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TOC behaviour and the law

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Fermiboson

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There is something to be said about the use of duress in obtaining an out of court settlement, which may fall foul of the common law principle of lawful act duress, in which a party entering into a settlement (or more generally contract) utilises its superior position to make illegitimate (but legal) threats, leaving the other party with no reasonable alternative than to waive legitimate rights. The keystone case in the commercial world is PIAC v Times Travel UK Ltd (Appellant) [2021], where a litmus test for the principle was considered: exploiting the fact that a party had knowledge of some criminal matter to obtain an advantage in negotiations, or using unconscionable methods to weaken the position of the other party, hence causing the counterparty to enter into an unconscionable agreement. The argument, I would imagine, would be that the TOC used the knowledge of the one instance of travelling without a valid ticket to obtain a much higher payout than could be defended in court, and deliberately refused to make investigations that could reveal evidence advantageous to the counterparty. This settlement offer is also made in bad faith as any reasonable person would conclude given the emails and third party retailer evidence etc. that such a claim could not be defended in court.
The defendant must deliberately increase a counterparty’s vulnerability to a demand, and then make that demand in bad faith.
However, the counterargument would go (as it did somewhat similarly, and successfully, in the named case) that the TOC genuinely believed the amounts were due and were not convinced beyond their own evidentiary standard that a valid railcard was indeed present. It would be rather hard to prove the intention of bad faith.

A slightly closer case, Al Saif Group v. Robert Thomas Cable [2022], ruled that the use of threats of criminal prosecution alone did not amount to an act of duress and did not invalidate out of court settlements already signed. In the case, it was ruled that the threat of prosecution must be one where “undue process” was threatened. It is not immediately clear how this would apply in our context (is the refusal to accept clear and convincing evidentiary standard regarding the railcard undue process? Was any threat made to prosecute under a more severe charge such as fraud which the TOC knew could not stand?), but it is abundantly clear that lawful act duress is a very high bar. The court goes on to find that the threat of prosecution must have been “particularly terrifying or oppressive”, which does not help.

Ultimately, none of this is likely to ever matter unless someone were to try to bring a class action lawsuit of some sort, which in itself is already hard enough never mind the high burdens of proof of all the possible avenues of misconduct. Will also note that the historically much more successful avenue of misrepresentation in out of court settlements likely does not apply here, given that the TOC did not lie about anything - they never claimed the railcard records were not in their possession, they were entitled to pursue a prosecution under the stated terms, OP’s friend did actually use an invalid railcard once, etc.

Disclaimer: Not a lawyer, nor a law student. Talking out of my ass (with consultation from law students and some books).
 
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Parham Wood

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It would be interesting to see if the apps are fit for purpose. Do they just before payment is requested show in plain terms and not small print what you have bought and the type of railcard used etc? Not saying this is a get out but perhaps more pressure would need to be brought on companies to do this. Thinking of the partially sighted, elderly here as well.
 

Fermiboson

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It would be interesting to see if the apps are fit for purpose. Do they just before payment is requested show in plain terms and not small print what you have bought and the type of railcard used etc? Not saying this is a get out but perhaps more pressure would need to be brought on companies to do this. Thinking of the partially sighted, elderly here as well.
As I understand, not at all. I have often, as a relatively tech savvy user, had trouble verifying which journey I am booking for, especially when I have multiple tabs open for split ticketing etc. However, one can already see the many cases on this forum of the disadvantaged fumbling when confronted by RPIs and such and hence landing themselves in much hotter water than need be. So while the issue you raised is no doubt real, there are probably bigger fish to fry for any such pressure group.
 

FenMan

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It would be interesting to see if the apps are fit for purpose. Do they just before payment is requested show in plain terms and not small print what you have bought and the type of railcard used etc? Not saying this is a get out but perhaps more pressure would need to be brought on companies to do this. Thinking of the partially sighted, elderly here as well.

In my part of the world, no ticket machine does this. That would raise the question whether ticket machines are fit for purpose?

I can see the rabbit hole from here, and I'm not going to go down it .....

There's only so much that can be done to save people from themselves, whether they're partially-sighted or otherwise.
 

Fermiboson

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In my part of the world, no ticket machine does this. That would raise the question whether ticket machines are fit for purpose?

I can see the rabbit hole from here, and I'm not going to go down it .....

There's only so much that can be done to save people from themselves, whether they're partially-sighted or otherwise.
Well, no. Accessibility is a legitimate concern, be it for more obvious disabiliies like blindness or deafness, or for less obvious ones like dyslexia, dysgraphia, ADD/autism, etc. Most of the time, these accessibility features aren't complicated or expensive to implement, they simply require an attention to detail. We already have staff which will be called to any station just to provide a ramp for people with limited mobility; that service is far more "excessive" or expensive than, say, a detailed confirmation page, larger font size and better contrasting colours will ever be.
 

Any_Permitted

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It would be interesting to see if the apps are fit for purpose. Do they just before payment is requested show in plain terms and not small print what you have bought and the type of railcard used etc? Not saying this is a get out but perhaps more pressure would need to be brought on companies to do this. Thinking of the partially sighted, elderly here as well.
When it comes to railcards, the Transport for Wales app is really good. For me at least, it doesn't save the railcard so each time I buy a ticket I have to deliberately go to another menu and add it. Selecting a railcard causes a rather blunt message to appear saying that if you don't carry the railcard with you it could lead to a criminal record. Top marks, the app is very well-designed in that aspect.
 

John R

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When it comes to railcards, the Transport for Wales app is really good. For me at least, it doesn't save the railcard so each time I buy a ticket I have to deliberately go to another menu and add it. Selecting a railcard causes a rather blunt message to appear saying that if you don't carry the railcard with you it could lead to a criminal record. Top marks, the app is very well-designed in that aspect.
Welcome to the forum, and thank you for the tip. It’s good to see at least one operator show how it should be done.

P.S. Love the name, though I hope you won’t rabbit on too much.
 

emotionalimine

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Technically speaking the Regulation of Railways Act requires the TOC to prove intent to avoid the fare, if the tickets were bought accidentally I fail to see how this can be proved.
Just jumping in to clarify; you were probably thinking of the Section 5(3) offence which is '...with intent to avoid payment'.
But there's also the Section 5(1) offence which is strict liability - no particular intent required - and which carries a lower maximum penalty (Level 2 vs Level 3+).

Legislation.gov - s5 Regulation of Railways Act 1889
 

cactustwirly

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Just jumping in to clarify; you were probably thinking of the Section 5(3) offence which is '...with intent to avoid payment'.
But there's also the Section 5(1) offence which is strict liability - no particular intent required - and which carries a lower maximum penalty (Level 2 vs Level 3+).

Legislation.gov - s5 Regulation of Railways Act 1889
However section 5(1) can't be used if the defendant gave their details. It's talking about refusal to show a ticket or give over details there is nothing there about avoiding the fare
 

Bletchleyite

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However section 5(1) can't be used if the defendant gave their details. It's talking about refusal to show a ticket or give over details there is nothing there about avoiding the fare

Indeed. To be prosecuted under 5(1) the passenger has to do ALL of the following:

1. Fail to produce a ticket
2. Fail to pay the fare they should have paid
3. Fail to give their name and address on request

If they produce a ticket, or offer the fare, or offer their name and address, then that cannot be prosecuted. Thus this is only useful in very niche circumstances - it would pretty much have to be the BTP stepping in to catch someone who ran off having failed to do all three.

I'm kind of not surprised a poster is confused about that, because Merseyrail (for it is they) tried to bring a prosecution on the grounds of a passenger only not having produced a ticket, and ended up dropping it - but they went a long way before they did. Unfortunately the poster didn't get to make a fool of them in Court over it, though, they did drop it just before. The thread should still be there somewhere. They tried it because they didn't like the fact that a decided Penalty Fare appeal statute bars prosecution of all the other bits.
 

emotionalimine

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However section 5(1) can't be used if the defendant gave their details.

Yes, you're quite right that in the context of the OP's circumstances it wouldn't apply. I very sensibly forgot the bit about them giving their correct details.
Appreciate that from a prosecution-minded point of view s5(1) is of limited use, but it strikes me as a surprisingly fair-minded bit of legislation.

Reads as though it essentially ties back to a civil remedy for passengers who, (presumably without intent to avoid paying) don't have a ticket, can't then-and-there buy a ticket, but are willing to give their details so that the matter can still be properly resolved.
I'm new to all of this, and it's absolutely fascinating. Perhaps a relic of a different time?
 
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