Ticket office closures and penalty fares

[Haywain]

My mistake - Leeds to Harrogate. Why would Northern need to compete? They are doing themselves out of revenue here, unless the competition is with the buses. The ORCTAS split on that route is so overwhelmingly in favour of Northern it makes no sense.

I think with LNER running to Harrogate every two hours it is enough to make sense as everyone who buys an LNER Advance is a loss of revenue to Northern.

 

[Deerfold]

I think with LNER running to Harrogate running to Harrogate every two hours it is enough to make sense as everyone who buys an LNER Advance is a loss of revenue to Northern.

That's one of the few pairs with Northern advances that does make sense, yes.

And all the ones with no competition?

 

[Haywain]

And all the ones with no competition?

I'm not arguing for or against them. Like you, I would use them if they benefit me and if not having them means a notable increase in price I wouldn't be happy. The Leeds to Harrogate ticket in the other thread as under 50% of the walk-up fare, so it's a significant saving.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm not arguing for or against them. Like you, I would use them if they benefit me and if not having them means a notable increase in price I wouldn't be happy. The Leeds to Harrogate ticket in the other thread as under 50% of the walk-up fare, so it's a significant saving.

I'm not sure which other thread you're referring to.

You were arguing as to why they existed, but made no comment when I asked why a Burley Park to Leeds existed.

Which probably explains why Burley Park to Harrogate doesn't have an Advance fare, which is what you appear to be arguing for. Leeds to Harrogate, however, has competition with LNER and had Advance fares.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not sure which other thread you're referring to.

He's talking about the one I linked from Disputes. The fare is Leeds to Harrogate, not from Burley Park (which is where the poster got on):

Penalty Fare Notice - Burley Park to Harrogate Return

My son was issued with a Penalty Fare Notice this morning travelling from Burley Park to Harrogate - from what he says he had bought a Leeds to Harrogate Advance Single (£2.90 with Railcard - I assume he was going to get the same fare back later today) but boarded at Burley Park. Burley Park is...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

You were arguing as to why they existed, but made no comment when I asked why a Burley Park to Leeds existed.

I was simply pointing out that no Advance existed for Burley Park to Harrogate and that competition exists between Leeds and Harrogate. I did so because it has been suggested that no Advance should exist where there is not competition.

 

[MikeWM]

I think the advice of asking to be let through the barriers, and asking to buy the ticket from a guard before boarding, is certainly pragmatic. The problem you have is that this doesn't really work for services without a guard/OBM etc., such as GN/TL-branded ones.

Ultimately, you always have to consider it from the viewpoint of "what would I point to, to justify buying my ticket onboard the train". If there are ticket buying facilities but they don't sell the ticket you want, and you don't have individual permission from the operator (or more generally, such as in the NRCoT or from a station sign or operator policy) to buy onboard, it's going to be difficult to justify any appeal/defence.

It's clearly not an ideal situation but simply boarding without permission is inadvisable, in my view.

I agree on the last point, which is why I've been very reluctant to do so. So far I haven't tried, instead either changing my plans on the fly (hardly ideal!) or buying a ticket to my first destination and then trying to exchange there, which works fine (for now) if the first destination is Cambridge because the ticket office there is always excellent.

But as you say, it isn't an ideal situation at all, not least because it is increasingly clear that there isn't a 'correct' answer. It could be fixed easily enough by signage at the station explaining what they want the official policy to be - they have enough signage at the stations telling you how you must buy a ticket, I don't see why they couldn't add signage telling you what to do if you can't - but I don't suppose I should expect that to happen any time soon.

If Ely ticket office does indeed close, and the TVMs aren't updated, I guess that will be the end of me buying Anglia Plus tickets then. Which will be quite a shame, as they are useful and encourage travel. As with many other recent changes (eg. the imminent withdrawal of Travelcards), the result is that I'll end up giving less money to the railway.

 

[Deerfold]

I was simply pointing out that no Advance existed for Burley Park to Harrogate and that competition exists between Leeds and Harrogate. I did so because it has been suggested that no Advance should exist where there is not competition.

I don't think anyone claimed there were no station pairs without advances. But there are plenty with advances but no competition.

 

[Haywain]

I don't think anyone claimed there were no station pairs without advances. But there are plenty with advances but no competition.

I was commenting on a specific situation, not about "claims".

 

[Deerfold]

I was commenting on a specific situation, not about "claims".

Ok, "suggestions" if that's your preferred term.

 

[sheff1]

Surely most of their routes with advances are run entirely or almost entirely by Northern?

I haven't done a network-wide check, but with various routes from Sheffield where Northern offer Advances that is certainly not the case.

Ultimately, you always have to consider it from the viewpoint of "what would I point to, to justify buying my ticket onboard the train". If there are ticket buying facilities but they don't sell the ticket you want, and you don't have individual permission from the operator (or more generally, such as in the NRCoT or from a station sign or operator policy) to buy onboard, it's going to be difficult to justify any appeal/defence.

The Travel South Yorkshire site states:
Older persons concessionary pass holders are able to additionally travel on trains within South Yorkshire for a half fare (single or day return journeys) between 9.30am and 11pm Monday to Friday and at any time at weekends and on Bank Holidays.

A pity is says "are able to" rather than the stronger "entitles you to" used when talking about free bus travel, but I would still be happy to use this 'defence' if challenged.

 

[Krokodil]

I think with LNER running to Harrogate every two hours it is enough to make sense as everyone who buys an LNER Advance is a loss of revenue to Northern.

Yet with both operated by OLR, the money ends up in the same place eventually anyway.

 

[Haywain]

Yet with both operated by OLR, the money ends up in the same place eventually anyway.

It ends up in the same place regardless of who is running the services (other than open access operators).

 

[Krokodil]

Indeed, it does now all end up in the Treasury which makes all of this ORCATS-dodging pointless. All it achieves is a system more confusing for the passenger, often resulting in them being charged twice.

Surely in the age of smart ticketing it should be possible to attribute the income from most flexible tickets to a particular service, either using scan data, or - if not scanned on a particular leg - by interpolating barrier scans and scans from other legs. Anything that can't be attributed (including CCSTs) would go through ORCATS in the usual way.

 

[Starmill]

By and large Northern shouldn’t need to yield manage its loadings

They don't use them in that way anyway. In ghe day, generally the same number will be available on near empty trains as on ones about half full. Usually at just one or two price points.

 

[Deerfold]

I haven't done a network-wide check, but with various routes from Sheffield where Northern offer Advances that is certainly not the case.

Just on a quick look coming into Sheffield from the North, I can see advance tickets but no competition:

• 
  Huddersfield to Sheffield
  Lockwood to Sheffield
  Berry Brow to Sheffield
  Honley to Sheffield
  Brockholes to Sheffield
  Stocksmoor to Sheffield
  Shepley to Sheffield
  Denby Dale to Sheffield
  Barnsley to Sheffield
  Penistone to Sheffield
  Silkstone Common to Sheffield
  Dodworth to Sheffield
  Dalton to Sheffield
  Normanton to Sheffield
  Woodlesford to Sheffield
  Outwood to Sheffield
  Wombwell to Sheffield
  Elsecar to Sheffield
  Chapeltown to Sheffield
  Rotherham Central to Sheffield
  and many more between Leeds and Rotherham

Coming in on those lines, there only seems to be competition from Leeds and Wakefield.

The Travel South Yorkshire site states:
Older persons concessionary pass holders are able to additionally travel on trains within South Yorkshire for a half fare (single or day return journeys) between 9.30am and 11pm Monday to Friday and at any time at weekends and on Bank Holidays.

A pity is says "are able to" rather than the stronger "entitles you to" used when talking about free bus travel, but I would still be happy to use this 'defence' if challenged.

Are these not available from TVMs? The West Yorkshire equivalent are (and even used to be pushed on those who hadn't asked for them when they were first put on).

 

[Aaron1]

At Grimsby Town station both TVMs were out of use yesterday, when this happens again once all ticket offices are closed down we could see many many penalty fares given to innocent travellers, its alright saying the conductors and RPI's would automatically know of TVMs are faulty but that is relying on communication to be good, and that's not always the case!

 

[scrapy]

Just on a quick look coming into Sheffield from the North, I can see advance tickets but no competition:

• 
  Huddersfield to Sheffield
  Lockwood to Sheffield
  Berry Brow to Sheffield
  Honley to Sheffield
  Brockholes to Sheffield
  Stocksmoor to Sheffield
  Shepley to Sheffield
  Denby Dale to Sheffield
  Barnsley to Sheffield
  Penistone to Sheffield
  Silkstone Common to Sheffield
  Dodworth to Sheffield
  Dalton to Sheffield
  Normanton to Sheffield
  Woodlesford to Sheffield
  Outwood to Sheffield
  Wombwell to Sheffield
  Elsecar to Sheffield
  Chapeltown to Sheffield
  Rotherham Central to Sheffield
  and many more between Leeds and Rotherham

Coming in on those lines, there only seems to be competition from Leeds and Wakefield.

Through ORCATS Transpennine actually get a chunk of the fare on anytime and off peak tickets as they also operate between Meadowhall and Sheffield, even though it's unlikely many people actually change trains and use their services. The retailer also gets commission. On advances Northern get the full fare minus any commission paid to the retailer (which is less than for off-peak/anytime).

Under the RSP Northern are not allowed to offer 'Northern only' off peak or anytime on these tickets as they are the fare setter for the 'any permitted' flow.

 

[Deerfold]

Through ORCATS Transpennine actually get a chunk of the fare on anytime and off peak tickets as they also operate between Meadowhall and Sheffield, even though it's unlikely many people actually change trains and use their services. The retailer also gets commission. On advances Northern get the full fare minus any commission paid to the retailer (which is less than for off-peak/anytime).

Under the RSP Northern are not allowed to offer 'Northern only' off peak or anytime on these tickets as they are the fare setter for the 'any permitted' flow.

I think it's unlikely TPE are getting more than half the through fare from other stations. I deliberately missed Meadowhall from my list as I realised there's competition there, but forgot to include it in my list of places there will be competition from (I'm not sure that actually there's competition between Leeds/Wakefield and Sheffield).

 

[sheff1]

Are these not available from TVMs?

They never used to be available from the TVMs at Doncaster - I think that might have changed now.
Definitely not available at Sheffield - not a problem whilst the booking office is still there, but reduction in opening hours is already proposed presumably as a first step to closure.

(I'm not sure that actually there's competition between Leeds/Wakefield and Sheffield).

A number of people I know use the Northern semi-fasts in preference to Cross Country.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Northern have removed Advance ticket sales on the day of travel from Ticket Offices, the next step is TVMs not sure if this has already taken place or not.