Ticket Machine at Alfreton will not sell cheaper Northern Rail Tickets

[Crooksie]

I travel from Alfreton to Nottingham and use the ticket office. If unavailable the ticket machine only sells the more expensive East Midland Train ticket even though I am using a Northern Rail service for my return journey. I have raised the issue and I was advised by a ticket collector I could buy a ticket on the train. I have done so routinely without issue on a number of occasions until my last journey when I was issued with a penalty fare. I appealed and the appeal was refused. Can anyone help or advise?

 

[Haywain]

When was the Penalty Fare issued, and who by (EMR or Northern)? You can appeal again and there are various reasons for appealing. When you say you raised the issue, who did you raise it with?

 

[Gaelan]

Am I correct in understanding that you typically travel out by an EMR service and back by a Northern service?

What precisely is written on the tickets that the ticket office normally issues you? In particular I'm curious about the type (e.g. "advance single", "off-peak day single", etc), the route (should be "any permitted" or "northern only"), and whether you're getting any tickets that say "excess" on them.

 

[LowLevel]

I frequently see Northern Only tickets issued by the machine at Alfreton so I'm quite surprised by that. Are you putting in the journey as pick A-Z arrival/departure station or are you using the quick pick on the home screen?

 

[Hadders]

If a TVM does not sell the ticket you require then a Penalty Fare should not be issue and you should submit an appeal.

It’s worth checking that the TVM definitely does not sell the ticket you wanted as sometimes where to find them isn’t always obvious.

 

[Haywain]

If the OP is only using a Northern train in one direction, it's not clear to me what combination of tickets would be cheaper than an 'Any Permitted" return ticket that the TVM will definitely be selling.

 

[Gaelan]

If the OP is only using a Northern train in one direction, it's not clear to me what combination of tickets would be cheaper than an 'Any Permitted" return ticket that the TVM will definitely be selling.

Could the ticket office sell a Northern return plus a change-of-route excess for the outbound (for half the difference in fare)? Hence my question to the OP.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is that actually possible? Can 'TOC specific' tickets normally ever be excessed to "route Any Permitted"?

 

[Haywain]

Could the ticket office sell a Northern return plus a change-of-route excess for the outbound (for half the difference in fare)? Hence my question to the OP.

TOC specific tickets can be excessed but always retain the operator restriction.

 

[Crooksie]

Many thanks for your interest and help. I travelled on Sunday 5 November from Alfreton to Nottingham return on Northern services both ways. I had been told on a previous occasion to buy a ticket on the train in these circumstances. Tickets are sold routinely on the train except when they are dangerously overcrowded and the ticket officer cannot move through the train. The penalty fare officer on the day thought I had grounds for appeal. She kindly checked other tickets purchased from the Alfreton machine and they were all the more expensive EMR tickets. The response to my appeal was dreadful. It failed to deal with my basic point and looked suspiciously cut and paste. I am fairly pragmatic and if people can confirm you can buy a Northern Rail ticket at the right price on the machine then I lose so I will have to pay the smallest fine and move on. I must have failed to find the right options on the machine on previous occasions and I have been misled by a Northern Rail operative. I feel hard done by but would have to put it down to experience.

 

[AlterEgo]

The penalty fare officer on the day thought I had grounds for appeal.

Then why did they issue the Penalty Fare? Is the question!

It would seem unusual but not unknown for a machine to just not sell a TOC specific ticket in these circumstances; clearly, they can be sold as @LowLevel says. However there may be other avenues of appeal. Can you upload a copy of your notice with your details redacted?

 

[RPI]

Looking at fares available, is the OP on about the "Northern Only" Anytime Day Single? Or some of the Northern Advance tickets? (The latter obviously wouldn't be available on train either)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Can't see an "EMR ticket" as such. Is the OP perhaps referring to the interavailable route "Any Permitted" ticket which could thus be used on both EMR and Northern services from Alfreton to or from Nottingham?

 

[WesternLancer]

Many thanks for your interest and help. I travelled on Sunday 5 November from Alfreton to Nottingham return on Northern services both ways. I had been told on a previous occasion to buy a ticket on the train in these circumstances. Tickets are sold routinely on the train except when they are dangerously overcrowded and the ticket officer cannot move through the train. The penalty fare officer on the day thought I had grounds for appeal. She kindly checked other tickets purchased from the Alfreton machine and they were all the more expensive EMR tickets. The response to my appeal was dreadful. It failed to deal with my basic point and looked suspiciously cut and paste. I am fairly pragmatic and if people can confirm you can buy a Northern Rail ticket at the right price on the machine then I lose so I will have to pay the smallest fine and move on. I must have failed to find the right options on the machine on previous occasions and I have been misled by a Northern Rail operative. I feel hard done by but would have to put it down to experience.

Would it not be of value to Appeal at stage 2 on the basis that the ticket desired for purchase (and state clearly what it is) is not offered for sale at the station / vending machine and on that basis you are permitted to buy on board and the Penalty Fare should be dismissed. It would be up it the train company that issued the Penalty Fare to show to the Appeal body that this was wrong and that you could have bought it.

Sounds to me like you have just had the usual Stage 1 Appeal fob off.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Do we have an Erewash Valley Line correspondent who could perhaps confirm things?

 

[WesternLancer]

Do we have an Erewash Valley Line correspondent who could perhaps confirm things?

Maybe @Crooksie could upload an image of an old ticket of the sort they can't get the machine to produce? If has one to hand of course. I think EMR tickets from other origin points can be chosen from any EMR TVM so that might allow someone to have a look for clues.

 

[JBuchananGB]

There seems to be a choice of Off-Peak Day return fares from Alfreton to Nottingham. "Any Permitted" £11.90 and "Northern Only" £9.00. The question is whether by any means the TVM can sell the latter.

 

[robbeech]

Then why did they issue the Penalty Fare? Is the question!

Looks good on their record. Nothing more, nothing less. Whether they genuinely think an appeal is likely to be successful or not is unlikely to be relevant.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

The penalty fare officer on the day thought I had grounds for appeal.

Are you certain the officer said grounds for appeal? When she issued the penalty fare, she was obliged by the regulations to advise you that you have the right to appeal and to explain how you can appeal.

The response to my appeal was dreadful. It failed to deal with my basic point and looked suspiciously cut and paste.

The regulations are quite specific about the 4 grounds on which an appeal may be made. If your appeal didn't say clearly which of those grounds you were raising, you may have got a standard rejection or as @WesternLancer describes it, "the usual Stage 1 Appeal fob off".

A Stage 2 appeal should be clear about the ground on which the appeal is made as well as the particulars as to why that ground is raised. If you post a draft of your Stage 2 appeal here, those with far more knowledge of the regulations than me will be able to advise you.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

There seems to be a choice of Off-Peak Day return fares from Alfreton to Nottingham. "Any Permitted" £11.90 and "Northern Only" £9.00. The question is whether by any means the TVM can sell the latter.

Wonder how many fares the Alfreton TVM can display, before certain additional fares can only be displayed on a second page?

 

[Skymonster]

I’ve not been to Alfreton but the EMR TVM at Derby will certainly sell the Northern-only fare from Alfreton to Nottingham

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Skymonster. Good sleuthing.

Do EMR TVMs also have a "popular journeys from this station" screen, or similar?

 

[Skymonster]

I can now confirm that the TVM at Alfreton does sell the “Northern only” tickets - because I’ve checked in person. However the home screen / quick tickets only displays the “Any Permitted” fare. To get the Northern fare one must select Nottingham using the A-Z destination finder.

 

[LowLevel]

I can now confirm that he TVM at Alfreton does sell the “Northern only” tickets - because I’ve checked in person. However the home screen / quick picks only displays the “Any Permitted” fare. To get the Northern fate one must select Nottingham using the A-Z destination finder (as per the screen shot in my previous reply).View attachment 147562

That's basically as I suspected then - you have to dig a bit into these older S&B machines to get the full range of fares.

 

[Crooksie]

Many thanks everyone. I will know better next time and put it down to experience. I am very impressed with this forum with so many people happy to help. Keep up the good work.

 

[WesternLancer]

This is v frustrating for @Crooksie as obv you need to 'explore' the machine before finding those additional options. Rather like the sit'n a few years ago where people were warned that ticket machines might not always offer the cheapest fare - tho it seems the machine does offer that - but of course not on the quick list of front page choices of destinations.

Frankly I think this is a case of it not being at all helpful that there is a different priced Northern Only fare at all - just confusing to ppl. Tho I realise that on today's railway the withdrawal of that will simply lead to a higher cost - not the reduction of the EMR 'Any Permitted'* fare to a cheaper rate.

* edited to correct my post

 

[LowLevel]

This is v frustrating for @Crooksie as obv you need to 'explore' the machine before finding those additional options. Rather like the sit'n a few years ago where people were warned that ticket machines might not always offer the cheapest fare - tho it seems the machine does offer that - but of course not on the quick list of front page choices of destinations.

Frankly I think this is a case of it not being at all helpful that there is a different priced Northern Only fare at all - just confusing to ppl. Tho I realise that on today's railway the withdrawal of that will simply lead to a higher cost - not the reduction of the EMR fare to a cheaper rate.

The EMR fare is not an EMR fare, it is the standard any permitted fare that has always been there.

The Northern fare is a slightly discounted one to allow them to keep all of it rather than take a minority share of the any permitted fare as can be found all over the network they serve, annoying passengers who don't understand it when ticket inspectors charge them more than they paid in the first place for not reading and understanding the small print.

If you want to see a demonstration catch any train on a Saturday between Manchester and Liverpool where anywhere North of 20% of the passengers on board a busy train (I think my record was over 50 out of 130 passengers I got through before I stopped counting) will be misusing Northern Only tickets whether they be advance, off peak or anytime, whether intentionally or through failing to understand what it is they've bought.

What to do? Indulge in some bashing of naive tourists from Manchester Airport? Spend ages trying to explain and extract money from one person whilst ignoring the rest? Just not bother checking tickets between Manchester and Liverpool is the most popular option.

The system is utter rubbish.

 

[WesternLancer]

The EMR fare is not an EMR fare, it is the standard any permitted fare that has always been there.

The Northern fare is a slightly discounted one to allow them to keep all of it rather than take a minority share of the any permitted fare as can be found all over the network they serve, annoying passengers who don't understand it when ticket inspectors charge them more than they paid in the first place for not reading and understanding the small print.

Thanks @LowLevel - of course you are correct - I should have taken more care in my post!

 

[ChrisC]

I don‘t use the ticket machine at Alfreton very often as if I haven’t purchased my ticket online I prefer to use the ticket office. I’ve always found the staff there very friendly and helpful. Unless it’s changed and some shade has been provided, I’ve sometimes found the machine very difficult to use in sunny weather when the sun is shining onto the screen. It’s situated outside of the station building at the edge of the short stay car park. The machine faces south and it’s difficult to see the screen to even purchase basic tickets so having to search for something more complex wouldn’t be easy on a sunny day.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

This is v frustrating for @Crooksie as obv you need to 'explore' the machine before finding those additional options.

I agree that as the machine does appear to offer the Northern Only fare, @Crooksie having grounds for further appeal will be limited to technicalities of procedure and signage. But it's also worth noting that Crooksie was a well informed customer, as they had previously purchased the Northern Only ticket at the ticket office, yet was unable to easily find it on the machine. A less well informed customer may not even bother to search beyond the 'Any Permitted' ticket. A journey planner based machine may have revealed the cheaper fare more readily, though that approach leads to different issues.