Timekeeping on the Ffestiniog

[williamn]

I’ve been lucky enough to be enjoying extensive travel on the FR this week. Had fantastic trips but over my 5 journeys I couldn’t help but notice that every single one has been late!

This is posted as a curiosity and not as a complaint, I was in no hurry, but I was curious as to why. One trip was 40 mins late (a signal or locomotive issue depending on who you talk to), two 15 mins late and two 10 mins late.

I was on trains that were running end to end but I would have thought that a much less intensive timetable post covid (sadly) would mean it is easier to run to time? Perhaps the whole line trains conflict with the shuttles the Porthmadog end?

 

[TrainTrackJack]

There are various reasons as to why we can fall behind time, there's been a few issues regarding steaming of late, as crews get used to a new type of coal. If one train is late into Porthmadog then it can often delay everything else as all the FR services need coaling and watering, which especially on a double can take 10 - 15 minutes - which with a tight turnaround can then delay the next set of workings.

 

[D Williams]

Didn't the FR used to burn oil?

 

[Llanigraham]

Didn't the FR used to burn oil?

Not for quite a few years

 

[williamn]

V interesting about the coal, thanks!
My run continued today with trains on the Welsh Highland being ten and twenty mins late. Missed my bus home! Spectacular journey though.

 

[Trainlog]

Didn't the FR used to burn oil?

They did yes. Though its a fan wiki there is a good bit of info on it here.

Ffestiniog Goes Back To Coal - Festipedia

www.festipedia.org.uk

 

[John Luxton]

Sometimes they wait for late running coach tours - observed that earlier this season.

That is not a way to run a railway.

Ooops, sorry they don't run a railway any more they run Experiences!

One of my options for my Explore Wales pass is to try and use the FR between Minffordd and Blaenau in the coming week for a circular trip.

Not sure if I will use the itinerary yet but it is one of my Cambrian Line options.

As a long standing life member of the FRS and more recently WHRS the current modus operandi still irks, though I have decided to declare a truce and visit more often in 2023 than I did in 2022.

I have read the arguments for it but I am still not convinced.

 

[bramling]

Sometimes they wait for late running coach tours - observed that earlier this season.

That is not a way to run a railway.

Ooops, sorry they don't run a railway any more they run Experiences!

One of my options for my Explore Wales pass is to try and use the FR between Minffordd and Blaenau in the coming week for a circular trip.

Not sure if I will use the itinerary yet but it is one of my Cambrian Line options.

As a long standing life member of the FRS and more recently WHRS the current modus operandi still irks, though I have decided to declare a truce and visit more often in 2023 than I did in 2022.

I have read the arguments for it but I am still not convinced.

Waiting for late coaches absolutely infuriates me.

If one has planned 2 hours to do something like a walk, it is so annoying to get 10-20 minutes looped off that, especially as you still have to assume the next train will be on time (even when it often isn’t).

On the specific subject of Ffestiniog, the Tanybwlch journey is worth doing. It uses old stock mainly, and you should get a compartment to yourself. We did it three times whilst in Porthmadog in April, in lieu of a full-length trip to Bleanau which we’d have otherwise normally done. A bit frustrating though, especially as I find the top end of the line the most interesting part to travel over.

 

[Llanigraham]

I would suggest that waiting for a well paying coach tour is far better for their finances than upsetting one or two spotters, especially in the long term.
It certainly wouldn't bother me, as a general punter.

 

[AndrewE]

I would suggest that waiting for a well paying coach tour is far better for their finances than upsetting one or two spotters, especially in the long term.
It certainly wouldn't bother me, as a general punter.

That depends on whether you care about your reputation as perceived by the general public, or are only focussing on coach-trip cash. Forget "just one or two spotters." The people on coaches won't know what the times should have been or what they have paid (probably much less cash per head than the innocent punters expecting a train journey to a timetable to fit in with other public transport links.) Likely they have ignored "back on board" times earlier in the day, which is why the coach is late.

This sort of thing has happened to me before and infuriates me too - if i go for a train and miss it because I am late I don't expect everyone else on the train to have to wait just for me! How many other people's schedules and plans are wrecked by a train waiting for a coach? If the coach company aren't professional enough to be able to time their journey stages including recovery time then they shouldn't be in business - or should be called out by trains departing on time and the coach catching it up if it can. If people miss their trip that is the coach company's fault, not the railway's, and it's their reputation which should suffer.

 

[bramling]

I would suggest that waiting for a well paying coach tour is far better for their finances than upsetting one or two spotters, especially in the long term.

Who says it is going to be “spotters” who are upset?

A lot of people are going to be put out having to wait, not least families with kids who are likely to become increasingly restless waiting around for the journey to start.

It certainly wouldn't bother me, as a general punter.

It would certainly bother me if I’ve made plans around timings. Losing 20 minutes could well mean being unable to do something planned. One thing when due to genuinely exceptional circumstances, not so when it’s not.

 

[John Luxton]

Waiting for late coaches absolutely infuriates me.

If one has planned 2 hours to do something like a walk, it is so annoying to get 10-20 minutes looped off that, especially as you still have to assume the next train will be on time (even when it often isn’t).

On the specific subject of Ffestiniog, the Tanybwlch journey is worth doing. It uses old stock mainly, and you should get a compartment to yourself. We did it three times whilst in Porthmadog in April, in lieu of a full-length trip to Bleanau which we’d have otherwise normally done. A bit frustrating though, especially as I find the top end of the line the most interesting part to travel over.

You make a good point but as the justification of the current working methods is to control costs I no longer see why one or two people can end up with a compartment to themselves on the Tan-y-bwlch shuttles. I too ended up sat in splendid isolation when I also took an April trip. I am not advocating filling to capacity but at least one body to each window seat thus about four seems reasonable.

Short line shuttles are not a new thing and there is clearly a market for them and I seem to recall years ago even shorter shuttles were run just to Minffordd in high summer. However, there should be at least two round trips per day to Blaenau with decent connections into and out of the Conwy Valley trains. A lot used to be made of the so called "Ffestiniog Link" between Cambrian and North Coast in the 1980s even to the extent that FR trains carried Red Star Parcels.

I was looking at times earlier and even when there is a morning "Quarryman" day trip from from Blaenau to Porthmadog at 11:40 it barely allows 4 minutes to connection time from the arrival from Llandudno Junction hardly enough to allow for even slightly late running and enough to discourage those choosing to arrived by Conwy Valley trains from booking just in case something goes wrong.

I would suggest that waiting for a well paying coach tour is far better for their finances than upsetting one or two spotters, especially in the long term.
It certainly wouldn't bother me, as a general punter.

A lot of coach trip passengers only do a one way journey on the line. Only last Sunday I was at Welshpool and a coach party turned up for the afternoon tea package. As this is normally sold on the web site as a round trip I thought the coach would wait for them at Llanfair - but on no they all decanted at Welshpool. There were only two people in the Sierra Leone saloon which they use for these trips on the return run who were obviously independent travellers.

If you want to visit a heritage line don't go on a coach trip. When I was a youngster my grandmother took me on a coach trip from Liverpool to the Talyllyn Railway - I was very disappointed to find out we had to get off at Dolgoch and return to the coach, didn't even get to finish the journey to Abergynolwyn the then terminus. After that never used a coach to visit a railway. I was only 11 back then and it still sticks in my mind over 50 years later.

Incidentally it doesn't just appear to be a UK quirk. I did a cruise to Norway about 10 years ago as one of the calls was at Flam and appeared an easy way of visiting the Flamsbana. One of the options advertised for the cruise was a trip on the railway - but again it was one way by train. Having visited the railway web site I realised a round trip from Flam was easily possible within the shore time. Not only was it cheaper than the package offered to the cruise passengers one got to do the railway both ways. It might be argued by some people only want to do a journey one way - but I think its a poor one as I like to sit one side of the train going in one direction and on the other coming back as one gets to see different things.

Besides it is a very unprofessional thing to do if you do not keep to schedules. If the coach misses the train it is the coach company at fault. If a railway connects with one or more other railway lines as does the Ffestiniog they should try to keep to advertised times.

 

[paul1609]

That depends on whether you care about your reputation as perceived by the general public, or are only focussing on coach-trip cash. Forget "just one or two spotters." The people on coaches won't know what the times should have been or what they have paid (probably much less cash per head than the innocent punters expecting a train journey to a timetable to fit in with other public transport links.) Likely they have ignored "back on board" times earlier in the day, which is why the coach is late.

This sort of thing has happened to me before and infuriates me too - if i go for a train and miss it because I am late I don't expect everyone else on the train to have to wait just for me! How many other people's schedules and plans are wrecked by a train waiting for a coach? If the coach company aren't professional enough to be able to time their journey stages including recovery time then they shouldn't be in business - or should be called out by trains departing on time and the coach catching it up if it can. If people miss their trip that is the coach company's fault, not the railway's, and it's their reputation which should suffer.

Its a nice theory but the truth is you appear to have no concept of the finances of running a heritage railway. The coach party traffic is extremely profitable as it often includes catering packages. It is as consequence highly sort after business. We have a wide range from small traditional family coach companies that are still running traditional holiday packages from the north of England to Large International Cruise Ship Excursion Companies who hire the line for the day and then negotiate the times of the trains. Incomparison customers arriving by public transport are tiny less than 1%. We always will accommodate the coach operators in preference. From my experience the "normal" punters who nearly all arrive by car are perfectly happy as long as you keep them informed. If you didn't accommodate the coach parties you wouldn't get repeat business, some of the traditional firms mentioned above have been sending 2 or 3 trips a year for nearly 50 years.

 

[Western Sunset]

"Delay Repay" might focus some folks' minds, if it was introduced...

 

[williamn]

Its a nice theory but the truth is you appear to have no concept of the finances of running a heritage railway. The coach party traffic is extremely profitable as it often includes catering packages. It is as consequence highly sort after business. We have a wide range from small traditional family coach companies that are still running traditional holiday packages from the north of England to Large International Cruise Ship Excursion Companies who hire the line for the day and then negotiate the times of the trains. Incomparison customers arriving by public transport are tiny less than 1%. We always will accommodate the coach operators in preference. From my experience the "normal" punters who nearly all arrive by car are perfectly happy as long as you keep them informed. If you didn't accommodate the coach parties you wouldn't get repeat business, some of the traditional firms mentioned above have been sending 2 or 3 trips a year for nearly 50 years.

It's not surprising that public transport connections are only 1% when the connections are so poor. I wanted to take the train back to Blaenau today but there was a 3 hour wait until the next Conway Valley train, it having missed the previous one by about 10 mins. So I got the bus instead.

I can totally understand the rest of your post, and can see how valuable block bookings of a whole coach or more must be, esp as I imagine they are booked way in advance and its predictable money in the bank. But surely timings could be adjusted 10-15 mins here and there to provide workable connections with the mainline? (assuming that my delays this week were a blip!)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In the other direction, how much margin is there for if interchanging at Minffordd for trains on the Cambrian Coast line?

Looking at the 1140 departure from Blaenau Ffestiniog, this should arrive into Minffordd at 1235, so plenty of time if you're wanting to travel onwards to Machynlleth/Birmingham (1406 next departure) but not so much margin if you're wanting Pwllheli (1242).

 

[bramling]

Its a nice theory but the truth is you appear to have no concept of the finances of running a heritage railway. The coach party traffic is extremely profitable as it often includes catering packages. It is as consequence highly sort after business. We have a wide range from small traditional family coach companies that are still running traditional holiday packages from the north of England to Large International Cruise Ship Excursion Companies who hire the line for the day and then negotiate the times of the trains. Incomparison customers arriving by public transport are tiny less than 1%. We always will accommodate the coach operators in preference. From my experience the "normal" punters who nearly all arrive by car are perfectly happy as long as you keep them informed. If you didn't accommodate the coach parties you wouldn't get repeat business, some of the traditional firms mentioned above have been sending 2 or 3 trips a year for nearly 50 years.

I beg to differ on this one. I’d say the biggest source of moans I’ve heard on heritage railways is when they don’t run on time, especially if the train is waiting around. Just because people are diplomatic about it doesn’t mean they’re happy.

The correct solution in this situation is for the train to depart and for the railway to discuss the situation with the coach company.

It’s pretty bad form really to delay a whole train worth of people for a late coach, and it’s even more of an issue in the era of everything being pre-booked, as people may well have pre-booked something else later in the day working on the reasonable basis that the railway will do everything possible to keep things on time.

 

[randyrippley]

Its a nice theory but the truth is you appear to have no concept of the finances of running a heritage railway. The coach party traffic is extremely profitable as it often includes catering packages. It is as consequence highly sort after business. We have a wide range from small traditional family coach companies that are still running traditional holiday packages from the north of England to Large International Cruise Ship Excursion Companies who hire the line for the day and then negotiate the times of the trains. Incomparison customers arriving by public transport are tiny less than 1%. We always will accommodate the coach operators in preference. From my experience the "normal" punters who nearly all arrive by car are perfectly happy as long as you keep them informed. If you didn't accommodate the coach parties you wouldn't get repeat business, some of the traditional firms mentioned above have been sending 2 or 3 trips a year for nearly 50 years.

Thanks for explaining that. I'll now remove you from the list of places to take the grandkids this summer

 

[Llanigraham]

Its a nice theory but the truth is you appear to have no concept of the finances of running a heritage railway. The coach party traffic is extremely profitable as it often includes catering packages. It is as consequence highly sort after business. We have a wide range from small traditional family coach companies that are still running traditional holiday packages from the north of England to Large International Cruise Ship Excursion Companies who hire the line for the day and then negotiate the times of the trains. Incomparison customers arriving by public transport are tiny less than 1%. We always will accommodate the coach operators in preference. From my experience the "normal" punters who nearly all arrive by car are perfectly happy as long as you keep them informed. If you didn't accommodate the coach parties you wouldn't get repeat business, some of the traditional firms mentioned above have been sending 2 or 3 trips a year for nearly 50 years.

Thank you Paul, but I suspect that you and I will be the only ones understanding and agreeing with this.

 

[JB_B]

Thanks for explaining that. I'll now remove you from the list of places to take the grandkids this summer

Which heritage railways will you be removing from your list - all of them ?

 

[paul1609]

I beg to differ on this one. I’d say the biggest source of moans I’ve heard on heritage railways is when they don’t run on time, especially if the train is waiting around. Just because people are diplomatic about it doesn’t mean they’re happy.

The correct solution in this situation is for the train to depart and for the railway to discuss the situation with the coach company.

It’s pretty bad form really to delay a whole train worth of people for a late coach, and it’s even more of an issue in the era of everything being pre-booked, as people may well have pre-booked something else later in the day working on the reasonable basis that the railway will do everything possible to keep things on time.

I've been a volunteer Footplate/Guard/PW/retail/catering on my railway since 1979, my last guards turn was last Friday, the gift shop the Sunday before. So my sample of happy people is probably pretty good I'd say.
How does your experience compare?

 

[infobleep]

Its a nice theory but the truth is you appear to have no concept of the finances of running a heritage railway. The coach party traffic is extremely profitable as it often includes catering packages. It is as consequence highly sort after business. We have a wide range from small traditional family coach companies that are still running traditional holiday packages from the north of England to Large International Cruise Ship Excursion Companies who hire the line for the day and then negotiate the times of the trains. Incomparison customers arriving by public transport are tiny less than 1%. We always will accommodate the coach operators in preference. From my experience the "normal" punters who nearly all arrive by car are perfectly happy as long as you keep them informed. If you didn't accommodate the coach parties you wouldn't get repeat business, some of the traditional firms mentioned above have been sending 2 or 3 trips a year for nearly 50 years.

I appreciate everything you say but what happens if a member of the public arrives by public transport and misses their connection home at the end?

Should people allow an extra 60 minutes at the end of their trip to account for potential delays during the trip?

I appreciate it is a minority but it's still possible.

 

[paul1609]

To be honest I think I've been approached by passengers that were going to be stranded because of train delays only twice and neither of those were coach party related. It's far more common to get passengers who have misread the timetable and end up at a differeñt end of the line to their car/tent/motorhome after the last train has departed

 

[30907]

I appreciate everything you say but what happens if a member of the public arrives by public transport and misses their connection home at the end?

Should people allow an extra 60 minutes at the end of their trip to account for potential delays during the trip?

Given the likelihood of delays on heritage railways (mostly nothing to do with coach parties) it would be wise to have a Plan B. Galas in particular are known for late running.

 

[eldomtom2]

I've been a volunteer Footplate/Guard/PW/retail/catering on my railway since 1979, my last guards turn was last Friday, the gift shop the Sunday before. So my sample of happy people is probably pretty good I'd say.
How does your experience compare?

I'm not sure any information is gained by comparing anecdotes...

 

[43055]

I’ve been lucky enough to be enjoying extensive travel on the FR this week. Had fantastic trips but over my 5 journeys I couldn’t help but notice that every single one has been late!

This is posted as a curiosity and not as a complaint, I was in no hurry, but I was curious as to why. One trip was 40 mins late (a signal or locomotive issue depending on who you talk to), two 15 mins late and two 10 mins late.

I was on trains that were running end to end but I would have thought that a much less intensive timetable post covid (sadly) would mean it is easier to run to time? Perhaps the whole line trains conflict with the shuttles the Porthmadog end?

Nothing new. Had a day out using the Conwy Valley from Llandudno Jun to pick up the railway at Blaenau. The service was late both ways and on the return there was about 10 min connection with the Conwy Valley service and it was missed by around 5 mins. Fortunately the Ffestiniog put a taxi on for the 3 of us which wanted the train otherwise we would have had to wait 3 hours.

 

[Russel]

Is the Welsh Highland equally effected by poor timekeeping?

 

[WAB]

Is the Welsh Highland equally effected by poor timekeeping?

I find that it is more vulnerable to delays. The line is very challenging so a poorly locomotive will have a greater impact on timekeeping than elsewhere (and the end of Welsh steam coal doesn't help either). Missing a path over the Cambrian at Cae Pawb can cause delays. Occasionally, maintenance requirements mean the locomotives have to switch part way along. There are plenty of wooded sections which can cause adhesion issues, and hot weather can prevent the Garratts being thrashed to make up time. There is more time for things to go wrong, too, given the journey length.

 

[vlad]

Is the Welsh Highland equally effected by poor timekeeping?

The one time I did the line we left Porthmadog on time but lost time gradually heading north and must have got to Caernarfon about 15 minutes late. Going back we were on time from Caernarfon to Rhyd Ddu but then had to wait the best part of half an hour for a late-running train coming the other way to vacate the single-track section. That meant we missed the path over the flat crossing on the approach to Porthmadog and had to wait to be allowed across. It's a shame they don't do delay repay.

 

[The exile]

Its a nice theory but the truth is you appear to have no concept of the finances of running a heritage railway. The coach party traffic is extremely profitable as it often includes catering packages. It is as consequence highly sort after business. We have a wide range from small traditional family coach companies that are still running traditional holiday packages from the north of England to Large International Cruise Ship Excursion Companies who hire the line for the day and then negotiate the times of the trains. Incomparison customers arriving by public transport are tiny less than 1%. We always will accommodate the coach operators in preference. From my experience the "normal" punters who nearly all arrive by car are perfectly happy as long as you keep them informed. If you didn't accommodate the coach parties you wouldn't get repeat business, some of the traditional firms mentioned above have been sending 2 or 3 trips a year for nearly 50 years.

Fine - so steer the coach parties to one particular return trip which has plenty of time at either end to recover - and make it clear that that train will wait for all coach parties.