Ticketing challenge

[JBuchananGB]

Ticketing challenge: My daughter has challenged me to propose the best tickets/trains for her journey with the following itinerary:

Tuesday 11 July: Stafford to Birmingham, arrive before 9am. Birmingham to Exeter, depart after 1pm (e.g. 13.12)
Wednesday 12 July: Exeter to Digby & Sowton at 8.30am. Digby & Sowton to Stafford depart 4.30pm (e.g. 16.43)

I have tried feeding this into trainsplit (on the forum), using break of journey at Birmingham with 240 minute change time. Couldn't get anything meaningful out. Tried it again with Exeter as the destination, returning from there at 17.27 which is the connection appropriate to leaving Digby at 16.43, and there is a solution, which interestingly includes an Advance Single from Wolverhampton to Cheltenham Spa. I'm not sure how that accommodates the stopover in Birmingham.

 

[Adam Williams]

Can you copy the search results addresses for the queries you tried?

Click the small link icon:

 

[JBuchananGB]

Here is the link for Stafford to Exeter, straightforward parameters:

RailUK Tickets, powered by Trainsplit

The Split Ticketing Champions - Compare Fares and Get the Best Value For Money Through Split Tickets and Booking Cheap Train Tickets Online And On Our Mobile App, Etickets To Your Phone, No Booking Fee, Save Up To 90%

tickets.railforums.co.uk

It did not include the 17.27 return from Exeter, only the 18.26, and if you looked earlier, missed the 17.27 out completely.
The outbound trains includes a change at Wolverhampton, which is daft when you are already on a train which goes to Birmingham, and how can an Advance Single Wolverhampton to Cheltenham Spa be used for a 4 hour break of journey in Birmingham?

Changing nothing but the destination from Exeter to Digby, and the return time to 16.30 produces:

RailUK Tickets, powered by Trainsplit

The Split Ticketing Champions - Compare Fares and Get the Best Value For Money Through Split Tickets and Booking Cheap Train Tickets Online And On Our Mobile App, Etickets To Your Phone, No Booking Fee, Save Up To 90%

tickets.railforums.co.uk

Also refuse to include the 17.27 connection at Exeter. Also change of train at Wolverhampton on the outbound. At least this time it didn't propose an Advance ticket from Wolverhampton to Cheltenham.

 

[Adam Williams]

Those links haven't been copied correctly. If you don't click the link icon and wait for the green checkmark, you won't get a perma-link to the search

 

[JBuchananGB]

Here's the Digby one

Stafford > Digby & Sowton - Search Results | RailUK Tickets

The Split Ticketing Champions - Compare Fares and Get the Best Value For Money Through Split Tickets and Booking Cheap Train Tickets Online And On Our Mobile App, Etickets To Your Phone, No Booking Fee, Save Up To 90%

tickets.railforums.co.uk

Here's the Exeter one

Stafford > Exeter St Davids - Search Results | RailUK Tickets

The Split Ticketing Champions - Compare Fares and Get the Best Value For Money Through Split Tickets and Booking Cheap Train Tickets Online And On Our Mobile App, Etickets To Your Phone, No Booking Fee, Save Up To 90%

tickets.railforums.co.uk

 

[MrJeeves]

how can an Advance Single Wolverhampton to Cheltenham Spa be used for a 4 hour break of journey in Birmingham?

I would assume the Wolverhampton to Birmingham New Street portion is unreserved and just a connection to the reserved Birmingham New Street to Cheltenham Spa CrossCountry Advance portion.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The requested itinerary has a 4 hour stopover in Birmingham. AFAIK it is not possible to have an Advance ticket, as in this case Wolverhampton to Cheltenham, with a break of 4 hours at an intermediate station.

 

[Adam Williams]

AFAIK it is not possible to have an Advance ticket, as in this case Wolverhampton to Cheltenham, with a break of 4 hours at an intermediate station.

What would make this prohibited?

It's not a break of journey; the journey planner is correctly offering you with a reservation for this ticket (as well as the Cheltenham Spa to Bristol Temple Meads ticket) on the CrossCountry train that it has suggested as part of your itinerary.

There's nothing in the advance terms and conditions to say that the (connecting) trains used need to be the first ones available, only that the ticket is only valid on booked services and the minimum connection times must be observed. Well, these are booked services. It just so happens that the journey planner gives you control over which specific booked services to use with your Advance tickets.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The itinerary is showing Wolverhampton to Birmingham on the 08.33 from Wolverhampton, and then Birmingham to Exeter departing Birmingham at 13.12 on on Advance Single ticket. I think I understand what the algorithm has done. It is treating as a change of trains. Would it issue two seat reservations, one on each train?

She set me the challenge having figured a solution out for herself
11 July: dep Stafford 08.00 arr Birmingham 08.36. Dep 13.12 arr Exeter (EXD) 15.44.
12 July: dep EXD 08.17, arr Digby 08.30. dep Digby 16.43, dep Exeter 17.27, dep Birmingham 20.34, arr Stafford 21.10
Ticketing:
Anytime Single Stafford to Birmingham. £12.60
Off-peak return Stafford to Digby. (Outbound: Start late at Birmingham, finish short at Exeter) £122
Anytime Single Exeter to Digby (or get a lift with a friend)
She tells me she has a reservation on the 16.12 departure from Birmingham on the outward, and is planning on catching the 13.12, breaking her journey at Bristol, then joining the train on which she has the reservation for the last bit to Exeter.

 

[Adam Williams]

Would it issue two seat reservations, one on each train?

It would certainly try, yes. It may not always be possible; and sometimes only a counted place reservation may be available.

Off-peak return Stafford to Digby. (Outbound: Start late at Birmingham, finish short at Exeter)

There are often good savings to be made by exploiting break of journey in this fashion and starting/finishing short, but generally these are not ones that an accredited online retailer can suggest to the public

 

[JBuchananGB]

On the proposal by the journey planner to issue an advance ticket with a 4 hour stopover en route, it is just so totally drummed into us that with an advance ticket no break of journey is allowed, that such a combination seems wild. With a 4 hour stopover, obviously the passenger is intending to leave the station, make productive use of their time etc. and return. Hopefully the ticket barriers would allow that. I have understood the algorithm. Wolverhampton to Birmingham is on a CrossCountry train en route from Manchester to Bournemouth, and Birmingham to Cheltenham is on a train from York to Plymouth, so a change of trains at Birmingham is needed, and planning to spend over 4 hours there does not contravene the rules of the advance ticket! Just as my daughter used her brain to combine an off-peak return with an anytime single to get a decent fare for the journey, and the journey planners wouldn't be able to dream that up, so not even the most inspired traveller would have dreamt up to book an advance ticket incorporating a change of trains lasting over 4 hours!

 

[yorkie]

On the proposal by the journey planner to issue an advance ticket with a 4 hour stopover en route, it is just so totally drummed into us that with an advance ticket no break of journey is allowed, that such a combination seems wild. With a 4 hour stopover, obviously the passenger is intending to leave the station, make productive use of their time etc. and return. Hopefully the ticket barriers would allow that. I have understood the algorithm. Wolverhampton to Birmingham is on a CrossCountry train en route from Manchester to Bournemouth, and Birmingham to Cheltenham is on a train from York to Plymouth, so a change of trains at Birmingham is needed, and planning to spend over 4 hours there does not contravene the rules of the advance ticket! Just as my daughter used her brain to combine an off-peak return with an anytime single to get a decent fare for the journey, and the journey planners wouldn't be able to dream that up, so not even the most inspired traveller would have dreamt up to book an advance ticket incorporating a change of trains lasting over 4 hours!

I do not agree that a computer can be expected to determine what is considered 'reasonable' or 'expected' behaviour by humans.

Please note that if you chose to have a meal within Birmingham New Street station (there are places within the station where you can do this), this does not constitute a break of journey, under the Conditions of Travel.

What you are saying is that we should be limiting the 'additional interchange' time, yes?

If you want the flexibility to break your journey, you either need to choose 'flexible' or you need to book to and from your break point as separate journey enquiries; this is surely the customers responsibility, I would say.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I was originally involved in writing the journey planner that TrainSplit uses; it was always on my long-term to-do list to have an extra option for via points to say "I want to break my journey here" - this would then constrain the system to come up with a ticket combination that allowed break of journey at that station. Unfortunately never got round to it; in any case the business model meant we would not have got any extra revenue from adding such a useful feature!

 

[JBuchananGB]

My daughter wondered whether she could have done better for her itinerary than the solution she came up with herself. Her own solution was very neat, and quite economical. The forum's journey planner came up with an ingenious solution to incorporate the over 4 hour stopover in Birmingham, i.e. an advance through ticket with a change of trains. I am not suggesting that extended interchange times should not be allowed. This would have suited my daughter, who will (journey is tomorrow) leave the station, attend her office in Birmingham, participate in a training course, and then return to the station, to continue her journey to Exeter. The tickets she has (Anytime Single Stafford to Birmingham, and Off-Peak Return Stafford to Digby) are entirely valid for that.
She hasn't decided yet whether to break her journey in Bristol for 3 hours as well. Her employer has an office there which she could visit.