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TOC contract expiry dates

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Djgr

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The GBRTT has been at it for more than three years, with very little to show for it yet, bar the selection of Derby as the HQ.
Admittedly their terms of reference will have been altered several times with each change of Secretary of State (the last time being only days ago).
You can bill the cost to "renationalisation".
Instead can we not bill it to Bojo, Truss the lettuce, Sunak and the rest of those clowns?
 
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HerneHill

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So yes, there isn't much to show but that has been because 3-4 ideologies have happened since its formation.
100% - how can we “bill” anything to renationalisation when the govt under the previous 3 PMs kept flip-flopping and never even started getting on with it?
 

GRALISTAIR

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Eventually when everything is together there are operational advantages.
Exactly my thought too. I think there will be more stock fleet commonality which will help.

It won't be Ryanair/Southwest which famously just has a fleet of Boeing 737s - one lot of spares, one set of training etc etc. Still if GBR could move towards this sort of model it could save a huge amount of cost in my opinion. Yes- before anyone points it out - I know I am grossly oversimplifying and there are reasons why it can't go exactly the same way as Ryanair etc.

A natural consequence of continuing for far too long to procure obsolete rolling stock. Slam door production should have stopped in the 1950s at the latest.
Optimistic. 1970s yes though.
 

Carlisle

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Agreed. Just yes men (and women) now. If only Chris Green, Graham Eccles et al could come out of retirement!
They both managed TOCs in the privatised era too, with some degree of success but so did numerous other bosses.
 
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Kite159

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Exactly my thought too. I think there will be more stock fleet commonality which will help.

It won't be Ryanair/Southwest which famously just has a fleet of Boeing 737s - one lot of spares, one set of training etc etc. Still if GBR could move towards this sort of model it could save a huge amount of cost in my opinion. Yes- before anyone points it out - I know I am grossly oversimplifying and there are reasons why it can't go exactly the same way as Ryanair etc.


Optimistic. 1970s yes though.
Considering the varying ages of rolling stock throughout the country, how long would it simply take for it to be replaced by the "one size fits all" train. The proof will be if they decide to order new DMUs to replace the sprinters for Northern/SWR/GWR etc
 

physics34

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Exactly my thought too. I think there will be more stock fleet commonality which will help.

It won't be Ryanair/Southwest which famously just has a fleet of Boeing 737s - one lot of spares, one set of training etc etc. Still if GBR could move towards this sort of model it could save a huge amount of cost in my opinion. Yes- before anyone points it out - I know I am grossly oversimplifying and there are reasons why it can't go exactly the same way as Ryanair etc.


Optimistic. 1970s yes though.
Yes. And for train crew and route knowledge. There are barmy stories of different train companies crew having different messrooms in the same location. Cross covering would be an advantage. Some drivers of old would have vast traction and route knowledge.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Yes. And for train crew and route knowledge. There are barmy stories of different train companies crew having different messrooms in the same location. Cross covering would be an advantage. Some drivers of old would have vast traction and route knowledge.
Exactly so. Train crew and route knowledge being key.
 

Goldfish62

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Yes. And for train crew and route knowledge. There are barmy stories of different train companies crew having different messrooms in the same location.
Waterloo still has separate driver and guard messrooms I'm told. Barmy indeed. In fact the militaristic term "messroom" seems a bit of an anachronism.
 

vuzzeho

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Any idea what's going to happen with DOHL operators? Or when we'd find out? Does debranding start soon?
 

JonathanH

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Any idea what's going to happen with DOHL operators? Or when we'd find out? Does debranding start soon?
There isn't a GBR brand to put them into yet. Is your expectation that trains will run around unbranded for a few years?
 

450.emu

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I’m not so convinced going back to the days of BR is such a great idea. From what I remember the railways were dirty , old and extremely unreliable compared to now , also i wonder whether wages and conditions would be as they are now if it had stayed in state hands being as public sector workers have hardly had any pay raises in the last 15 odd years
Perhaps mine is a simplistic view, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's all going to be one livery like TfL buses or Bee Network is, but various private operators won't have their names on the sides to the carriages. Or as an initial transition / variation the Double Arrow could replace operator names as contracts wind down?

For instance Go Ahead run some buses in London, but they are identical livery to Arriva's or Stagecoach's . Operators who recently invested huge sums, such as Greater Anglia which has replaced the entire rolling stock, or c2c who is rolling out some new 720s might feel the rug has been pulled from under their feet. There's no mention of the ROSCOs either who lease the rolling stock itself.

I think it's an initial cosmetic makeover but the private sector will still be involved. Is there even a livery yet? Interesting that in that Parliament letter / Government announcement Ms Alexander is now calling "Great British Rail" and not "Railways"... I can see it returning to just "British Rail" in no time at all as the current name is quite grandiose :rolleyes:
 

Meerkat

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i know the Labour Party is union funded but will they really want to merge staff terms by merging TOCs in a way that enables national rail strikes?
 

Carlisle

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i know the Labour Party is union funded but will they really want to merge staff terms by merging TOCs in a way that enables national rail strikes?
We effectively had that in England over the last 2 Summers anyway. Prior to the last election.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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i know the Labour Party is union funded but will they really want to merge staff terms by merging TOCs in a way that enables national rail strikes?
The govt couldn't afford merged T&Cs unless the unions were prepared to set different pay rates that ensured overall train crew costs didn't materially change. This is likely to become a bone of contention in a couple of years once all operators nationalised and undermine the GBR if its not managed now which is why (S)GBR should have appointed senior staff by now to take the lead in areas like this its not as if DfT Operated Railways Ltd has a good track record on industrial relations.
 

JonathanH

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i know the Labour Party is union funded but will they really want to merge staff terms by merging TOCs in a way that enables national rail strikes?
National rail strikes are possible already without merging staff terms if the ballots are coordinated and the issue affects all of the staff.

However, it is correct that secondary action isn't possible.
 

irish_rail

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I can't help but worry that with the time frames involved, we are not going to get the finished result in time for (sadly let's face it) the Tories (perhaps in coalition with Reform) getting back in power in 2029 and potentially un doing all these changes. Labour should be looking at taking back all contracts as fast as humanely possible , preferably all by end of 2026 latest, to then focus on the actual restructuring / traincrew changes / re branding etc etc. The danger is that with all the remaining fragmentation , just Government owned, it will be very very easy just to re privatise come 2029.
 

Meerkat

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The govt couldn't afford merged T&Cs unless the unions were prepared to set different pay rates that ensured overall train crew costs didn't materially change. This is likely to become a bone of contention in a couple of years once all operators nationalised and undermine the GBR if its not managed now which is why (S)GBR should have appointed senior staff by now to take the lead in areas like this its not as if DfT Operated Railways Ltd has a good track record on industrial relations.
The unions will pick the best wages and best T&Cs from each operator and then demand that for everybody, and go on strike.
 

dctraindriver

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Waterloo still has separate driver and guard messrooms I'm told. Barmy indeed. In fact the militaristic term "messroom" seems a bit of an anachronism.
Without going too off topic there is more than 1 Messroom due to limited floor space. Both guards and drivers tend to sit where they like and are not separated. May have been that way years back but not in the 10+ years I’ve been there.
 

anthony1972

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Labour's plan is to take passenger operations into public ownership when contracts with the TOCs expire, when will this be? Wikipedia lists "Core Term Expiry Dates" and "End Dates" - I'm not sure of the difference between the two.
In regards to public ownership do you think it is likely that jobs will go due to duplication. Such as management area customer service area and 2 assistant management.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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In regards to public ownership do you think it is likely that jobs will go due to duplication. Such as management area customer service area and 2 assistant management.
It will depend on how much the railway is integrated, and whether organised into geographical regions or business sectors.
As TOCs get merged, there will be fewer HQ jobs (MD, FD, HR, Legal, Marketing, Customer Services etc).
Front line jobs will probably be less affected unless services are reduced or combined.
Jobs currently with DfT and RDG might well be affected, and not everybody will want to move to Derby.
Merging TOC and NR functions is rarely discussed, but might be where some duplication will be removed.
 
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Meerkat

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It will depend on how much the railway is integrated, and whether organised into geographical regions or business sectors.
As TOCs get merged, there will be fewer HQ jobs (MD, FD, HR, Legal, Marketing, Customer Services etc).
Front line jobs will probably be less affected unless services are reduced or combined.
Jobs currently with DfT might well be affected, and not everybody will want to move to Derby.
Merging TOC and NR functions is rarely discussed, but might be where some duplication will be removed.
The TOCs don’t need to be merged for duplication to reduce. Things like HR, legal etc can be ‘contracted out’ to the GBR HR, as TOC owning groups did to themselves AIUI. You are still going to have an MD equivalent though, probably under any structure.
Remains to be seen whether that will be cheaper or better, and the nationalisation fans might get disappointed when HQ functions are amalgamated and contracted out to Capita or suchlike!
 

12LDA28C

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Yes. And for train crew and route knowledge. There are barmy stories of different train companies crew having different messrooms in the same location. Cross covering would be an advantage. Some drivers of old would have vast traction and route knowledge.

And of course the more wide-ranging the traction and route knowledge, the more difficult it is to maintain competence.
 

Mag_seven

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As we are no longer discussing TOC contract expiry dates we shall bring this discussion to a close. If any of the planned dates change as linked to in post #2 then we will reopen the thread.

Other threads that can be used to discuss the nationalisation issue can be found here:
 
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