Timescale for getting a refund

[beeza1]

I was intending to travel between Huddersfield and Birmingham New Street early on Sunday 22nd December, splitting at Manchester, catching the 08:05 TPE service from HUD to connect with the 09:27 XC service at MAN.
I purchased my ticket for the MAN to BHM leg from the TPE website on Sat 21st Dec so I could reserve a seat, and was intending to get my HUD to MAN ticket at the station as I wanted to use some RTV's.
Up early Sunday morning, checked the trains, 08:05 listed as cancelled, (Train crew problems IIRC), quick check on NRE showed the next available train departing at 09:25, which would get me to BHM too late, so I immediately cancelled the tickets online requesting a refund, stating the reasons above. I then made alternative arrangements.
I have heard nothing from TPE, in fact I never got a confirmation email when I booked my tickets, I had expected the refund to show up in my account within a couple of days at the most, any suggestions what to do next?
I trust they won't have the audacity to charge me the extortionate £10 admin fee, as it was, after all the cancellation of their train that caused the problem.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I have heard nothing from TPE, in fact I never got a confirmation email when I booked my tickets, I had expected the refund to show up in my account within a couple of days at the most, any suggestions what to do next?

In the absence of confirmation of the ticket in the first place, maybe check whether TPE ever actually took the fare from your bank account?

 

[beeza1]

In the absence of confirmation of the ticket in the first place, maybe check whether TPE ever actually took the fare from your bank account?

That was the first thing I did, and I can confirm the my credit card has been debited by the said amount.
When I log on to my TPE account the journey details are there with "awaiting refund" listed, two and a half weeks and counting seems an awfully long time, even taking into account the festive period, to get a refund processed.
Will probably revert to paying cash at the station in future.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

When I log on to my TPE account the journey details are there with "awaiting refund" listed, two and a half weeks and counting seems an awfully long time

Agreed it seems like a long time. But as the journey is flagged as 'awaiting refund' it sounds as if everything is underway, and for the moment the thing to do is to sit tight and wait.

 

[Belperpete]

I think you are being a bit optimistic in expecting anything to happen within a couple of days, or even a couple of weeks. The refund is not automatic, customer services have to check the validity of your claim. I believe that the customer charter sets a target of 20 working days (i.e. 4 weeks, longer allowing for the Xmas holidays) for customer services to act. Many TOCs take considerably longer than that. As TPE customer services are likely dealing with a large number of complaints, it wouldn't surprise me if they were failing to hit this target.

Where you buy tickets in advance so as to get a reservation, I am not sure how paying by cash would help. You would still be waiting for TPE customer services to process your refund claim, however you paid.

 

[beeza1]

Well we are now into the seventh week since making my claim for a refund, I contacted TPE a couple of weeks ago and got the generic "5 days, but may be up to 20 days" reply, as I purchased my ticket with my credit card it would now be accruing interest, if not for the fact I pay it off in full each month.
I sincerely hope they will waive the admin fee and add a little extra for the inconvenience, I remember a few years ago I got £150 in RTV's from Virgin due to delays at New Street ticket office.
With regards to paying cash at the station, this would have been done on the day of travel, and had the train been cancelled after purchase I would have gone back to the ticket office and got a refund.
To summarise I find this situation totally unacceptable, it didn't take this long to get my car repaired last year after white van man had used me for a brake!

 

[Belperpete]

If you have not heard anything within 40 working days, you are entitled to go direct to the ombudsman. I would suggest that you try telephoning (NOT emailing) their customer services first though.

With some TOC s, sending an email can result in your claim going to the back of the queue again, as noted in a separate thread. So, if you contacted them a couple of weeks ago by email, this may have delayed your claim.

 

[beeza1]

Thanks for that, will attempt to contact them on Monday.

 

[Adam Williams]

as I purchased my ticket with my credit card it would now be accruing interest

If you continue to get nowhere with customer services, you may wish to consider a chargeback.

With Mastercard (for example), doing this will charge the retailer 15 EUR on top of the cost of the ticket and immediately refund you. If the retailer disputes the chargeback, a fee of 30 EUR is applied. If the dispute proceeds to arbitration, the claim costs 150 EUR to file, 250 EUR when a decision is made and then 100 EUR on top per rule that Mastercard believes has been broken during the process.

I have sympathy for retailers dealing with high numbers of claims, particularly more involved ones where e.g. disruption has happened and the admin fee needs to be waived because of an abandoned journey. But this length of time after the claim was made is just ridiculous.

Filing chargebacks has very real consequences for retailers - not only the fees, but also because card networks will monitor the chargeback rate and drop support for merchants with excessive chargeback rates (Stripe suggests a chargeback rate of >0.75% is the start of what's considered excessive).

 

[gray1404]

If you continue to get nowhere with customer services, you may wish to consider a chargeback.

With Mastercard (for example), doing this will charge the retailer 15 EUR on top of the cost of the ticket and immediately refund you. If the retailer disputes the chargeback, a fee of 30 EUR is applied. If the dispute proceeds to arbitration, the claim costs 150 EUR to file, 250 EUR when a decision is made and then 100 EUR on top per rule that Mastercard believes has been broken during the process.

I have sympathy for retailers dealing with high numbers of claims, particularly more involved ones where e.g. disruption has happened and the admin fee needs to be waived because of an abandoned journey. But this length of time after the claim was made is just ridiculous.

Filing chargebacks has very real consequences for retailers - not only the fees, but also because card networks will monitor the chargeback rate and drop support for merchants with excessive chargeback rates (Stripe suggests a chargeback rate of >0.75% is the start of what's considered excessive).

What are the fees applied to Visa chargebacks? Do both operate in much the same way?

In order for a chargeback to occur though, doesn't the issuing bank have to agree with the customer that there is a problem? I ask this because I've tried to raise chargebacks with my Nationwide Visa card before and its not been taken any further, despite providing supporting evidence at my end, as Nationwide have felt there isn't enough to support a valid claim.

Barclays on the other hand have always been excellent whenever I've raised anything and are by no means as "customer unfriendly" as Nationwide.

 

[Adam Williams]

What are the fees applied to Visa chargebacks? Do both operate in much the same way?

I believe so, but only Mastercard's fee schedule is publicly available in its chargeback guide (pg 191) so difficult to know for sure. I believe Visa's is only available under NDA.

In order for a chargeback to occur though, doesn't the issuing bank have to agree with the customer that there is a problem?

Yup, that's right.

I ask this because I've tried to raise chargebacks with my Nationwide Visa card before and its not been taken any further, despite providing supporting evidence at my end, as Nationwide have felt there isn't enough to support a valid claim.

As far as I know, banks generally don't pass on the chargeback fees to their customers. In addition, some banks such as Barclays I think, will front the money when you first submit a chargeback so you get it straight away. Both of these factors, along with how much money the bank/issuer has to potentially throw away and their past experience with chargeback cases and how they've gone, will influence the bank's appetite to take on a chargeback case.

Fronting the refund amount as soon as it's received from the merchant is risky for the bank because a chargeback is only won when one party gives up and stops sending messages to escalate the chargeback. E.g. the merchant can take up to 45 days to do a second presentment after the initial first chargeback by the bank. Risk averse banks will, for non-fraud cases, often wait this time out before crediting the customer's account.

 

[crablab]

With Mastercard (for example), doing this will charge the retailer 15 EUR on top of the cost of the ticket and immediately refund you. If the retailer disputes the chargeback, a fee of 30 EUR is applied. If the dispute proceeds to arbitration, the claim costs 150 EUR to file, 250 EUR when a decision is made and then 100 EUR on top per rule that Mastercard believes has been broken during the process.

This is a little inaccurate. The DAF (Disputes Administration Fee) is charged to the losing party. Mastercard uses a stepped charge process to encourage early resolution.

First Presentment Chargeback: 15 EUR DAF (Acquirer)
Second Presentment: 30 EUR DAF (Issuer)
Arbitration Chargeback: 45 EUR DAF (Acquirer)

If the acquirer wishes to file for pre-arbitration they incur a 150 EUR filing fee. If the issuer accepts, they are charged an additional 150 EUR withdrawal fee.

At Arbitration, the losing party is charged the 150 EUR filing fee, a 250 EUR administration fee and 100 EUR per technical rule violation.

Compliance has a separate fee structure

 

[Adam Williams]

This is a little inaccurate

Thanks Hugh, you'll know how this works better than me :P

Looks like I was reasonably close to reality, if just slightly off the mark about who the fees got charged to and how arbitration works!

 

[crablab]

Looks like I was reasonably close to reality, if just slightly off the mark about who the fees got charged to and how arbitration works!

Yup! It can get a bit complicated sadly :/

I ask this because I've tried to raise chargebacks with my Nationwide Visa card before and its not been taken any further, despite providing supporting evidence at my end, as Nationwide have felt there isn't enough to support a valid claim.

The rules are quite specific on what constitutes a valid dispute and what is sufficient evidence. An example I use a lot is that the rules are focused on contractual disputes - so if the merchant breaches the Consumer Contracts regulations by not accepting a return within 14 days, there is no chargeback right as long as this was disclosed at purchase. So sadly, whilst the situation may be very unfair - if it doesn't fit into the right category there isn't a lot that can be done

 

[Adam Williams]

For what it's worth @gray1404, there are a few threads on Monzo's community forum which demystify a lot of this (not just chargebacks, but the UK's banking systems in general!) which is indeed where much of my understanding has come from. I think historically as a customer, a lot of this has just essentially been a black box where none of what actually goes on is explained very well.

 

[Belperpete]

In my experience with charge-backs, the bank will want you to go through the seller's dispute procedure before they will consider a charge-back.

 

[paddington]

I ask this because I've tried to raise chargebacks with my Nationwide Visa card before and its not been taken any further, despite providing supporting evidence at my end, as Nationwide have felt there isn't enough to support a valid claim.

Barclays on the other hand have always been excellent whenever I've raised anything and are by no means as "customer unfriendly" as Nationwide.

You can always take Nationwide to the Financial Ombudsman (after 8 weeks) where they will be charged at least £500, and you nothing, regardless of who the Ombudsman feels was in the right.

 

[island]

You can always take Nationwide to the Financial Ombudsman (after 8 weeks) where they will be charged at least £500, and you nothing, regardless of who the Ombudsman feels was in the right.

Nowadays it is 3 weeks and £550

 

[beeza1]

I phoned TPE this morning, and after a 5 minute call got things sorted, apparently my claim was approved some time ago but, for whatever reason it was never issued, it has now been issued and the admin fee waived, it should appear in my account in 5 to 7 working days.
Got a confirmation email this afternoon too.
Got to admit though, I'd never heard of charge back, will have to do some research in case I need to use it in the future.
Thank you to everyone who posted.

 

[yorkie]

My advice is to book with a retailer you trust using a credit card; if they don't do anything, pester them, if nothing happens go to the Ombudsman. If still no joy, do a chargeback as the last resort.

If you are ever embarking on a journey and a company refuses to accept valid tickets, pay under duress from that company, using a credit card, and follow a similar approach to the above, except enlist the support of a retailer (a good retailer will support you if you were following their itinerary when unlawfully charged by the train company), again having the chargeback option as a last resort.

Some retailers have representatives on this forum, and some even attend forum events from time to time, so if any forum members are having difficulties, do let me know, and if it's one of the retailers I have contacts with, I will assist if I can.

 

[crablab]

If you are ever embarking on a journey and a company refuses to accept valid tickets, pay under duress from that company, using a credit card, and follow a similar approach to the above, except enlist the support of a retailer (a good retailer will support you if you were following their itinerary when unlawfully charged by the train company), again having the chargeback option as a last resort.

Professionally, I don't think I've ever actually seen this situation (which is a good thing!). I'm not convinced you would have chargeback rights, however. They exist where a transaction failed (or appeared to fail) and you waited a "reasonable" period for positive confirmation before making the payment again, but it later turned out the original transaction had succeeded and you ended up being billed twice.

The issue is in a face-to-face transaction, by utilising the card you are considered to unilaterally accept the goods in that condition - there is no "not as described" chargeback right. If the CoC/terms of sale say you're entitled to a full refund when a ticket is mis-sold then you might have chargeback rights there, but I don't think you can simply buy a new ticket "safe" in the knowledge you can get a refund.

 

[gray1404]

The passenger may have Chargeback rights in relation to the first ticket purchased. However, they may not have them in relation to the second ticket if they are asked to pay again, incorrectly, whilst using a valid ticket. That said the Consumer Credit Act (applying to credit cards) makes provision for a card issuer being liable for consequential/additional costs incurred. I believe the Consumer Credit Act sets in when the total value of the entire transaction charged to the card totals at least £100 and at least some of this amount is charged to the credit card. So if there was a problem with ticket 1 and that forced you to, at the request of a retailer/TOC, purchase ticket 2 then you might have a case. I would try and use the same credit card for both tickets if possible.

I would also try to purchase the tickets (original purchase) if possible from the train company I thought I was most likely to have a problem with. That way the relationship between credit card customer and provider of the service (the retailer) is maintained and not broken down by using an agent/third party. Again, the Consumer Credit Act requires that direct relation to be maintained.

 

[crablab]

However, they may not have them in relation to the second ticket if they are asked to pay again, incorrectly, whilst using a valid ticket.

I can confirm they do not.

That said the Consumer Credit Act (applying to credit cards) makes provision for a card issuer being liable for consequential/additional costs incurred. I believe the Consumer Credit Act sets in when the total value of the entire transaction charged to the card totals at least £100 and at least some of this amount is charged to the credit card. So if there was a problem with ticket 1 and that forced you to, at the request of a retailer/TOC, purchase ticket 2 then you might have a case.

As you say the transaction total itself has to be £100 or more, with any amount actually on the credit card.

The important part is the lender is held jointly liable for breach of contract as the merchant. So, subject to you doing some basic attempts at resolution, you should be able to invoke Section 75 and demonstrate the breach of contract to the lender for them to issue a refund and take it up with the merchant on your behalf.
Whether this would apply to the inappropriately purchased ticket, I don't know enough about the CoC to say whether it would be breach of contract.

Again, the Consumer Credit Act requires that direct relation to be maintained.

This is a very interesting point, and I'm not sure how it would be applied in practice. The examples I have seen relate to marketplaces such as eBay and Amazon and I guess buying from one TOC for use on another would make it an indirect relationship.