Time to end competition on buses due to pandemic?

[upasalmon]

With the COVID19 pandemic affecting travel patterns and restricting movements surely now is the time to bin the 1985 Transport Act?

With the COVID19 pandemic affecting travel patterns and restricting movements surely now is the time to bin the 1985 Transport Act?

While city bus wars have eased some city bus routes have massive duplication as a legacy of these pointless battles. Take Manchester, where Stagecoach and Magicbus compete for student custom, even with partial lockdown restricting travel. Now would be an opportunity to eliminate this excess without driver redundancies.

Take Liverpool for example, along with surrounding areas. Here is what should happen.
.
ARRIVA to give up routes 14 and 18 to Stagecoach (their depot is close by Gillmoss for Croxteth/Park.

Green Lane depot to take over routes 62 and 76 from Bootle and Speke The 76 would be fed by an 81H from Old Swan to Halewood.

Bootle takes over full operation of the Crosby 53 from joint working.

Speke takes over full control of 82 and 86. 86 to avoid Liverpool South Parkway, to run toGarston between 86A Airport journeys.

Stagecoach to retain 86C Childwall service.

 

[WM Bus]

How would that work on a route such as the Birmingham 55 and 94 where Claribels run a less frequent 94 route every 18 minutes using single decks. Whereas NX as the main operator in the area run every 4 minutes with double deckers on the 55 and 94 combined and every 8 minutes each if you end competition.

Or 16 where NX route route uses double decker buses every 6 minutes and Diamond use smaller buses every 10 minutes with an extension to West Bromwich?

 

[Rail Ranger]

I agree with your broad thrust. To make a comparison with the railways, rail franchising has now ended to be replaced by concessions. For infomation Magicbus is a low-cost operation by Stagecoach Manchester.

 

[upasalmon]

These changes mean Stagecoach would no. longer have large numbers of buses running empty across the city, although some would need to continue for 86C and 204.

Joint service 10A Liverpool to St Helens would remain so with Mon-Sat daytime, 10 minute frequency, Sunday daytime 15 minute frequency, and evenings 20 minute frequency.

If there is a staff shortage this plan is to tailor services accordingly.

smaller

I can't really comment on the Birmingham situation other than thank goodness the free market zealots didn't split up TWM as it was. I am really talking about the Liverpool 82/86 routes and the Manchester 42/43/142/143 which are over bussed and my suggestion still has quite a frequent lservice on the 82/86.

If fewer people are travelling, or advised not to travel it is pointless having the likes of Magicbus which was put in place at a time of insane competition. If there is a driver shortage and a social distancing requirement then the core Stagecoach service should be prioritised.

 

[Daniel740]

With the COVID19 pandemic affecting travel patterns and restricting movements surely now is the time to bin the 1985 Transport Act?


While city bus wars have eased some city bus routes have massive duplication as a legacy of these pointless battles. Take Manchester, where Stagecoach and Magicbus compete for student custom, even with partial lockdown restricting travel. Now would be an opportunity to eliminate this excess without driver redundancies.

Take Liverpool for example, along with surrounding areas. Here is what should happen.
.
ARRIVA to give up routes 14 and 18 to Stagecoach (their depot is close by Gillmoss for Croxteth/Park.

Green Lane depot to take over routes 62 and 76 from Bootle and Speke The 76 would be fed by an 81H from Old Swan to Halewood.

Bootle takes over full operation of the Crosby 53 from joint working.

Speke takes over full control of 82 and 86. 86 to avoid Liverpool South Parkway, to run toGarston between 86A Airport journeys.

Stagecoach to retain 86C Childwall service.

Magicbus and Stagecoach Manchester aren’t competing as they are the same company. Let me tell you, as someone who studied in Manchester there would be a lot of uproar if Stagecoach withdrew the Magicbus routes!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Magicbus and Stagecoach Manchester aren’t competing as they are the same company. Let me tell you, as someone who studied in Manchester there would be a lot of uproar if Stagecoach withdrew the Magicbus routes!

Magic Bus is basically a "third class" service at a lower price. It was originally conceived as a way of running competitors off the road, but turned out to be profitable in its own right on that route.

Go-Ahead I think is the competitor these days? Or did they bin the Oxford Road services when they took over from First?

 

[Daniel740]

Magic Bus is basically a "third class" service at a lower price. It was originally conceived as a way of running competitors off the road, but turned out to be profitable in its own right on that route.

Go-Ahead I think is the competitor these days? Or did they bin the Oxford Road services when they took over from First?

Go-Ahead runs one route (the 41) down the Oxford Road, which runs every 15 minutes during the day and hourly at night, so not really competition.
Back in the days when Finglands ran it there really was competition, I remember there were times when drivers would deliberately block buses from other companies and even on one occasion a Finglands bus I was on and a red bus ( I think GM North?) were literally racing down the Oxford Road picking up customers!

 

[upasalmon]

I'm well aware of Magicbus being part of Stagecoach! I am not advocating cuts in services but in the current pandemic buses are better coordinated rather than over layering of high frequency routes. And fewer people are travelling, or allowed on buses. In Liverpool a frequent term time route 699 from the university to the Halls Of Residence has been reduced to a 30 minute frequency. I'm sure that if the Magicbuses came off in Manchester perhaps the Stagecoach service could be increased to cope. But bear in mind the 699 uni service has been reduced due to driver shortage, and the airport 500 and Liverpool-Rouncorn X1 has had to pass to other operators

 

[peterblue]

There was UK north which competed along Wilmslow Road to Didsbury etc and also down the A6 to Stockport. They were cowboys - thank goodness they're not around anymore.

 

[AB93]

With the COVID19 pandemic affecting travel patterns and restricting movements surely now is the time to bin the 1985 Transport Act?
While city bus wars have eased some city bus routes have massive duplication as a legacy of these pointless battles. Take Manchester, where Stagecoach and Magicbus compete for student custom, even with partial lockdown restricting travel. Now would be an opportunity to eliminate this excess without driver redundancies.

How does this not involve driver redundancies?

 

[Daniel740]

I'm well aware of Magicbus being part of Stagecoach! I am not advocating cuts in services but in the current pandemic buses are better coordinated rather than over layering of high frequency routes. And fewer people are travelling, or allowed on buses. In Liverpool a frequent term time route 699 from the university to the Halls Of Residence has been reduced to a 30 minute frequency. I'm sure that if the Magicbuses came off in Manchester perhaps the Stagecoach service could be increased to cope. But bear in mind the 699 uni service has been reduced due to driver shortage, and the airport 500 and Liverpool-Rouncorn X1 has had to pass to other operators

But what about the cheap fares? Stagecoach fares tend to be quite high whereas Magicbus fares are amongst the lowest in the U.K., probably even lower than London. How much is a Magicbus weekly ticket these days? 7/8 quid?

 

[Deerfold]

With the COVID19 pandemic affecting travel patterns and restricting movements surely now is the time to bin the 1985 Transport Act?


While city bus wars have eased some city bus routes have massive duplication as a legacy of these pointless battles. Take Manchester, where Stagecoach and Magicbus compete for student custom, even with partial lockdown restricting travel. Now would be an opportunity to eliminate this excess without driver redundancies.

You can't just get rid of it.
What do you replace it with?
How do you decide who gets to run which route?
You've made some suggestions, but it's not clear how you've decided those.

What about people who will have to buy tickets from 2 different companies who currently just buy from 1?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But what about the cheap fares? Stagecoach fares tend to be quite high whereas Magicbus fares are amongst the lowest in the U.K., probably even lower than London. How much is a Magicbus weekly ticket these days? 7/8 quid?

That's to appeal to the student market. If they weren't profitable (at least in normal circumstances[1]) they wouldn't run.

[1] I seem to recall at present some sort of "enhanced BSOG" is in place to fund operation with lower loadings - can anyone clarify?

You can't just get rid of it.

In practice it's barely there anyway - it's a handful of routes across the whole country that have actual on-street competition - and even on Oxford Road, which is the classic, it is much reduced from what it was.

 

[upasalmon]

The Go Ahead NW 41 is not what I had in mind as it's not a high frequency route . But is competition really needed when (disgracefully) people are being advised not to use public transport and buses can only carry half capacity due to social distancing? It's not about filling buses any more (for the duration) anyway

 

[Daniel740]

The Go Ahead NW 41 is not what I had in mind as it's not a high frequency route . But is competition really needed when (disgracefully) people are being advised not to use public transport and buses can only carry half capacity due to social distancing? It's not about filling buses any more (for the duration) anyway

As long as Stagecoach keep the cheap fares for the 42/43 then fine, axe Magicbus, but I doubt they would...

 

[peterblue]

You also can't avoid competition altogether, it's near-impossible. For example, imagine a busy road radiating out of a city served by 3 routes: you'll have Local Route 1 to an estate via the main road, Local Route 2 to another estate via the main road, and Express X50 to some other town.

This 'competition' across a common stretch of route is completely unavoidable unless you suggest to nationalise everything again.

 

[upasalmon]

Deerfield - What we do is freeze the current route pattern and only allow those operators who can prove they can run vehicles no older than 7 years old, have adequate maintenance facilities, adequate staff/funds to run services and replace 7% of their fleet per year. Cross subsidy to be legalised and those with inadequate standards BARRED
Effectively casting Mr Ridley to the used ticket box of history.

 

[Daniel740]

Also the OP mentions Liverpool, but isn’t it the case that on the routes that he/she mentions you can use one companies ticket on another’s bus on common sections of the route under the Quality Partnership?

 

[peterblue]

Also the OP mentions Liverpool, but isn’t it the case that on the routes that he/she mention you can use one companies ticket on another’s bus on common sections of the route under the Quality Partnership?

I think so.

 

[upasalmon]

Peter blue -' What Mr Ridley didn't get was buses compete with cars, taxis and rail. I'm not criticising bus routes having common sections with other route. What I dislike is LAYER upon LAYER of frequent bus routes, no longer because of current bus wars but the legacy of past ones

 

[Bletchleyite]

Peter blue -' What Mr Ridley didn't get was buses compete with cars, taxis and rail. I'm not criticising bus routes having common sections with other route. What I dislike is LAYER upon LAYER of frequent bus routes, no longer because of current bus wars but the legacy of past ones

Where is that the case, though, where it's not just for operational convenience, e.g. where two main bus companies operate in a city (Manchester is a good example) and some of the services just happen to overlap? Do you have any examples?

For instance in MK there are a few operators (Arriva commercial, Stagecoach X5 and 99 commercial and the tendered services mostly done by the various small Aylesbury family-owned operators), and they do overlap a bit, but they aren't really competing per-se, they aren't really interested in each others' business, where they overlap it's just because the same road happens to suit their purposes. I'd figure that's the most common situation?

 

[upasalmon]

As for the Quality Partnership it's implementation on Merseyside has been a joke. Merseytravel have their own tickets anyway, and the only problem area would be Muirhead Avenue in West Derby where the 18 (when/if taken over by Stagecoach) and ARRIVA 62 run in parallel.

 

[gnolife]

As long as Stagecoach keep the cheap fares for the 42/43 then fine, axe Magicbus, but I doubt they would...

And screw you if you need to travel beyond East/West Didsbury? It's already bad enough trying to get an Airport bound 43 if you're boarding anywhere between Oxford Rd Station and Owens Park with the 142 and 143 relieving it.

 

[Deerfold]

Deerfield - What we do is freeze the current route pattern and only allow those operators who can prove they can run vehicles no older than 7 years old, have adequate maintenance facilities, adequate staff/funds to run services and replace 7% of their fleet per year.

And if no operator can prove that? Lose the route?

You'd have to replace an average of 14% of the fleet every year to have no vehicle over 7 years old.

 

[carlberry]

Deerfield - What we do is freeze the current route pattern and only allow those operators who can prove they can run vehicles no older than 7 years old, have adequate maintenance facilities, adequate staff/funds to run services and replace 7% of their fleet per year. Cross subsidy to be legalised and those with inadequate standards BARRED
Effectively casting Mr Ridley to the used ticket box of history.

The current setup already achieves most of that everywhere and allows local authorities to require higher standards for quality partnerships which covers everything you've listed.

 

[AB93]

Deerfield - What we do is freeze the current route pattern and only allow those operators who can prove they can run vehicles no older than 7 years old, have adequate maintenance facilities, adequate staff/funds to run services and replace 7% of their fleet per year. Cross subsidy to be legalised and those with inadequate standards BARRED
Effectively casting Mr Ridley to the used ticket box of history.

Even TfL don't expect all buses to be 7 years old or younger. This is just madness.

 

[carlberry]

With the COVID19 pandemic affecting travel patterns and restricting movements surely now is the time to bin the 1985 Transport Act?


While city bus wars have eased some city bus routes have massive duplication as a legacy of these pointless battles. Take Manchester, where Stagecoach and Magicbus compete for student custom, even with partial lockdown restricting travel. Now would be an opportunity to eliminate this excess without driver redundancies.

Take Liverpool for example, along with surrounding areas. Here is what should happen.
.
ARRIVA to give up routes 14 and 18 to Stagecoach (their depot is close by Gillmoss for Croxteth/Park.

Green Lane depot to take over routes 62 and 76 from Bootle and Speke The 76 would be fed by an 81H from Old Swan to Halewood.

Bootle takes over full operation of the Crosby 53 from joint working.

Speke takes over full control of 82 and 86. 86 to avoid Liverpool South Parkway, to run toGarston between 86A Airport journeys.

Stagecoach to retain 86C Childwall service.

I'm not sure what you're aiming to achieve. The Stagecoach/Magicbus is just two different services, if there weren't required now then Stagecoach would have consolidated them already. The Liverpool examples appear to be operational issues which just makes thing slightly tidier. It's the kind of thing a local authority could negotiate between companies if they really felt it was worthwhile. The pandemic is going to have a massive effect on public transport which will play out once the current subsidy stops, which is likely to mean the limited competition that exists at the moment will just naturally die out.

 

[Busaholic]

A sledgehammer to crack a nut is entirely unnecessary at the present time imo. The idea of the Competition and Markets Authority getting involved because Stagecoach and Arriva, or First and Go-Ahead, appear to be colluding to ensure their immediate survival should be entirely out of the question, though in these extraordinary times who now knows? The Welsh government, for example, might consider it an existentialist threat, but then we now have politicians of the lowest calibre in all political parties and administrations to our immediate cost. Just 'go ahead'would be my message to those bus companies and ask, in the event of a feeble squawk from the authorities, 'so what do you intend to do about it?' to which the realistic answer will be 'precious little.'

 

[Qwerty133]

And if no operator can prove that? Lose the route?

You'd have to replace an average of 14% of the fleet every year to have no vehicle over 7 years old.

Additionally it seems rather wasteful of resources to be dumping buses that aren't (or at least shouldn't if they were made properly and don't experience fire or heavy vandalism) even half way through their useful working life. Even in Leicester where they are about to introduce a cap on emissions levels a substantial number of 14 year old buses (and I think a handful of even older ones including Solos) have been modified to comply rather than replaced. What would possibly be more reasonable and effective at improving standards would be a requirement to repaint and properly refurbish the interior of buses every 5 or so years.

 

[upasalmon]

gnolife - If the 142/143 are needed and they should stay. It's just that there are some empty 82s and 86s in Liverpool serving a similar market. I am about whittling down empty buses not removing busy ones.

Carl Berry Good standards should apply to ALL bus routes, not QBPs.

Deerfold - I will raise the bar to 12 y.o, and 15 for school buses

AB93- "Madness(not the band!) started 34 years ago on the 26th.
Time for sanity to prevail