox_id=0

Thank you for sending the real time! I appreciate this as I was gaslighted by the inspector that the train departed on time, however it clearly shows it left at 17:43 (1/2). I bought the ticket at 17:44, within 30 seconds of boarding the train. I have evidence of this on my trainline app.

 

[Haywain]

I bought the ticket at 17:44, within 30 seconds of boarding the train. I have evidence of this on my trainline app.

So, you have evidence that you bought the ticket after the train departed? I'm afraid that is not going to help you.

 

[ainsworth74]

So, you have evidence that you bought the ticket after the train departed? I'm afraid that is not going to help you.

Certainly if TPE decide to pursue a prosecution. But I still wonder if it will be possible to persuade TPE to drop the matter on the basis that it seems from the sequence of events that there was no intent to avoid payment simply a bad case of timing.

If the OPs ticket had been inspected and the TIR issued immediately after joining then it would look quite strongly that the OP bought a ticket because they saw an inspector coming (whether or not that was the case). But as the OP states that there was a considerable period of time between joining the train, the purchase completing and the inspection it would appear that there is no intent to avoid the fare (how can there be if you didn't know you were about to be inspected?) therefore I would argue that a prosecution would be quite a harsh outcome even though TPE could do so and would be successful.

 

[tspaul26]

No advanced ticket. The problem was that it was bought after boarding.

As Warrington West has ticket selling facilities (booking office and ticket machines), you have technically committed a criminal offence under Railway Byelaw 18.

If you are prosecuted then you would probably want to look into a potential early guilty plea which would entitle you to a reduction in sentence.

The fact that you purchased a ticket immediately after boarding is also relevant mitigation in terms of sentence because it demonstrates that (a) you intended to pay (as opposed to leaving it until the ticket inspector appeared), (b) you did pay the fare for your journey and (c) your decision to board without paying was because a train happened to be in the platform which was earlier than the one you intended to catch.

Point (b) also means that no compensation should be awarded to the prosecution.

The fact that the train was slightly behind schedule is not in itself mitigation.

If you are prosecuted then a suitably drafted plea in mitigation may even enable you to get the sentence reduced to a discharge given the lack of material harm associated with your specific offending. A discharge would mean there would be no fine, but you may be asked to pay a victim surcharge and a contribution to the prosecution’s costs.

If you wish to try to head off a prosecution then - when the company writes to you - come back here and the forum will be able to assist you in writing a suitable letter of mitigation in order to seek to settle the matter prior to it reaching court.

The confusion arises from the OP saying they had a valid open return ticket. As it was purchased after boarding, it was of course not valid.

There is no authority for this assertion that a ticket purchased after boarding is not valid.

 

[Jack19w]

This was the letter I received.

So, you have evidence that you bought the ticket after the train departed? I'm afraid that is not going to help you.

I guess I’m just stunned that I can be threatened with prosecution for purchasing a ticket to a delayed train 30 seconds after it departs.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I guess I’m just stunned that I can be threatened with prosecution for purchasing a ticket to a delayed train 30 seconds after it departs.

In fairness, if you are expected to have a ticket before you board a train, then a dividing line between 'before' and 'after' boarding has to be drawn somewhere - and the point of boarding is a good place for the dividing line in that it's clear and hard to misunderstand.

In that way, it's rather like a red traffic light: you're in just as much trouble if you're caught driving through a light which has only just gone red as you are for going through one which has been red for ages.

 

[furlong]

I guess I’m just stunned that I can be threatened with prosecution for purchasing a ticket to a delayed train 30 seconds after it departs.

Yes - it's preposterous. However this is TPE and we know that over half of these types of reports get closed without any further action, so just write back with that in mind and they hope they use some common sense.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Yes - it's preposterous. However this is TPE and we know that over half of these types of reports get closed without any further action, so just write back with that in mind and they hope they use some common sense.

That’s true, and I would advise that the letter back emphasises that the time of purchase (particularly in relation to the time of inspection) clearly indicates that there was no intent to evade the fare.

I would also encourage the tone to steer clear of the indignation that has been apparent here - keep it positive, and emphasise that now you understand the rule you will ensure that you don’t make the same mistake again.

 

[Jack19w]

Dear TransPennine Express,

On 22nd January I was issued a ticket irregularity report when travelling from Warrington West station to Manchester Piccadilly. The reason for this is that I purchased a ticket after boarding the train.

I would like to emphasise that I had no intent of evading the fare, and did pay for my journey. I had initially planned to get a later train, however, when arriving at the station, a train to Manchester was still at the platform that I was anticipating to have already left. The train being the 17:42 to MAN was delayed 1.5 mins (Realtimetrains.co.uk) and departed at 17:43½.

I boarded this train, and at 17:44 purchased an open return ticket that could be used anytime off-peak. Approximately 15 minutes later, an inspector checked my ticket and issued a Ticket irregularity report as it was purchased after boarding. I explained my confusion as I thought the ticket could be used for travel anytime offpeak, and that the reason I had bought the ticket after boarding, was because it was no longer available to purchase on the trainline app, with the train departing the platform slightly later than anticipated.

I now understand the importance of purchasing a ticket before I board a train. I sincerely apologise for this and insist that I had no intent to avoid payment, this was rather a bad case of timing. I will not make this mistake again.

Thank you for your time and consideration.
Yours Sincerely,
Jack

I have drafted this, any opinions would be appreciated.

 

[Nym]

This was the letter I received.


I guess I’m just stunned that I can be threatened with prosecution for purchasing a ticket to a delayed train 30 seconds after it departs.

Wow TPE has taken us back in time to the mid 90s...

Context: North Humberside hasn't existed since 1996...